Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[dctraindriver]

Depending on how you measure it, SWR are only running about 85% of their timetable of 4 years ago, and of course intended to supplement peak hour workings by Dec 2020 (in their franchise award promises).

So unless about 15% of staff have left in 4 years, and the few percent for the growth failed to be trained, there are lot of people sitting around who could be on training runs.

I know ASLEF are operating overtime bans, but it seems very unlikely that around 20% of work is permanently covered by overtime so no training can be done.

I can assure you there’s not a lot of people sitting around…..

 

[Urban Gateline]

I can assure you there’s not a lot of people sitting around…..

I can vouch for that too, ignoring the big engineering works around Staines, before that we rarely had Guards or Drivers just sat spare on Cover or As Ordered turns, the most 1 or 2 and quite often get called upon to cover trains at short notice, so definitely not loads of crew sitting about doing very little!

 

[nlogax]

SWR telling journalists that they have now accepted 47 units and are still aiming for the first trains to run in revenue service by the end of the year

Which may equate to a single inner suburban run sometime during Dec 31st..?

 

[TEW]

Which may equate to a single inner suburban run sometime during Dec 31st..?

I think at present the smart money would be on some kind on token service this year rather than a proper introduction.

 

[GeoffS]

SWR telling journalists that they have now accepted 47 units and are still aiming for the first trains to run in revenue service by the end of the year

Does anyone happen to now which are the latest 5 accepted after the previous summary of 42?
TIA

 

[Snow1964]

Does anyone happen to now which are the latest 5 accepted after the previous summary of 42?
TIA

No further charges have been registered by Rock Rail SW since June

Still 45 charges (42 trains, plus the general one, simulators, and specified spares)


Automerge,
update 31st August

Another charge (number 46) has been registered by Rock Rail covering unit 701 027, however this unit was already covered by charge 42

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

The updated list of 701s with charges to Deutche Bank Luxembourg is now

004, 006, 011, 012, 013, 014, 015, 016, 017, 018, 019, 022, 023, 024, 025, 026, 027, 028, 029, 030, 031, 032, 033, 034, 035, 037, 038, 040, 041, 042, 043, 044, 045, 046, 047, 048, 049, 050, 051, 052, 509, 512,

(40 units 10car, 2 units 5car)
410 vehicles of 750 (which is 54.66%)

Missing units are :
001-003, 005, 007-010, 020-021, 036, 039, 053-060,
501-508, 510-511, 513-530

 

[swr444]

Looks like SWR now wants guards to close the doors on the 701s...

 

[Boski]

Looks like SWR now wants guards to close the doors on the 701s...

Surely not…

 

[swt_passenger]

Looks like SWR now wants guards to close the doors on the 701s...

I thought that was already agreed? It’s mentioned earlier in this thread isn’t it?

 

[XCTurbostar]

Our Ref: BR2/0146

1st September 2023

Dear Colleague

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY

Further to my previous correspondence with regards to the above matter, I now write to advise you that the Lead Officer and Company Council Reps have recently attended a meeting with South Western Railway to discuss a proposed method of work for the introduction of the 701 fleet on the railway network. I have received a report from the Lead Officer indicating that South Western Railway document may fall outside of the dispute resolution that was agreed between both parties in 2021.

The matter has been subject to recent consideration by the union’s National Executive Committee who are deeply concerned to learn that SWR management seem confused over what was previously agreed with the RMT. Whilst the RMT is not opposed to certain proposed changes within the Guard roles and responsibilities, the Union must first ascertain what implications this has for RMT members.

Therefore, I have been instructed to write to South Western Railway to arrange an urgent Avoidance of Dispute meeting with the Lead Officer to review this matter and if necessary, review the Heads of Agreement documentation.

I have also been instructed to invite the Lead Officer and SWR Guards Company Council Reps to meet with the National Executive Committee as soon as practicable, to give a verbal report and discuss concerns directly with a view to resolving this matter.

I trust this keeps you fully advised on the matter and I will, of course, update you on any further developments.

Yours sincerely

Michael Lynch

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY

www.rmt.org.uk

 

[Boski]

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY

www.rmt.org.uk

Surely keeping control of doors is brilliant for guards? Why has the union taken a negative stance on this?!!

 

[swr444]

Surely keeping control of doors is brilliant for guards? Why has the union taken a negative stance on this?!!

They haven't, it's more to do with spending years in dispute regarding DOO/DCO and then the company doing a 180 after the agreement. Basically, there was a huge loss of pay from striking and now they're saying 'Never mind, you can control the doors anyway'.
If you read the article it says "Whilst the RMT is not opposed to certain proposed changes within the Guard roles and responsibilities, the Union must first ascertain what implications this has for RMT members."

I thought that was already agreed? It’s mentioned earlier in this thread isn’t it?

yes but it was just rumours

 

[Snow1964]

Rock rail have registered charge numbers 47-49. for 701 :
units 053, 508, 510

Now upto 430 vehicles of 750 (57.3%)

Missing units are :
001-003, 005, 007-010, 020-021, 036, 039, 054-060,
501-507, 511, 513-530

note unit 027 appears twice (charges 42 and 46), error ?

 

[Towers]

Is guards doing doors an effort at keeping driver training time to an absolute minimum, I wonder?

 

[Bigfoot]

Is guards doing doors an effort at keeping driver training time to an absolute minimum, I wonder?

The network doesn't require the time savings that dco supposedly would bring anymore.

 

[Goldfish62]

The network doesn't require the time savings that dco supposedly would bring anymore.

On that basis ABDO presumably won't be needed either.

 

[Fincra5]

On that basis ABDO presumably won't be needed either.

I get the feeling ABDO probably caused more issues than it was worth!

 

[Carlisle]

I thought that was already agreed? It’s mentioned earlier in this thread isn’t it?

Correct.

yes but it was just rumours

Not according to this BBC article when the deal was signed.

Long-running train guard dispute finally ends - BBC News

Guards on South Western Railway had fought plans for drivers to operate the doors on new trains.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[swr444]

Correct.


Not according to this BBC article when the deal was signed.

Long-running train guard dispute finally ends - BBC News

Guards on South Western Railway had fought plans for drivers to operate the doors on new trains.

www.bbc.co.uk

Nowhere here does it mention guards operating the doors

 

[Boski]

Nowhere here does it mention guards operating the doors

This is the original agreement to transfer doors to drivers no?

 

[swr444]

This is the original agreement to transfer doors to drivers no?

I think there must have been a misread of what was said earlier

 

[pompeyfan]

Where has it been said that SWR will give guards full close operation? It was always suggested that metro guards would occasionally work the trains conventionally to keep up competency in the event of DOO failure etc.

 

[Snow1964]

The network doesn't require the time savings that dco supposedly would bring anymore.

On that basis ABDO presumably won't be needed either.

I get the feeling ABDO probably caused more issues than it was worth!

Wasn't the short cabs another symptom of it, so the doors on two 5car units are in same place as 10car unit.

I am guessing if no longer needing ABDO then a version of software without it (like a 720) could be used for now.

 

[Goldfish62]

I am guessing if no longer needing ABDO then a version of software without it (like a 720) could be used for now.

I imagine stripping out ABDO functionality could very well mean putting the software back to square one.

Reading Modern Railways ABDO isn't planned to be used initially anyway. Sensibly the units will be allowed to bed in first.

 

[TEW]

Where has it been said that SWR will give guards full close operation? It was always suggested that metro guards would occasionally work the trains conventionally to keep up competency in the event of DOO failure etc.

The initial agreement made in 2021 was that guard's would not be trained on door operation on 701s, then as older stock was phased out Metro Guard's would work solely 701s and lose dispatch competency entirely.
In 2022 it was agreed that guard's would initially be trained on door operation on 701s for use in degraded working. This was time limited until May 2023, at which point Metro Guard's would lose dispatch competency.
SWR are now proposing that guard's are trained on door operation on 701s for use in degraded working indefinitely.

 

[cactustwirly]

The initial agreement made in 2021 was that guard's would not be trained on door operation on 701s, then as older stock was phased out Metro Guard's would work solely 701s and lose dispatch competency entirely.
In 2022 it was agreed that guard's would initially be trained on door operation on 701s for use in degraded working. This was time limited until May 2023, at which point Metro Guard's would lose dispatch competency.
SWR are now proposing that guard's are trained on door operation on 701s for use in degraded working indefinitely.

So why is that an issue with the RMT?

 

[Boski]

The initial agreement made in 2021 was that guard's would not be trained on door operation on 701s, then as older stock was phased out Metro Guard's would work solely 701s and lose dispatch competency entirely.
In 2022 it was agreed that guard's would initially be trained on door operation on 701s for use in degraded working. This was time limited until May 2023, at which point Metro Guard's would lose dispatch competency.
SWR are now proposing that guard's are trained on door operation on 701s for use in degraded working indefinitely.

Guards would have to work trains regularly then to keep competency up. I see this as an absolute win without even having a fight.

 

[TEW]

So why is that an issue with the RMT?

Read the letter linked above. The idea isn't, but SWR have tried to bring it in without consultation despite it being outside of an agreement previously made.

 

[Goldfish62]

Guards would have to work trains regularly then to keep competency up. I see this as an absolute win without even having a fight.

What I find more than slightly surprising is that the DfT have allowed SWR to give up on DCO when it was previously agreed. Quite astonishing in fact.

 

[Boski]

What I find more than slightly surprising is that the DfT have allowed SWR to give up on DCO when it was previously agreed. Quite astonishing in fact.

Suppose if its agreed that guards will be there then may aswell put them to use