Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

[43096]

I think the combined Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge services need around 40 units. This ties in with remarks either earlier in this thread or elsewhere that there are still going to be plenty of 450s on the Reading line due to the requirement for 458/5s to supplement the 707s.

While there are a fair number of services to/from Reading that really need extra capacity some shoulder-peak ones don't (eg the 0742 from Reading which does one trip in the AM peak only) and the resources are probably better used on the Hounslow loop, in particular.

The problem with looking at the Reading trains in isolation is that it's not the "beyond Staines" element that really needs the capacity. The Reading trains pick up a lot of passengers (partly because they are the "fastest" services) at the likes of Feltham, Twickenham and Richmond who would otherwise have to go on other trains.

There is therefore logic in using 10-458 on all Reading trains. They have similar seating capacity to 8-450, but offer much more standing room to pick up the Feltham/Twickenham/Richmond traffic.

 

[Class 170101]

And? The ROSCO took a chance and it hasn't paid off. That's the thing with risk, it can go bad as well as good.

However the ROSCO will probably get its money back by charging a higher figure for something else. I doubt they will lose somehow.

Additionally I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't see use on some local DC workings where the Dwell time isn't as critical even after 2022. Don't forget theHSTs are having their role changed yet some believe they should be scrapped as they are over 40 years old.

 

[D365]

Don't forget theHSTs are having their role changed yet some believe they should be scrapped as they are over 40 years old.

Their new roles are very much planned to be interim measures.

 

[Class377/5]

However the ROSCO will probably get its money back by charging a higher figure for something else. I doubt they will lose somehow.

Additionally I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't see use on some local DC workings where the Dwell time isn't as critical even after 2022. Don't forget theHSTs are having their role changed yet some believe they should be scrapped as they are over 40 years old.

That remains to be seen. However the DC workings won't be anything into Waterloo so that limits where you can use them on SWT. On the other DC networks, Southern/Thameslink/Merseyrail won't need them and its unlikely SE will want them either, especially if the 700s do work the Orpington and Rainham services.

 

[Goldfish62]

The problem with looking at the Reading trains in isolation is that it's not the "beyond Staines" element that really needs the capacity. The Reading trains pick up a lot of passengers (partly because they are the "fastest" services) at the likes of Feltham, Twickenham and Richmond who would otherwise have to go on other trains.

There is therefore logic in using 10-458 on all Reading trains. They have similar seating capacity to 8-450, but offer much more standing room to pick up the Feltham/Twickenham/Richmond traffic.

Yes, but that wasn't my point. The issue is that there are not enough 10 car trains to cover the whole Windsor lines network so they need to be allocated where most needed. I have used the Reading line for the past 25 years to commute to London so am certainly very much aware of where and when the pinch points are.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

The problem with looking at the Reading trains in isolation is that it's not the "beyond Staines" element that really needs the capacity. The Reading trains pick up a lot of passengers (partly because they are the "fastest" services) at the likes of Feltham, Twickenham and Richmond who would otherwise have to go on other trains.

There is therefore logic in using 10-458 on all Reading trains. They have similar seating capacity to 8-450, but offer much more standing room to pick up the Feltham/Twickenham/Richmond traffic.

As an old codger that puts comfort before speed I have long since given up on the Reading trains from Feltham. Indded sometimes I even resort to the Hounslow loop service to get a seat in the mornings. If more standing room is as good as it gets I am glad to be retiring in a couple of months.

 

[43096]

Yes, but that wasn't my point. The issue is that there are not enough 10 car trains to cover the whole Windsor lines network so they need to be allocated where most needed. I have used the Reading line for the past 25 years to commute to London so am certainly very much aware of where and when the pinch points are.

But the 707 order is not about making the Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge service all 10-car. Those routes have already got 25% longer trains and the remaining single set operation is largely on contra-peak workings. The 707s are largely to enable a 3-way capacity lift by cascade:
- Reading line 10-car.
- Further strengthening of main line services from 8- to 12-car.
- Enable more 10-car operation on the main suburban side.

 

[Goldfish62]

But the 707 order is not about making the Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge service all 10-car. Those routes have already got 25% longer trains and the remaining single set operation is largely on contra-peak workings. The 707s are largely to enable a 3-way capacity lift by cascade:
- Reading line 10-car.
- Further strengthening of main line services from 8- to 12-car.
- Enable more 10-car operation on the main suburban side.

I'm not going to respond anymore as I'm clearly not explaining myself well!

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

Are the 3 707s at Clapham Junction still 1, 3 & 4 or have some new ones arrived recently?

 

[spark001uk]

Are the 3 707s at Clapham Junction still 1, 3 & 4 or have some new ones arrived recently?

I'm pretty sure it's still just those 3 yes.

 

[urpert]

3 was certainly there and visible yesterday.

 

[spark001uk]

001 is still in no.7 Road in the shed with its rather unwanted paint job.

 

[Class377/5]

Are the 3 707s at Clapham Junction still 1, 3 & 4 or have some new ones arrived recently?

Believe it's next week for the 4th with 5 and 6 following on a couple of weeks later. (not inside info but what I've heard).

 

[Driver@swt]

001 is still in no.7 Road in the shed with its rather unwanted paint job.

The graffitti on unit one is long gone!
2 and 6 next to arrive.

 

[spark001uk]

The graffitti on unit one is long gone!
2 and 6 next to arrive.

Thanks for info. Also good news about 001.

 

[Peter Sarf]

On Sunday 08/01/2017 unit 707001 was still in the shed at Clapham Junction near to platform 7. It had the class 20 parked in front of it but I managed to id it from the foot bridge. Also 707003 was visible from the foot bridge. It was in the sidings near to the shed but further NW. It was dark but 707003 appeared to be near enough to the footbridge for a second unit to be behind which I assumed might be 707004 ?.

I did not have time to explore any further as I was breaking my journey on Oyster pre-pay and did not want to invoke the wrath of the system punishing me for taking too long getting from Victoria to Croydon !. Alternative was to touch out and go explore from the road that runs under the Windsor lines at the country end of the station. I seem to remember some glimpses of the other end of the sidings can be had from thereabouts - that was more than twenty years ago though.

 

[spark001uk]

On Sunday 08/01/2017 unit 707001 was still in the shed at Clapham Junction near to platform 7. It had the class 20 parked in front of it but I managed to id it from the foot bridge. Also 707003 was visible from the foot bridge. It was in the sidings near to the shed but further NW. It was dark but 707003 appeared to be near enough to the footbridge for a second unit to be behind which I assumed might be 707004 ?.

I did not have time to explore any further as I was breaking my journey on Oyster pre-pay and did not want to invoke the wrath of the system punishing me for taking too long getting from Victoria to Croydon !. Alternative was to touch out and go explore from the road that runs under the Windsor lines at the country end of the station. I seem to remember some glimpses of the other end of the sidings can be had from thereabouts - that was more than twenty years ago though.

You are correct, I was at Clapham on 5th Jan and got this (quite nice I think) photo from the windows of the footbridge. 003 London end, 004 behind it. Then I went down onto 7 to see if I could get a better shot, and perhaps a shot of 001, and as luck would have it I was treated to a cold start and movement of that class 20, from the line right adjacent to the platform.!

 

[D365]

You are correct, I was at Clapham on 5th Jan and got this (quite nice I think) photo from the windows of the footbridge. 003 London end, 004 behind it. Then I went down onto 7 to see if I could get a better shot, and perhaps a shot of 001, and as luck would have it I was treated to a cold start and movement of that class 20, from the line right adjacent to the platform.!

Looks very different to the 'classic' Desiro units doesn't it!

 

[spark001uk]

Looks very different to the 'classic' Desiro units doesn't it!

And on the inside no doubt, especially the lack of toilets! Mind you, it won't make much difference when replacing the 458s cos their toilets spend most of their time LOOU anyway! Just the other day I went to use one (it wasn't locked), lifted the lid only to find it was up to the brim with, erm, well you get the picture.
So at least with no loos they won't have that to worry about. Let's just hope no drunks get too desperate though eh. I had a stint cleaning 455s at Staines CHS back in the 80s, and I'd rather forget some of what we had to clean up!

 

[Juniper Driver]

Just wonder why they didn't order another 30 450 HC 5 car units...As yet again we have a unit incomparable with other units.Southern seem to have the right idea with most being 377 units.We could probably do with their 455's.

I suppose the toilet thing on the 450's must be a problem to keep emptying all the time.It was much simpler in the Slam door days but obviously less hygienic.

 

[MCR247]

450s are an old design, surely the 707 is just the 2016 equivalent?

 

[D365]

Not to mention that the Desiro City is more capable at crush-loading (if needed) than pretty much any prior units.

 

[spark001uk]

450s are an old design, surely the 707 is just the 2016 equivalent?

Not an old design as such, just a different model. The desiro city range has been primarily designed for inner suburban high volume commuter travel, whereas the standard desiro are designed for outer suburban / long distance use.

 

[AM9]

450s are an old design, surely the 707 is just the 2016 equivalent?

Well:

much lower through-life cost,
lower cost of including current and future safety and communication systems, higher passenger capacity,
lower energy consumption,
(probably) lower track access charges,
better performance (acceleration) ...
​

... not a difficult decision when compared with a design that is between 1/3 and 1/2 way through its expected full-service life.

 

[Class377/5]

Just wonder why they didn't order another 30 450 HC 5 car units...As yet again we have a unit incomparable with other units.Southern seem to have the right idea with most being 377 units.We could probably do with their 455's.

I suppose the toilet thing on the 450's must be a problem to keep emptying all the time.It was much simpler in the Slam door days but obviously less hygienic.

Because you can't order the old Desiro model like you can't order the 377 model any more. Both design are now longer in production. The reason they have lots of 377s that do with with each other is they kept ordering units for many years.

The GatEx 387s won't work in service with the 377 fleet because the no longer made a comparable product for passengers (they is rescue and ECS abilities only).

As for incompatible stock, depends on what the winner of the new franchise does as they might not order a Desiro City. That said, not like the existing stock is all compatible anyway.

 

[Class377/5]

Not an old design as such, just a different model. The desiro city range has been primarily designed for inner suburban high volume commuter travel, whereas the standard desiro are designed for outer suburban / long distance use.

Not true. The Desiro City has replaced the Desiro UK (350450) completely. There's even a version to replace the 444 using a Desiro City frame but 23m length called the Verve.

The interiors make the difference for each market and can be tailors to the buyers needs.

 

[spark001uk]

Not true. The Desiro City has replaced the Desiro UK (350450) completely. There's even a version to replace the 444 using a Desiro City frame but 23m length called the Verve.

The interiors make the difference for each market and can be tailors to the buyers needs.

You miss my point. I didn't say they weren't going to replace the 350/444/450 range, I just said the city range - as so far made (for swt for example) - has a different purpose in mind, for high volume suburban use.

 

[MCR247]

But my point is if you went to Siemens with the same spec they received for the original desiro order, you would get a Desiro city with 2+3 seating and a gangway and a toilet, so a slightly different 707. Is the difference between inner and outer suburban really that different?

 

[spark001uk]

It's whatever the customer orders I guess. What makes me chuckle lately is the 700 is a longer distance unit (plus commuter in peak), yet it has no tables, power sockets or WiFi, yet the inner suburban purposed 707 has power sockets and WiFi. You'd have thought those two features to be on the 700s! But then it's up to the customer I suppose, what do I know!

 

[Class377/5]

But my point is if you went to Siemens with the same spec they received for the original desiro order, you would get a Desiro city with 2+3 seating and a gangway and a toilet, so a slightly different 707. Is the difference between inner and outer suburban really that different?

Very little difference. With the Desiro City Siemens design a shell that's universal but the interior is up to the buyer. The 313/317/319/321 is the same basic shell but look at the differences.