Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

[Class377/5]

Why would hauled (brakes working) units need to be signalling-compatible? Surely just the hauling loco would need to be. Does the entire rake of old container wagons, etc., travel with the unit from start to finish, or are various different rakes used across Europe?

Because EMUs are built so the unit would be live for working brakes even if hauled so it would have to be compatible with all the route plus an alternative. You cannot have the brakes working and the rest of the unit be dead without major alterations to how the unit works.

So to make things simple they simply haul the unit dead so there are no issues.

 

[BRX]

Having operable brakes to allow sensible haulage (i.e. without a freight train accompanying each delivery) surely doesn't necessarily require full main line certification for dead haulage, otherwise it would not be permissible to move the units by rail in any state. They must be certified for the main line in some form if they are running on the network; even if un-powered, un-braked and hauled, they are still on the rails.

I know there are hurdles here, but the railway, at least in many spheres of operation, seems to be becoming less and less energy-efficient, not more. All such efficiencies seem to be lumped into the 'too-difficult' category and the option of least resistance is taken.

Same always occurs to me each time I see a 92 being hauled dead (with or without a train attached) by a 66 on runs between Dollands and Wembley. It's rare to see it the other way around. I'm sure there are reasons for this I might not be aware of, but you'd think the first choice ought to be that when you want to move two locos, you have the most efficient one providing the power. And that's aside from pollution issues.

By the way I noted that when the Pendolino extensions were delivered through the tunnel a couple of years ago, they ran on the uk side at least without the giant rake of wagons used for other deliveries including the 707s.

 

[HeelBurton]

SW trains say these come into service between June and December 2017. Is that right? A few people on here have mentioned March to July 2017 and the entry window for all 30 units.

Reading paperwork at work.

January 2017 third and fourth units arrive in the U.K. and go into testing on network.

Feb 2017 drives and guards begin their 707 training.

Spring 2017 fault free running is expected to begin.

March 2017 is the acceptance of the first unit.

April 2017 first unit will start running followed by two units every fortnight.

June 2017 the final 707 construction will be complete and September 2017 all units will be running in the network.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[43096]

Because EMUs are built so the unit would be live for working brakes even if hauled so it would have to be compatible with all the route plus an alternative. You cannot have the brakes working and the rest of the unit be dead without major alterations to how the unit works.



So to make things simple they simply haul the unit dead so there are no issues.

There is also the complication that to do otherwise would involve clearance being required across 4 countries - Germany, Belgium, France and U.K. - and 5 infrastructure owners (DB Netze, Infrabel, SNCF Réseau, Eurotunnel and NR). Not realistically going to happen!

 

[Class377/5]

There is also the complication that to do otherwise would involve clearance being required across 4 countries - Germany, Belgium, France and U.K. Not realistically going to happen!

I have stated this various times but seems the message did not sink in. I don't think people understand how expensive getting clearance for units in multiple countries would be and delay the delivery by months and that would be even if the 700s were somehow cleared too.

 

[spark001uk]

Just by coincidence saw 66001 today. Looks a right state!

 

[D365]

Maybe not but it can still be used for training drivers

A train can't be operated on the mainline without mainline certification :roll:

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Just by coincidence saw 66001 today. Looks a right state!

Just needs someone to write in the crap on the side "Also available in red"

A train can't be operated on the mainline without mainline certification :roll:

Doesn't stop a train from being towed to a test track

 

[D365]

Doesn't stop a train from being towed to a test track

Your original question was why they couldn't be commissioned at Dollands Moor, I've only been on about that.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I know 458s go back to the readings but where will the spare 450s go as any attempt to replace 444 workings is rarely welcome

I doubt all 36 units will be working the Reading route at the same time.

 

[TEW]

The latest information I'd seen didn't even have all Reading diagrams as 458s, still showed some diagrams as 450s. Doesn't look like it will be quite as simple as perhaps had been assumed.

 

[Goldfish62]

The latest information I'd seen didn't even have all Reading diagrams as 458s, still showed some diagrams as 450s. Doesn't look like it will be quite as simple as perhaps had been assumed.

That's interesting. I think I'm right in saying that 30 units is not enough to cover all intended diagrams, so maybe there will still be some 458/5s on Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge services.

The Reading services, I think, require 26 units so maybe some will be used elsewhere, eg Alton peak services. Just surmising.

 

[43096]

That's interesting. I think I'm right in saying that 30 units is not enough to cover all intended diagrams, so maybe there will still be some 458/5s on Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge services.

The Reading services, I think, require 26 units so maybe some will be used elsewhere, eg Alton peak services. Just surmising.

That seems right for the Reading turns - always used to be 11 458 pairs and one 450 pair in the old days of 4-car 458s. There's been an extra up morning peak train added (0623 Reading-Waterloo) which also requires a pair of units, which gives the 26 sets you quote.

 

[TEW]

That's interesting. I think I'm right in saying that 30 units is not enough to cover all intended diagrams, so maybe there will still be some 458/5s on Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge services.

The Reading services, I think, require 26 units so maybe some will be used elsewhere, eg Alton peak services. Just surmising.

It appears there will still be 458/5s on plenty of Windsor/Weybridge/Hounslow services. It makes sense as Reading was never going to need all the 458/5s. I'd be surprised to see 458s to Alton, the one current diagram is already unpopular enough with the locals and most the current peak services are 12-car 450s.

 

[Bigfoot]

Don't forget the next franchise wants to double the number of reading services and if memory serves Windsors too.

 

[43096]

Don't forget the next franchise wants to double the number of reading services and if memory serves Windsors too.

True. The Reading doubling is off-peak/contra-peak - the peak is already 4tph - and wouldn't require any/many extra units as it would just mean using the current units all day.

Windsor 4tph will require 10 extra units, assuming they go 10-car for all 4 trains. How all that lot gets pathed, I have no idea: the current peak timetable doesn't work as it is.

With the extra units for the Windsors, plus likely need to replace the 455/456 fleet, I would expect an order of something around 100 more 707s in the new franchise.

 

[spark001uk]

Don't forget the next franchise wants to double the number of reading services and if memory serves Windsors too.

The 707 diagrams need to be quite frequent too, for the people that need to get off to go to the toilet and then wait for the next train!

Actually having said that, same probably applies to the 458s as theirs seem to be almost always locked out!

 

[Bigfoot]

Swt are making a big point of how modular the 707s are. Plugging how toilets are ready to go under the floor, for class easily added, the desiro city design is modular as a train, more coaches could be ordered and relatively easily simply slotted on to make some fixed 10 coach formations with 5s too, or a large fleet of all 5 coach units who knows. February will be interesting!

 

[westcoaster]

Thanks. As a matter of interest, why can't the brakes on units being delivered
be operable?

On a 700 you have rheo and regeneration brakes unit has to be live for them to work, you also have disk and tread brakes, there is also a parking brake. For all these systems to work together or separately the unit needs to be cut in and talking to a master unit which would need to be fitted to the hauling loco.

What I suspect happens is that the 700 or 707 is completely cut out / dead in tow, and brakes isolated. When the unit is dead the parking brakes will apply due to low main air pressure in the braking system.
What i suspect they do on delivery is charge up the rescue pipe (700's have 2 air pipes throughout the train), this will release the parking brakes, and also be the through air supply to allow the brake force weapons at the rear to work.

 

[Bigfoot]

https://youtu.be/k4EDp0BO1NI

Swt posted this internal sneak peak footage, trying to work out if it's a UK run or the test track in Germany. Any ideas?

 

[03_179]

I've heard that the same technology to be 'driverless' through the core on Thameslink will be tested out of Waterloo from March time ...

Is this true ?

 

[D365]

I've heard that the same technology to be 'driverless' through the core on Thameslink will be tested out of Waterloo from March time ...

Is this true ?

I've heard nothing about ATO being fitted on any Waterloo route so far. In terms of testing for Thameslink operation, there's the Hertford Loop facility.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've heard that the same technology to be 'driverless' through the core on Thameslink will be tested out of Waterloo from March time ...

Is this true ?

It could be they will use an ASDO system that can including auto door opening like the 700s do at certain stations, but full ATO (i.e. train driving), cannot be used on the SW network, as surely there is no trackside infrastructure for ATO, neither is it intended.

 

[spark001uk]

https://youtu.be/k4EDp0BO1NI

Swt posted this internal sneak peak footage, trying to work out if it's a UK run or the test track in Germany. Any ideas?

I doubt it's UK, there's only one unit here and I believe it's still at Clapham, uncommissioned and wearing a very large piece of graffiti.

 

[D365]

I doubt it's UK, there's only one unit here and I believe it's still at Clapham, uncommissioned and wearing a very large piece of graffiti.

If that's how Lambeth treats its new trains, we'll be happy to rehome them 'up north'

 

[dmncf]

I've heard that the same technology to be 'driverless' through the core on Thameslink will be tested out of Waterloo from March time ...

Is this true ?

Is this perhaps a reference to a 'driver advisory system' (DAS) that informs rather than replaces the driver?

 

[Matt Taylor]

I was in Clapham yard this morning, it hasn't moved, it's still covered in graffiti and there are 'no entry' stickers on the cab doors!

 

[superalbs]

https://youtu.be/k4EDp0BO1NI

Swt posted this internal sneak peak footage, trying to work out if it's a UK run or the test track in Germany. Any ideas?

Well if the PIS is anything to go by...Weymouth!! :P

http://image.prntscr.com/image/281f5e0b7cc84c9b8c6a1cac1eea456e.png

 

[spark001uk]

Well if the PIS is anything to go by...Weymouth!! :P

http://image.prntscr.com/image/281f5e0b7cc84c9b8c6a1cac1eea456e.png

According to swt that's now "Sleighmouth"!

 

[Matt Taylor]

The video was in Germany, the only daylight movement of a Class 707 in the UK so far has been a shunt from road 49 to road 9 at Clapham. And here is a clear shot of it finally:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/31396026640