Class 730 LNR & WMR Delivery/test Updates

[Bletchleyite]

As is Northampton - Euston, but NRES shows them all as standard only after May 22. There will be a reduction in revenue by its abolition but I'm struggling to see how the greater associated costs savings will accrue, bearing in mind the stock has first accommodation at the moment.

The additional Standard capacity may mean some trains can run shorter (fewer 12 cars needed), or that there are fewer complaints of overcrowding to deal with. It adds up to about 2/3 of a coach* on a double set (as most trains are).

Possibly also less vandalism by everyone being there rather than just fare-dodging chavs as is the case off peak, though that could be fixed by making reasonably priced off peak 1st fares (at present there are only Anytimes, so the markup at super-off-peak time is something like 500%).

* 3 bays of 1st in each set, a full intermediate is 8 bays.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The additional Standard capacity may mean some trains can run shorter (fewer 12 cars needed), or that there are fewer complaints of overcrowding to deal with. It adds up to about 2/3 of a coach* on a double set (as most trains are).

I'm not trying to 'pingpong' - you seem to be assuming that the former first class passengers will no longer travel, but if they transfer to standard I don't see how it solves overcrowding much. In the case of all except the 350/2s the density of seating in the first is about the same as in standard, so its abolition won't increase the number of vacant seats by much if the former first passengers continue to travel, but obviously at standard . The usual occupancy of first at busy times on Northampton trains is 50 - 75% and on the occasion of ticket checks the great majority have first tickets (usually about one offender). No longer standing in even the front irst class on the 17.45 ex Euston (12 cars) I accept.


My cynicism about the re-seating of the 760s is a 5 car with 2+3 seats might be used to replace an 8 car 2+2.

Edited (italics) to be clearer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not trying to 'pingpong' - you seem to be assuming that the former first class passengers will no longer travel, but if they transfer to standard I don't see how it solves overcrowding much. In the case of all except the 350/2s the density of seating in the first is about the same as in standard, so its abolition won't increase the number of vacant seats by much if the former first passengers continue to travel, but obviously at standard . The usual occupancy of first at busy times on Northampton trains is 50 - 75% and on the occasion of ticket checks the great majority have first tickets (usually about one offender). No longer standing in even the front irst class on the 17.45 ex Euston (12 cars) I accept.

But off peak things are very different. There's heading towards being serious overcrowding on some of the Saturday daytime Birminghams, for instance, and 1st occupancy is very low on those (I bet the number paying is 0 due to the massive markup, or possibly the odd Advance). So you might still need 12-cars on the main commuter services, but you might manage to stave off needing them on the Birminghams, on which they're an operational nightmare because you have to pop them on and off at Northampton.

I seem to recall the post 720 plan is now 350s on the Birminghams, 720s on more or less everything else, which does fit around the 8-car formation length being close to optimal there.

I would have said the vomit comets, but people just sit there anyway on those, some guards declassify but most just stay in the cab for their own sanity. I do often quip about lazy LNR guards, but I don't blame them for staying hidden out of Euston after 2100 or so, while they're probably better behaved than routes out of e.g. Manchester they can be lively.

My cynicism about the re-seating of the 760s is a 5 car with 2+3 seats might be used to replace an 8 car 2+2.

That's long been a concern of mine because it's exactly what Greater Anglia did with their monstrosities. However I do wonder if narrow 2+2 would achieve that better by creating more standee space. I'm thus still wondering whether the 2+2 will be wide 2+2, or if all the units (WMR and LNR) will be the narrow 2+2 the WMR ones are definitely having.

 

[Merle Haggard]

But off peak things are very different. There's heading towards being serious overcrowding on some of the Saturday daytime Birminghams, for instance, and 1st occupancy is very low on those (I bet the number paying is 0 due to the massive markup, or possibly the odd Advance). So you might still need 12-cars on the main commuter services, but you might manage to stave off needing them on the Birminghams, on which they're an operational nightmare because you have to pop them on and off at Northampton.

I seem to recall the post 720 plan is now 350s on the Birminghams, 720s on more or less everything else, which does fit around the 8-car formation length being close to optimal there.

I would have said the vomit comets, but people just sit there anyway on those, some guards declassify but most just stay in the cab for their own sanity. I do often quip about lazy LNR guards, but I don't blame them for staying hidden out of Euston after 2100 or so, while they're probably better behaved than routes out of e.g. Manchester they can be lively.

Yes thanks, can see the logic.

That's long been a concern of mine because it's exactly what Greater Anglia did with their monstrosities. However I do wonder if narrow 2+2 would achieve that better by creating more standee space. I'm thus still wondering whether the 2+2 will be wide 2+2, or if all the units (WMR and LNR) will be the narrow 2+2 the WMR ones are definitely having.

A bulb has just lit up in my head . Well spotted, will be the latter I think...

 

[AJDesiro]

But off peak things are very different. There's heading towards being serious overcrowding on some of the Saturday daytime Birminghams, for instance, and 1st occupancy is very low on those (I bet the number paying is 0 due to the massive markup, or possibly the odd Advance). So you might still need 12-cars on the main commuter services, but you might manage to stave off needing them on the Birminghams, on which they're an operational nightmare because you have to pop them on and off at Northampton.

I seem to recall the post 720 plan is now 350s on the Birminghams, 720s on more or less everything else, which does fit around the 8-car formation length being close to optimal there.

I would have said the vomit comets, but people just sit there anyway on those, some guards declassify but most just stay in the cab for their own sanity. I do often quip about lazy LNR guards, but I don't blame them for staying hidden out of Euston after 2100 or so, while they're probably better behaved than routes out of e.g. Manchester they can be lively.



That's long been a concern of mine because it's exactly what Greater Anglia did with their monstrosities. However I do wonder if narrow 2+2 would achieve that better by creating more standee space. I'm thus still wondering whether the 2+2 will be wide 2+2, or if all the units (WMR and LNR) will be the narrow 2+2 the WMR ones are definitely having.

I spoke to a director present at the 196 launch a few months ago, who said that the LNR units would have an “intercity style 2+2 interior” with armrests. So presumably that means that they will have the interiors originally planned for the 730/2 fleet, which would make sense considering that Modern Railways reported (March 2023, Pg 53) that the subclasses for the units would be 730/0 (WMR) and 730/2 (LNR). Although knowing the whole 730 shambles, I wouldn't be surprised if they changed it again. If the plan is still to use them on Euston-Crewe's (a good 2-hour journey, of which many people travel the whole length), it'd be rather unfortunate to see them have narrow 2+2 interiors.

I've noticed some paths on RTT, I don't know how long they've been there. They're from Bletchley TMD to Bletchly TMD, turning around at Rugby and going via Northampton both ways, headcodes are prefixed with 5Q and operated by WMT as ECS. Are these the planned driver training paths, or are these something else? I've attached one below. Many thanks.

Realtime Trains | 5Q80 1002 Bletchley T.M.D. to Bletchley T.M.D. | 11/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q80 1002 departure from Bletchley T.M.D. to Bletchley T.M.D. on 11/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I've noticed some paths on RTT, I don't know how long they've been there. They're from Bletchley TMD to Bletchly TMD, turning around at Rugby and going via Northampton both ways, headcodes are prefixed with 5Q and operated by WMT as ECS. Are these the planned driver training paths, or are these something else? I've attached one below. Many thanks.

Realtime Trains | 5Q80 1002 Bletchley T.M.D. to Bletchley T.M.D. | 11/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q80 1002 departure from Bletchley T.M.D. to Bletchley T.M.D. on 11/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Yes, these are the traction training routes for Bletchley drivers.

 

[Intercity110]

Yes, these are the traction training routes for Bletchley drivers.

will they run on the weekends?

 

[AJDesiro]

Yes, these are the traction training routes for Bletchley drivers.

Good to hear, gives me hope that there may be light at the end of the tunnel then.

 

[DJH1971]

Good to hear, gives me hope that there may be light at the end of the tunnel then.

A sign that they are a bit nearer to entering service.

 

[778]

A sign that they are a bit nearer to entering service.

Do you think they will be in service by May or is that a bit optimistic? Would you expect the 5 car 730s to be in service by the end of 2024? Only 2 have been yet, so I can't see any being in service this year.

I spoke to a director present at the 196 launch a few months ago, who said that the LNR units would have an “intercity style 2+2 interior” with armrests. So presumably that means that they will have the interiors originally planned for the 730/2 fleet, which would make sense considering that Modern Railways reported (March 2023, Pg 53) that the subclasses for the units would be 730/0 (WMR) and 730/2 (LNR). Although knowing the whole 730 shambles, I wouldn't be surprised if they changed it again. If the plan is still to use them on Euston-Crewe's (a good 2-hour journey, of which many people travel the whole length), it'd be rather unfortunate to see them have narrow 2+2 interiors.

Will there only be one subclass of LNR 730 now? An intercity style 2+2 interior with tables would be a bit much for services to Tring or Milton Keynes, but equally 3+2 seating would be unsuitable for
London-Crewe or Birmingham-Liverpool.

One thing they could do is use them for Birmingham-Crewe services (1 hour journey?), as well as outer suburban services from Euston. 3+2 seating for the whole class would make sense then. Really hope they will have 2+2 seating, but they will probably be 3+2 in the end.

 

[AJDesiro]

Do you think they will be in service by May or is that a bit optimistic? Would you expect the 5 car 730s to be in service by the end of 2024? Only 2 have been yet, so I can't see any being in service this year.


Will there only be one subclass of LNR 730 now? An intercity style 2+2 interior with tables would be a bit much for services to Tring or Milton Keynes, but equally 3+2 seating would be unsuitable for
London-Crewe or Birmingham-Liverpool.

One thing they could do is use them for Birmingham-Crewe services (1 hour journey?), as well as outer suburban services from Euston. 3+2 seating for the whole class would make sense then. Really hope they will have 2+2 seating, but they will probably be 3+2 in the end.

If Modern Railways is anything to go by, all of the LNR units will be subclassed as 730/2s, a 2+2 seating layour is no different to what runs on the Tring/MK stoppers half the time at the moment. It would be incredibly foolish to specify a 3+2 layout, especially considering the backlash it has received on the 720s (even though 3+2 730s would've had 424 seats, as opposed to 544 seats on a 720). A 2+2 layout would allow for faster dwell times, even with tables, as people can cram down the aisles significantly faster than 3+2, where on a 24m Aventra, you'd be lucky to even be able to stand in the aisle. The LNR units are meant to be used on Tring/MKC services, along with Euston-Crewe services, which means that around 18 units (based on a quick look on RTT, could be entirely inaccurate) would be in use, around half of the fleet - who knows what'll happen, things seem to change all the time with the 730s.

 

[778]

If Modern Railways is anything to go by, all of the LNR units will be subclassed as 730/2s, a 2+2 seating layour is no different to what runs on the Tring/MK stoppers half the time at the moment. It would be incredibly foolish to specify a 3+2 layout, especially considering the backlash it has received on the 720s (even though 3+2 730s would've had 424 seats, as opposed to 544 seats on a 720). A 2+2 layout would allow for faster dwell times, even with tables, as people can cram down the aisles significantly faster than 3+2, where on a 24m Aventra, you'd be lucky to even be able to stand in the aisle. The LNR units are meant to be used on Tring/MKC services, along with Euston-Crewe services, which means that around 18 units (based on a quick look on RTT, could be entirely inaccurate) would be in use, around half of the fleet - who knows what'll happen, things seem to change all the time with the 730s.

When you say 18 units would be in use do you mean 18 units running as 5 car trains or in 10 car formations?

I am surprised that the 720s have 120 more seats that the 730s, considering that they are around the same length? I have not been on a 720 yet, but with that amount of seats, there probably would be no standing passengers at all, even at the busiest times, especially if they run as 10 car trains.

 

[Alfie1014]

When you say 18 units would be in use do you mean 18 units running as 5 car trains or in 10 car formations?

I am surprised that the 720s have 120 more seats that the 730s, considering that they are around the same length? I have not been on a 720 yet, but with that amount of seats, there probably would be no standing passengers at all, even at the busiest times, especially if they run as 10 car trains.

Except even at quiet times some people prefer to stand or use the perch or tip up seats than force their way down the aisles and into middle seats. Standing out of choice is much more prevalent on 720s compared to what it was on 321/360s.

 

[AJDesiro]

When you say 18 units would be in use do you mean 18 units running as 5 car trains or in 10 car formations?

I am surprised that the 720s have 120 more seats that the 730s, considering that they are around the same length? I have not been on a 720 yet, but with that amount of seats, there probably would be no standing passengers at all, even at the busiest times, especially if they run as 10 car trains.

Sorry, I meant that’d be as 5 car units. Presumably since the LNR units are the same length as a 6 car 350 they’d be able to get away with some shorter trains.

I was only accounting for standard class seats in my figures, but I don’t think 2/3s of a carriage could fit 120 seats. I’d imagine the 720s would have more 3+2 sections than the LNR units would’ve had, hence the difference in seating figures on the respective operator’s national rail contracts.

 

[778]

Sorry, I meant that’d be as 5 car units. Presumably since the LNR units are the same length as a 6 car 350 they’d be able to get away with some shorter trains.

I was only accounting for standard class seats in my figures, but I don’t think 2/3s of a carriage could fit 120 seats. I’d imagine the 720s would have more 3+2 sections than the LNR units would’ve had, hence the difference in seating figures on the respective operator’s national rail contracts.

It will probably be a long time before we see the 5 car 730s in service anyway. When the three car 730s are introduced would some of the 350/2s be withdrawn, as well as the 319s?

 

[315801]

As the class 350s are newer than the 319s I imagine they will be redeployed to other operators.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It will probably be a long time before we see the 5 car 730s in service anyway. When the three car 730s are introduced would some of the 350/2s be withdrawn, as well as the 319s?

I don't believe the 350/2 will go before the LNR 5 cars enter service. The WMR 3 cars are temporarily replacing the 319s and then will be going to replace the 323s. Or that was the plan at least.

We've finally had internal Comms re:1st class. As has been mentioned up thread, all WMR/LNR units will have 1st class removed, so any 730s currently with 1st class will also have it removed.

I have responded to Head of Customer Experience stating my thoughts on this.

 

[JonathanH]

As the class 350s are newer than the 319s I imagine they will be redeployed to other operators.

Redeployment only happens if another operator has use for those units. It isn't just a matter of units becoming available. At the moment it is considered likely that the 350s will not be redeployed, as there is no obvious demand elsewhere.

It will probably be a long time before we see the 5 car 730s in service anyway.

If the drivers are trained, and accept the 3-car 730s, won't the introduction of 5-car 730s be relatively quick once they are built?

 

[Wyrleybart]

If the drivers are trained, and accept the 3-car 730s, won't the introduction of 5-car 730s be relatively quick once they are built?

I would say so. The 5 car 730s are apparently rated at 110mph compared to the 90mph 730/0s, but whether that extends to gear ratios on the traction equipment, or is just electric restrictions, I don't think has been disclosed yet.

Also, there will be less 730/1s and no 730/2s in favour of more 730/0s. I guess this only really means diferences to seating and livery, but more driving cars to convert thew five car build into a three car build.

 

[rjames87]

I don't believe the 350/2 will go before the LNR 5 cars enter service. The WMR 3 cars are temporarily replacing the 319s and then will be going to replace the 323s. Or that was the plan at least.

We've finally had internal Comms re:1st class. As has been mentioned up thread, all WMR/LNR units will have 1st class removed, so any 730s currently with 1st class will also have it removed.

I have responded to Head of Customer Experience stating my thoughts on this.

Presume this is just declassification of the 1st class area, rather than installing the same style seating as standard?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Presume this is just declassification of the 1st class area, rather than installing the same style seating as standard?

Still a wast of money to spec first class carriages to then not sell premium tickets, even if the cost difference isn't much. On current stock it will simply be to remove stickers and lock the doors permanently open or remove the doors

 

[3973EXL]

37884 730007

Realtime Trains | 5Q65 1027 Loughborough Brush to Oxley Car. M.D. | 17/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q65 1027 departure from Loughborough Brush to Oxley Car. M.D. on 17/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Mikey C]

Operationally, the 350/2s are mixed up with the rest of the 350 fleet, whereas the 730s will have to be kept separate, so they'll lose a lot of flexibility?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Operationally, the 350/2s are mixed up with the rest of the 350 fleet, whereas the 730s will have to be kept separate, so they'll lose a lot of flexibility?

Probably not a huge amount, as the four LNR service groups (Liverpool-Brum, Euston-Brum, Euston-Crewe and a combination of Euston-MKC and Tring) are diagrammed separately even if the units are run as one big pool. They weren't before (e.g. for a long time the 1824/1829/1830 Northampton local came off an inbound Crewe), so the new timetable probably changed this so as to allow the 730s to fit better on specific routes.

 

[Techniquest]

I saw 730024 at Lichfield Trent Valley today, it looked and sounded good. I appreciated the 3-digit number above the driver's cab on the roof too, that will come in handy in times ahead to ID them in a hurry!

 

[jhy44]

I saw 730024 at Lichfield Trent Valley today, it looked and sounded good. I appreciated the 3-digit number above the driver's cab on the roof too, that will come in handy in times ahead to ID them in a hurry!

I was hoping the hideous orange and purple livery would grow on me but, here we are years later and it still makes me gag.
What on earth were the design team thinking

 

[Bald Rick]

I was hoping the hideous orange and purple livery would grow on me but, here we are years later and it still makes me gag.
What on earth were the design team thinking

presumably it represents the two most important things that hail from the West Midlands - Cadbury’s and Wolves.

 

[Techniquest]

I was hoping the hideous orange and purple livery would grow on me but, here we are years later and it still makes me gag.
What on earth were the design team thinking

I like it, I wasn't too sure at first but it's become one of my favourite liveries. Mind you, given orange is my favourite colour, I am biased!

 

[The_Train]

I was hoping the hideous orange and purple livery would grow on me but, here we are years later and it still makes me gag.
What on earth were the design team thinking

If the colour of a train makes you gag, you should probably visit the doctor as I'm not quite sure that should be happening

 

[rogercov]

730024 again
At Nuneaton today