Compulsory Reservations- Poll

[Taunton]

If rail services are to follow airline methods, I presume the same approach will be taken about breaking up the seats provided for different categories of passengers. You can regularly find this on airlines where the cheap fares are just never offered where they think it the flight can be filled by others who may pay more.

For a multi-stop train, the same approach will be with lesser journeys. Try and book months beforehand for the week before Christmas for Doncaster to Grantham and there will be nothing available - all being kept for Newcastle to Kings Cross and similar journeys; we don't want to turn those away just because all seats have gone for bits of the journey.

Incidentally, one can notice that multi-stop airline flights have pretty much disappeared, virtually all now are point-to-point and back again. One of the reasons was the commercial and operational downside of parts of the journey not having enough passengers, where other bits are oversubscribed.

 

[miami]

Because it makes for a more pleasant on-board travelling environment.

Perhaps those people could pay more for such an environment then.

 

[squizzler]

On a pedantic note, the car is permanently reserved to you, unless you are part of a car pool or share it with family. In the latter 2 cases, they usually do need to be reserved in advance, although the formality of the arrangement may vary.

Quite so. Building on your comparison, as a motorist you are in a much worse position to a rail passenger in that you have to use your allocated vehicle, period. The street in which you live may well be littered with parked cars, but good luck with deciding to use the nearest one because yours is parked a couple of streets away and you don’t fancy collecting it because it’s raining.

The rail user under the reformed fare scheme can pull out their smartphone and do the equivalent of using the first car they come across outside their front door.

 

[BayPaul]

Quite so. Building on your comparison, as a motorist you are in a much worse position to a rail passenger in that you have to use your allocated vehicle, period. The street in which you live may well be littered with parked cars, but good luck with deciding to use the nearest one because yours is parked a couple of streets away and you don’t fancy collecting it because it’s raining.

The rail user under the reformed fare scheme can pull out their smartphone and do the equivalent of using the first car they come across outside their front door.

But being a little more realistic, owning a car is like having a train permanently sitting at your nearest station, ready to depart direct to the station of your choice the moment your step onboard. Car will pretty much always beat rail for convenience in this respect (obviously rail has other advantages), rail should just try to get as close as possible, and regular departures that you can get onboard with a flexible ticket is about as good as rail can get - moving away from this just adds to car's advantage in this aspect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps those people could pay more for such an environment then.

On the basis that extending trains isn't going to be viable, would you accept the reduction in Standard capacity to provide a "Silver Standard" (still 2+2) that would offer that facility at a slight premium?

 

[miami]

On the basis that extending trains isn't going to be viable, would you accept the reduction in Standard capacity to provide a "Silver Standard" (still 2+2) that would offer that facility at a slight premium?

Sure, although I suspect you'll get very few people willing to pay for it.

 

[Taunton]

That seems counter-intuitive, that in Silver Standard we can board without reservations and be all standing down the aisle when the previous train was cancelled, but not in the regular cheap seats Standard where reservations are compulsory.

 

[BayPaul]

That seems counter-intuitive, that in Silver Standard we can board without reservations and be all standing down the aisle when the previous train was cancelled, but not in the regular cheap seats Standard where reservations are compulsory.

I read the suggestion as standard remains as is, Silver standard becomes reservations only, no standing plebs allowed!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I read the suggestion as standard remains as is, Silver standard becomes reservations only, no standing plebs allowed!

Yes, that was indeed the suggestion. That echoes India's approach, only the lowest class (Unreserved Second Class) is, er, unreserved.

 

[sannox]

I have some sympathy with both sides of this argument for intercity journeys. The flexibility is important to a lot of customers however and it would be nice to see that maintained. I like getting anytime ticket on work business and just jumping on the next train when I am finished.

TOCs often get the complaints "Why do you sell more tickets than seats". Explaining flexibility of 'any train tickets' seems a waste of time- it seems that people expect a seat on 'intercity trains'. The move to airline policy certainly makes sense from that side of things and allowing them to spread demand.

This is fairly common complaint on Scotrail when events are on in Glasgow and Edinburgh on the Aberdeen and Inverness trains. Hypothetically if they were to move to reservations, I wonder if you could make reservations compulsory only to/from journeys to a certain station. For example, reservations compulsory to/from Glasgow on Scotrail for Aberdeen trains but for those doing local hops from Dundee to Arbroath it isn't needed. I mean ideally you'd just run more trains but as we know the modern railway doesn't work that way! Sure people would be limited to certain trains, they might sell out, but it would potentially spread demand and improve satisfaction from those who have tickets and reservations and can't get on.

 

[miami]

If rail services are to follow airline methods, I presume the same approach will be taken about breaking up the seats provided for different categories of passengers. You can regularly find this on airlines where the cheap fares are just never offered where they think it the flight can be filled by others who may pay more.

Airlines competitors is almost always other airlines, or not travelling at all. As such they try to maximise the revenue per passenger, which they do by extracting £2k out of a business traveller for the same price as

Train competitors is the car and coach. The latter gets the "pleasant" environment of riff-raff not standing near you when travelling. The former gets the flexibility (and the "pleasent" environment")

Some seem to want the train to devolve to a coach/plane model, ignoring the unique value proposition it has over the coach and car

TOCs often get the complaints "Why do you sell more tickets than seats".

Do they really?

Passengers standing (rai0214) into London, AM peak, 2019

LNER: 0%
Virgin (including passengers from Milton Keynes): 2%
East Midlands Trains: 3%

I suspect that far more than that have season tickets.

Annecdotally, the main cause of standing is the peak time restrictions which mean mostly empty trains at Euston from 1500-1900, and rammed trains on the first off peak train. Even then there's often enough seats, just many unused reservations, thus proving that people want flexible tickets.

Passenger journeys 2019-2020 by ticket type (table 1222):

Advance: 5%
Anytime/Peak 26%
Off-Peak 34%
Season: 34%

Season tickets are down from 44% in 2010-11 (basically static numbers rather than growing with rail growth). Of the rest it's broadly the same proportion, maybe a little shift from off peak to advanced (5.5->7% for advance, 38%->39% for Peak, 55%->52% for Off Peak)


Trying to work out the complaints about standing on long distance is tricky -- by TOC and you get complaints from Milton Keynes - London, or Macclesfield-Manchester, or Runcorn-Liverpool, or Wolverhampton-Birmingham passengers

LNER is probably the most realistic, serving little short distance flow (nobody is going to book a seat between Manchester and Stockport)

Table 4133 complaints 2019-20, standing complaints were 2.4%.

Compare with complaints about onboard facilities (42.5%), staff attitude (4.3% for station, 7.1% for on train).

The desire seems to be to say "screw you, you're not coming on" to the 95% who don't travel on a fixed ticket to tackle a problem that doesn't exist (standing on long distance trains)

If the long distance rail industry wants to fix things, perhaps concentrate on fixing on board facilities and improving staff.

 

[gka472l]

Do they really?

Yes, as I'm front line TOC staff, I've had that complaint made to me numerous times over the years when far more people have tickets than there are seats available......

 

[takno]

Yes, as I'm front line TOC staff, I've had that complaint made to me numerous times over the years when far more people have tickets than there are seats available......

I think in a brave new world of effectively-nationalised operators we could probably address that with a couple of new ad campaigns with the tagline "DfT Rail - We nationalised it, now stop moaning". Specific ads could read:
"If you wanted a seat so badly you could have booked one you know"
and
"Do you want to get home tonight or not"

I'm only slightly joking about this. It's astonishing the number of people moaning who don't want to get their heads around the fact that *they* are the ones who wouldn't be on the train if it wasn't oversold.

 

[PG]

I wonder if you could make reservations compulsory only to/from journeys to a certain station. For example, reservations compulsory to/from Glasgow on Scotrail for Aberdeen trains but for those doing local hops from Dundee to Arbroath

Not that I'm in favour of compulsory reservations but if we did end up going down that road then this sounds like a compromise which still allows short-hop local journeys to be made on long distance operators.

 

[gka472l]

I think in a brave new world of effectively-nationalised operators we could probably address that with a couple of new ad campaigns with the tagline "DfT Rail - We nationalised it, now stop moaning". Specific ads could read:
"If you wanted a seat so badly you could have booked one you know"
and
"Do you want to get home tonight or not"

I'm only slightly joking about this. It's astonishing the number of people moaning who don't want to get their heads around the fact that *they* are the ones who wouldn't be on the train if it wasn't oversold.

Unfortunately, pointing out that they should have booked a seat (and the usual 'ticket doesn't guarantee a seat') really doesn't placate said passenger(s).

 

[6Gman]

Yes, as I'm front line TOC staff, I've had that complaint made to me numerous times over the years when far more people have tickets than there are seats available......

It also crops up a lot on operators' twitter feeds (in normal times).

 

[andy1571]

It also crops up a lot on operators' twitter feeds (in normal times).

I wonder what the Twitter feed will say when they can’t even travel at all....

 

[PG]

I wonder what the Twitter feed will say when they can’t even travel at all....

Might as well put up a technical difficulties notice and send the twitter staff home for the protection of their own health...

 

[BayPaul]

I wonder what the Twitter feed will say when they can’t even travel at all....

It definitely takes a certain kind of management who sees one particular complaint, and puts in place a complex new system guaranteed to remove that complaint and simultaneously generate a lot of more serious ones! Been there, tried and failed to explain that!

 

[Envoy]

One of the main problems seems to be at peak times leaving major cities. Let us take Reading to Paddington as an example. When the trains are eastbound, the long distance travellers are already on-board and hence should have found seats. Those making the short hop from Reading to PAD on a regular basis should have twigged which Inter City trains are likely to be less crowded. The main problem surely arises when leaving PAD at peak times if the Reading passengers for example, crowd onto an Inter City train and it fills up thus depriving those heading for Wales or the SW of a seat - or even being able to board. Surely with smart technology, we could have priority boarding whereby passengers scan their tickets to open the gate and the gate is rigged to only allow through those going longer distances. Once those are boarded, those making a short hop to say Reading would be allowed through the barrier and if another IC train leaving a few minutes later has more capacity, these customers should be directed to board that one.

I can’t see the point of having turn up and go services - such as an IC train every 15 minutes between London & Bristol if we are going to have compulsory reservations. By having compulsory reservations, it forces people to clog up rail stations and see trains go to their destinations with empty seats while they have to hang around for their set train. How annoying is that? Then we have the situation where if short hop fares are not compulsory, people will buy loads of short hop fares for long journeys to get around the compulsory system. We also would have the problem of people arriving from Heathrow at Reading say at 11am (off peak) and maybe having to hang around until 1pm to head west on their pre-booked train having already made a long distance flight. It is obviously well neigh impossible to figure out which train to book after a long flight. The last thing people want is to hang around stations such as Reading for pre-booked trains and see trains with vacant seats heading to their destination.

Particular attention should be paid to trains that split. For example, trains from PAD to places in west Wales split at Swansea with the rear half being the one that proceeds west of Swansea. The last thing passengers for west Wales need is for those going shorter distances to be filling up the rear 5 coaches and they have to walk to the front 5 only to have to transfer later in the journey. Clearly, such passengers should have priority boarding at PAD.

 

[Watershed]

Surely with smart technology, we could have priority boarding whereby passengers scan their tickets to open the gate and the gate is rigged to only allow through those going longer distances

No smart technology needed for that - you could simply program barriers to reject Reading tickets.

However, where do you draw the line - what if someone has a ticket to Basingstoke? Going via Reading is a valid route and is, in some circumstances, fastest. Should you deny them boarding, even though they could still decide to finish their journey early at Reading?

And see below - this is effectively a form of pick up only restrictions, with all the associated issues.

Once those are boarded

How do you know that all passengers for beyond Reading have boarded? Wait until everyone with reservations turns up? Impossible, many people never take their reserved train.

Ok, so how about saying that Reading passengers can't board more than 5 minutes before departure? Pointless: turnaround times of IC services at peak times, especially when you take into account cleaning etc., would mean the non-Reading window wouldn't be very long at all.

Meanwhile, either method would cause significant crowding problems, even when the service is running perfectly, given that Paddington isn't blessed with masses of concourse space (compared to Euston for example).

those making a short hop to say Reading would be allowed through the barrier and if another IC train leaving a few minutes later has more capacity, these customers should be directed to board that one.

But surely you can see why that would mean Reading passengers wouldn't get to travel until well after the peak period is over?

The proper solution to any Reading overcrowding issues is simple. Ensure there's sufficient capacity, and direct people towards it. If that means making Reading passengers get lost is seen as desirable, pick up only restrictions can be introduced, or alternatively "reservations compulsory" policies could be enforced.

But if Reading tickets are only usable on stopping services during peak hours, the corollary would have to be a significant cut in ticket prices, to be somewhere nearer the pence per mile rate of Slough etc. tickets. I don't think the DfT would be very happy with that...

 

[Hadders]

No smart technology needed for that - you could simply program barriers to reject Reading tickets.

Until there's a train on the other side of the same platform legitimately carrying passengers to Reading.

 

[BayPaul]

One of the main problems seems to be at peak times leaving major cities. Let us take Reading to Paddington as an example. When the trains are eastbound, the long distance travellers are already on-board and hence should have found seats. Those making the short hop from Reading to PAD on a regular basis should have twigged which Inter City trains are likely to be less crowded. The main problem surely arises when leaving PAD at peak times if the Reading passengers for example, crowd onto an Inter City train and it fills up thus depriving those heading for Wales or the SW of a seat - or even being able to board. Surely with smart technology, we could have priority boarding whereby passengers scan their tickets to open the gate and the gate is rigged to only allow through those going longer distances. Once those are boarded, those making a short hop to say Reading would be allowed through the barrier and if another IC train leaving a few minutes later has more capacity, these customers should be directed to board that one.

The thing is, though, this should basically sort itself naturally anyway. Take a train to Plymouth, for example. They depart Pad every hour, so most long distance passengers will probably be at the station in ample time, probably milling around the concourse waiting for the platform number to appear on the board, when they'll head for the gates and the platform. A Reading passenger arriving at that point wouldn't head for the Plymouth service, as their trains leave every 3-5 minutes there would be a couple of earlier departures, already containing the majority of their long-distance passengers seated, that the Reading passenger would naturally head to. Obviously if the Reading passenger particularly needs a seat, they could board a later train, or take a semi-fast, but I would imagine that the vast majority just head for the first fast train. All a long-distance passenger needs to do to get a seat is arrive relatively early and keep an eye on the boards, or reserve a seat.

 

[takno]

The thing is, though, this should basically sort itself naturally anyway. Take a train to Plymouth, for example. They depart Pad every hour, so most long distance passengers will probably be at the station in ample time, probably milling around the concourse waiting for the platform number to appear on the board, when they'll head for the gates and the platform. A Reading passenger arriving at that point wouldn't head for the Plymouth service, as their trains leave every 3-5 minutes there would be a couple of earlier departures, already containing the majority of their long-distance passengers seated, that the Reading passenger would naturally head to. Obviously if the Reading passenger particularly needs a seat, they could board a later train, or take a semi-fast, but I would imagine that the vast majority just head for the first fast train. All a long-distance passenger needs to do to get a seat is arrive relatively early and keep an eye on the boards, or reserve a seat.

If I'm not on an advance I aim to get to Paddington no more than 15 minutes before departure for the Exeter train, and even then I will be busy getting coffee or a burger. I'm not interested in milling around, joining the correct queue or beating the Reading hordes, and my preference as far as the barriers go is for the train to go from platform 1 so I don't have to deal with them at all.

I don't see the issue here tbh - if I want to guarantee a seat from the very start of the journey I book one, and if I want to travel at short notice I take my chances

 

[ivanhoe]

Having travelled extensively on Spanish railways, where compulsory reservation on Inter City is prevalent, I think it is the way forward for the UK in a post COVID environment. Whilst comparisons with Spain and the UK are not generally helpful, given the geographic spread of towns and Cities, I do think that the turn up and go mantra of Britain’s railway has had its day. However, there would have to be a major change in current timetables to make this work. Smaller towns still need to be served by rail but not necessarily by Inter City. Smart phones (and indeed booking offices)allow the ability to book prior to travel even 30 mins before commencing a journey. I do understand though, it would constitute a major change in travel habits but I am not suggesting immediate change. I think we would have to look at least 2 years into the future before any change.

 

[takno]

Having travelled extensively on Spanish railways, where compulsory reservation on Inter City is prevalent, I think it is the way forward for the UK in a post COVID environment. Whilst comparisons with Spain and the UK are not generally helpful, given the geographic spread of towns and Cities, I do think that the turn up and go mantra of Britain’s railway has had its day. However, there would have to be a major change in current timetables to make this work. Smaller towns still need to be served by rail but not necessarily by Inter City. Smart phones (and indeed booking offices)allow the ability to book prior to travel even 30 mins before commencing a journey. I do understand though, it would constitute a major change in travel habits but I am not suggesting immediate change. I think we would have to look at least 2 years into the future before any change.

Spain is one of the places I've found myself completely unable to travel on the day I wanted to, and struggling to book accommodation at the last minute. I don't see what the use of on-the-day booking is at all if you can't guarantee being able to book on the day. Smart phones may allow the pointless extra bureaucracy and risk to be less than it otherwise would (for people who are able to operate smartphones and understand quite complex interfaces), but they don't make it go away altogether.

 

[Brush 4]

This all sounds ridiculously complicated and that alone is enough to discourage train travel. Simplicity and flexibility is the key, rather obvious really. Being in love with new technology doesn't justify complication. Arrive at station, buy ticket with a choice of pay by card or cash, get the next train, sit down where you want hopefully. Throwing that away is slow commercial suicide. Spain has it wrong, copying them is plain stupidity.

 

[squizzler]

We also would have the problem of people arriving from Heathrow at Reading say at 11am (off peak) and maybe having to hang around until 1pm to head west on their pre-booked train having already made a long distance flight. It is obviously well neigh impossible to figure out which train to book after a long flight. The last thing people want is to hang around stations such as Reading for pre-booked trains and see trains with vacant seats heading to their destination.

If the passenger has booked themselves on the 1pm departure because they wanted to lock in their journey ahead of time then they are presumably happy with that choice (although it is not unheard of for planes to be more than 2hr late). Personally I think they would be better just going direct to Reading and booking themselves on the next service home - possibly on their mobile whilst on transfer bus. Much simpler.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This all sounds ridiculously complicated and that alone is enough to discourage train travel. Simplicity and flexibility is the key, rather obvious really. Being in love with new technology doesn't justify complication. Arrive at station, buy ticket with a choice of pay by card or cash, get the next train, sit down where you want hopefully. Throwing that away is slow commercial suicide. Spain has it wrong, copying them is plain stupidity.

Spain uses it to hide inadequate capacity (which means they have a huge coach industry - some of it is or was owned by National Express!). Not true of France or Italy, though, where when you rock up at the station you're almost certain to get on the next train - indeed, much less expensively than in the UK where most people can't afford to do that on the trains concerned. With Eurostar similarly (though expensively) trains are very, very rarely completely full due to the massive capacity.

While this is because of higher subsidy and not because of compulsory reservations, I suspect the feasibility of "turn up and go" on an Italian equivalent journey is much higher than on London-Edinburgh, indeed, simply because it's actually affordable.

 

[harz99]

I'm afraid this poll and some members posts make me laugh.

Way back when.. Well the 80's under BR (remember them?) There used to be certain trains which were compulsory seat reservation (which was free), these were normally on summer weekends on long distance routes such as the WCML ,ECML, and GWML.

I used to travel on All Line Rovers back then, and never had a problem, because the compulsory reservation was free and I had a plan what train(s) I would be travelling on !

So, in all honesty Compulsory reservations in non Covid times is nothing new ! (Unlike some posts on this forum which think it is).

There were also plenty of "U" pick up only , and "S" set down only stops for certain peak and off peak trains trains on the former InterCity network, which was of course also a method of controlling passenger usage. As you say, nothing new.

I don't support blanket compulsory seat reservations on every train in normal times, but selectively to protect longer distance passengers where reasonable alternatives exist why not?

The thing is, though, this should basically sort itself naturally anyway. Take a train to Plymouth, for example. They depart Pad every hour, so most long distance passengers will probably be at the station in ample time, probably milling around the concourse waiting for the platform number to appear on the board, when they'll head for the gates and the platform. A Reading passenger arriving at that point wouldn't head for the Plymouth service, as their trains leave every 3-5 minutes there would be a couple of earlier departures, already containing the majority of their long-distance passengers seated, that the Reading passenger would naturally head to. Obviously if the Reading passenger particularly needs a seat, they could board a later train, or take a semi-fast, but I would imagine that the vast majority just head for the first fast train. All a long-distance passenger needs to do to get a seat is arrive relatively early and keep an eye on the boards, or reserve a seat.

That only works if and when trains have sufficient turn around time to enable them to be cleaned, prepped and boarding at least 15-20 minutes before departure time. Sadly not the case in my long experience of travelling from major terminal stations.