Concessionary pass validity times

[Andrew Nelson]

Is it a simple case of for every passenger that uses a pass, the bus company loses the fare that would have been charged for the journey? Some of the passengers would likely have used alternative transport if they had to pay so I'm not sure how the loss in revenue is calculated.

Simple, if the passenger paid, they'd get "X", if they don't pay they lose "X".

 

[Deerfold]

Simple, if the passenger paid, they'd get "X", if they don't pay they lose "X".

But the bus company then gets Y% of X reimbursed by the local authority.

Y varies between local authorities.

There are routes which gain and routes which lose - which they are depends very much on how the local authority calculates the amount due (some base it on the fares not paid and some on a simple flat fee per trip).

So they lose (1-Y%)*X (but X might have been lower if people didn't have a pass).

 

[Zoe]

Simple, if the passenger paid, they'd get "X", if they don't pay they lose "X".

But in quite a few cases they wouldn't be getting X as the passenger would have made alternative arrangements if they didn't have a pass. For example if there's a train and a bus on the same route, the cost of the train can be lower in some cases and the only reason people with passes choose bus over train is that they don't have to pay anything. It's not a simple case of if the passes were scrapped, the company would get a full fare from all the current users as I expect quite a few wouldn't use the bus at all. I remember on some routes pre-2006 buses off peak would only have a handful of passengers but now they can be near full. I'm not sure this would be the case if the scheme had not been introduced.

 

[Robertj21a]

But the bus company then gets Y% of X reimbursed by the local authority.

Y varies between local authorities.

There are routes which gain and routes which lose - which they are depends very much on how the local authority calculates the amount due (some base it on the fares not paid and some on a simple flat fee per trip).

So they lose (1-Y%)*X (but X might have been lower if people didn't have a pass).

I've often wondered - has anyone been able to find out what the reimbursement rates are, by county council (or similar) ?

They do, I understand, differ quite widely.

Robert
.

 

[overthewater]

This is why the English system is in a utter mess, unlike the Scottish, welsh or NI, which are all funded directly from Central government, with local councils just dealing with the administration of given out the passes.

 

[Zoe]

This is why the English system is in a utter mess, unlike the Scottish, welsh or NI, which are all funded directly from Central government, with local councils just dealing with the administration of given out the passes.

At least now the responsibility has been transferred to county councils/unitary authorities rather than each district having their own arrangements.

 

[Deerfold]

I remember on some routes pre-2006 buses off peak would only have a handful of passengers but now they can be near full. I'm not sure this would be the case if the scheme had not been introduced.

On the other hand Harrogate and District withdrew a popular hourly service between Harrogate and York as they recieved a flat fee per journey which meant that if the bus was full of ENTCS holders it did not cover its costs.

The local council then paid another company for a handful of services a day to run.

 

[Zoe]

On the other hand Harrogate and District withdrew a popular hourly service between Harrogate and York as they recieved a flat fee per journey which meant that if the bus was full of ENTCS holders it did not cover its costs.

Would all the people previously paying to use the bus have been elidgible for a concessionary pass though or was it the case that the buses were so full that fare paying passengers were unable to board?

 

[overthewater]

Didn't Harrogate and District only start the service because of the passes?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Coastliner, Transpeak, etc.

I have spoken both to High Peak and to TfGM this afternoon and both of them state that holders of the ENCTS passes, in the period of validity, are perfectly valid for use on the TransPeak service. Who was it who gave you that incorrect information ?

I was already aware that these are not valid on any of the Yorkshire Coastliner services.

 

[radamfi]

It is so difficult to work out a proper reimbursement for the free passes. The operator will always complain that are getting too little, and the authority will complain that the operator is ripping them off. With gross cost tendering, this problem does not arise.
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I have spoken both to High Peak and to TfGM this afternoon and both of them state that holders of the ENCTS passes, in the period of validity, are perfectly valid for use on the TransPeak service. Who was it who gave you that incorrect information ?

I was already aware that these are not valid on any of the Yorkshire Coastliner services.

I don't think he actually said that free passes are not valid on Transpeak. In fact, he didn't even say that they aren't valid on Coastliner.

 

[brompton rail]

Is it a simple case of for every passenger that uses a pass, the bus company loses the fare that would have been charged for the journey? Some of the passengers would likely have used alternative transport if they had to pay so I'm not sure how the loss in revenue is calculated.

I thought that some daytime Coastliners run non stop on part of the route between Malton and Seamer on an express licence. It is only on these journeys that passes are not valid. Between Leeds and York the services are "stage carriage" buses.

Trans Peak is not express but limited stop, and then only between Derby and Matlock, and Buxton and Manchester (where only half the frequency of Derby / Buxton).

 

[CatfordCat]

Reimbursement to bus operators (for concessionary travel) is based on the principle that "operators should be no better and no worse off than if the scheme did not exist"

In other words, they should be paid for the amount of travel that passholders would make if they had to pay a fare, not the amount of travel they do make now they have a free pass. Plus any additional marginal costs (e.g. having to provide larger vehicles.)

There is a very complex calculator that DfT publishes and expects concessionary fare authorities to use - here. Guidance note (pretty substantial) linked from the same page.

It's broadly done on averages, rather than attempting to account for every single journey in detail.

Local authorities are required to 'publish' their local scheme, so it may be on councils' websites, alternatively you may have to ask for a copy.

 

[Deerfold]

I thought that some daytime Coastliners run non stop on part of the route between Malton and Seamer on an express licence. It is only on these journeys that passes are not valid. Between Leeds and York the services are "stage carriage" buses.

That was proposed but never actually happened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would all the people previously paying to use the bus have been elidgible for a concessionary pass though or was it the case that the buses were so full that fare paying passengers were unable to board?

The service was only introduced after the passes were in existence so it's hard to tell. It was initially popular at a lower frequency and the frequency was increased but the bus company said they could not make it pay at the rates they were reimbursed. I don't know if passengers were unable to board.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

But in quite a few cases they wouldn't be getting X as the passenger would have made alternative arrangements if they didn't have a pass.

That's not the point.
They DID make the journey, and the provider gets paid a % of the fare.
As others have said, this can be anything from 10-75% of the cost to a fare paying passenger.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the other hand Harrogate and District withdrew a popular hourly service between Harrogate and York as they recieved a flat fee per journey which meant that if the bus was full of ENTCS holders it did not cover its costs.

The local council then paid another company for a handful of services a day to run.

This has happened many times, the ENCS has caused directly loss of services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have spoken both to High Peak and to TfGM this afternoon and both of them state that holders of the ENCTS passes, in the period of validity, are perfectly valid for use on the TransPeak service. Who was it who gave you that incorrect information ?

I was already aware that these are not valid on any of the Yorkshire Coastliner services.

Please read my post Paul, I never said the passes were not valid, I was replying to a post about people not using them for long journeys.

I know they are valid, I have used both many many times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That was proposed but never actually happened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The service was only introduced after the passes were in existence so it's hard to tell. It was initially popular at a lower frequency and the frequency was increased but the bus company said they could not make it pay at the rates they were reimbursed. I don't know if passengers were unable to board.

Yes, there were occasions were fare paying passengers were having to stand for lone periods of time, so were put off.

 

[34D]

On the other hand Harrogate and District withdrew a popular hourly service between Harrogate and York as they recieved a flat fee per journey which meant that if the bus was full of ENTCS holders it did not cover its costs.

The local council then paid another company for a handful of services a day to run.

That's not correct. The x54 was operated commercially by both Harrogate & District and Harrogate Coach Travel, and latterly just by HCT (still commercially). Nowadays they go via Wetherby

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Please read my post Paul, I never said the passes were not valid, I was replying to a post about people not using them for long journeys.
I

Indeed so, all your posting # 26 reply to david16 just said "Coastliner, Transpeak, etc" , which I appeared to take were validity claims for "old ladies using their ENCTS passes".

Blessed are those who read forum postings correctly, for they shall obtain great knowledge...

 

[Zoe]

That's not the point.

Your point was that for every passenger that uses a conscessionary pass for a journey costing X, the bus company loses X in revenue (minus the reimbursment). At the end of the day if the passenger would never have made the journey had they been required to pay then the bus company would still not have got X in revenue from them so the bus company is not going to be losing revenue as a result of the scheme this except for any increases in operational costs which as CatfordCat explained above should be covered by the reinbursment. As long as the operational costs of carrying the extra passengers is covered then the the scheme should at least be revenue neutral for the bus company. If the full fare had to be reinbursed for every journey made then I expect the bus companies would actually be gaining revenue as a result of the scheme.

 

[ModernRailways]

Your point was that for every passenger that uses a conscessionary pass for a journey costing X, the bus company loses X in revenue (minus the reimbursment). At the end of the day if the passenger would never have made the journey had they been required to pay then the bus company would still not have got X in revenue from them so the bus company is not going to be losing revenue as a result of the scheme this except for any increases in operational costs which as CatfordCat explained above should be covered by the reinbursment.

I must agree with this.


I have my pass and I use the bus instead of walking as I get very tired quite quickly. If I didn't have my pass I would just walk as it wouldn't be worth the £2.00 for a single trip that only goes about 3 or 4 stops. I also use the bus when the Metro is delayed now, whereas before I would just wait. I would hardly ever (if ever) travel by bus as I live 5 minutes from the Metro and so the Metro takes me pretty much anywhere I want to go - and for only £25 for a year. My pass lets me travel all day too as I am in full time education. I must admit to feeling a little guilty for those have to pay £30 a month for the Metro to get to work/college etc.

However, to counter that argument you can also argue that I have paid into the system too as I did use to buy full price tickets, and last year did just have a normal metro pass. Same goes for the elderly they have already paid into the bus/metro services throughout their life and so it can be argued that this is just a little way of them getting some form of potential reimbursement. It's also extremely helpful in getting them out and meeting people/social gatherings/clubs etc. I imagine a lot of those elderly people would just be sitting in the house all day if they didn't have their passes.

 

[Zoe]

However, to counter that argument you can also argue that I have paid into the system too as I did use to buy full price tickets, and last year did just have a normal metro pass. Same goes for the elderly they have already paid into the bus/metro services throughout their life and so it can be argued that this is just a little way of them getting some form of potential reimbursement. It's also extremely helpful in getting them out and meeting people/social gatherings/clubs etc. I imagine a lot of those elderly people would just be sitting in the house all day if they didn't have their passes.

I don't think the availability of the passes is in question here. The question is if the bus company should be paid the full fare by the government for every single journey made with a pass. If this was done then it would likely be better for the bus companies since they could gain reveue every time a person with a pass makes a journey but it would cost the government more. As it stands the bus companies should not be losing revenue as a result of the scheme but are not gaining either whereas they would be if the government paid them the full fare.

 

[ModernRailways]

I don't think the availability of the passes is in question here. The question is if the bus company should be paid the full fare by the government for every single journey made with a pass. If this was done then it would likely be better for the bus companies since they would gain reveue every time a person with a pass makes a journey but it would cost the government more.

This is why we need a nationwide bus pass for 'normal' people. All bus journeys should be at similar costs to the way TfL does it only with all bus prices being controlled by local authorities (transport body? such as TfL, Nexus, TfGM etc.). All single journeys cost a flat rate of £1.50. The Government would then pay £1 or so for every journey made by a ENCTS pass holder. There would be an upper limit and a lower limit for what local authorities can set the price and then a percentage of the 'normal' bus fee would be would be paid by the Government for those with ENCTS passes.

Certain bus routes would be allowed to charge more, such as the Coastliner, if they travel for more than a certain distance without stopping.

 

[Deerfold]

That's not correct. The x54 was operated commercially by both Harrogate & District and Harrogate Coach Travel, and latterly just by HCT (still commercially). Nowadays they go via Wetherby

HCT did carry on for a little under a year with a much lower frequency. There was then a gap of nearly nine months before the present 4 times a day service via a rather longer route, changing service number halfway (412/X70) started.

I had thought there was a subsidised service in between but I cannot find any evidence of this .

 

[radamfi]

This is why we need a nationwide bus pass for 'normal' people. All bus journeys should be at similar costs to the way TfL does it only with all bus prices being controlled by local authorities (transport body? such as TfL, Nexus, TfGM etc.). All single journeys cost a flat rate of £1.50. The Government would then pay £1 or so for every journey made by a ENCTS pass holder. There would be an upper limit and a lower limit for what local authorities can set the price and then a percentage of the 'normal' bus fee would be would be paid by the Government for those with ENCTS passes.

Certain bus routes would be allowed to charge more, such as the Coastliner, if they travel for more than a certain distance without stopping.

I guess a lot of people reading this may find that post unrealistic, but actually those kinds of fares do exist in our near locality.

De Lijn, who operate the buses and trams in the north of Belgium, only have 2 fares, one for one zone and one for more than one zone. The most you need to pay for a single trip is €3, or €2 if you buy your ticket in advance. You can also change as many times as you want within the time limit of 60 minutes for one zone, or 90 minutes for more than one zone.

http://www.delijn.be/en/vervoerbewijzen/types/biljet/index.htm

If you get a Lijnkaart, paying for a number of trips up front, the cost per trip is even lower, at €1 for one zone, or €1.60 for more than one zone.

http://www.delijn.be/vervoerbewijzen/types/kaart/index.htm

 

[Zoe]

I guess a lot of people reading this may find that post unrealistic, but actually those kinds of fares do exist in our near locality.

De Lijn, who operate the buses and trams in the north of Belgium, only have 2 fares, one for one zone and one for more than one zone. The most you need to pay for a single trip is €3, or €2 if you buy your ticket in advance. You can also change as many times as you want within the time limit of 60 minutes for one zone, or 90 minutes for more than one zone.

Is it a fully deregulated market where you are though where anyone can run buses and charge any fares they want to?

 

[ModernRailways]

I guess a lot of people reading this may find that post unrealistic, but actually those kinds of fares do exist in our near locality.

De Lijn, who operate the buses and trams in the north of Belgium, only have 2 fares, one for one zone and one for more than one zone. The most you need to pay for a single trip is €3, or €2 if you buy your ticket in advance. You can also change as many times as you want within the time limit of 60 minutes for one zone, or 90 minutes for more than one zone.

http://www.delijn.be/en/vervoerbewijzen/types/biljet/index.htm

If you get a Lijnkaart, paying for a number of trips up front, the cost per trip is even lower, at €1 for one zone, or €1.60 for more than one zone.

http://www.delijn.be/vervoerbewijzen/types/kaart/index.htm

Surprisingly I was kind of copying the way De Lijn do it after a recent trip around Belgium/Germany.

Some may argue that it would mean a state owned bus company, but it could just be one state body, such as TfL, but probably called TfE (Transport for England) or such like, an they then contract out the bus routes to bus companies.

On certain journeys over a certain distance they would be exempt from the flat fare, but they would still have to have prices below a certain price set by the bus body.

 

[34D]

I can see a workable system being a (multi operator) smartcard system where operators receive a fixed amount for operating the service and the passenger paying regionally agreed fares (whether flat or graduated).

Oh wait, that's Quality Contracts and London style tendering.

I'm told (but cannot confirm) that it would be cheaper for WYPTE to charter a Leeds-Harrogate or Leeds-Scarborough coach than to pay reimbursement to Transdev.

This wouldn't work of course, because NYCC pay for their return journey.

 

[radamfi]

Is it a fully deregulated market where you are though where anyone can run buses and charge any fares they want to?

There is no fully deregulated market for local buses in the developed world apart from the UK. New Zealand and Sweden have an element of deregulation, but nothing like the UK. There are private jeepney-like taxi operations in eastern Europe which could be argued to be a bit like deregulation.

 

[Zoe]

Some may argue that it would mean a state owned bus company, but it could just be one state body, such as TfL, but probably called TfE (Transport for England) or such like, an they then contract out the bus routes to bus companies.

The argument against this (not one I peronally agree with though) is that it removes choice from the customer and also the incentive for the bus private companies to grow patronage. If they are not going to be making any extra money by attracting new passengers onto their buses then they won't bother trying to. The issue with the passes I think is that even though the reimbursment should be revenue neutral, the bus companies are not making any extra money out of it so why should they have to the passengers at all? It can be argued that having to carry passengers at no financial gain is going against the free market since the government are not paying the fare that the market commands for this journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is no fully deregulated market for local buses in the developed world apart from the UK.

Even in the US? If anywhere was to leave it to the free market then I'd have thought the US would do cosidering the conversations I've with some people over there who have said the NHS system is communist.

 

[radamfi]

Even in the US? If anywhere was to leave it to the free market then I'd have thought the US would do cosidering the conversations I've with some people over there who have said the NHS system is communist.

Actually, buses in the US are probably more subsidised than in Europe, and fares are often very low, usually less than $2 flat fare including transfers. Obviously the US is very car orientated, meaning that running buses for profit wouldn't work as the captive market is too small. Commercial bus operation only survives in the UK because there are enough people willing to pay high fares because they have no other option.

 

[Zoe]

Commercial bus operation only survives in the UK because there are enough people willing to pay high fares because they have no other option.

With the likely significant decline in car use in the future though I expect there will be a lot more people who will have no choice but to pay the bus fares that the market commands. If anything I expect there to be more of a case for the deregulated system in the future (with some currently subsidized services becoming profitable) unless there is a significant political change.