Condition 19c + accommodation

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RJ

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Suppose one holds a First Class period ticket, but only holds a Standard Class extension. For example, a First Class season ticket from Peterborough to Hadley Wood, with a Standard Class Day Return from Hadley Wood to Kings Cross.

If travelling on an East Coast service to London, at what points in the journey can they occupy First Class?

In this situation, only a Standard Class extension is available. Suppose the splitting point changes to Potters Bar, where a FDR to London is available. If the person chooses to buy the SDR instead, would the answer be the same?

Interested in gauging opinions on this.

Whilst I'm here, it appears that East Coast are still selling season tickets with Maltese Crosses on them. They were supposed to have been abolished quite some time ago!
 
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hairyhandedfool

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You can only sit in first class for the distance that you have paid for first class accommodation. If you travel beyond that distance you may be liable for an excess fare/upgrade to first class or Penalty Fare as appropriate.
 

ainsworth74

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You can only sit in first class for the distance that you have paid for first class accommodation. If you travel beyond that distance you may be liable for an excess fare/upgrade to first class or Penalty Fare as appropriate.

How do you work out when to move? Look out the window until you see Hadley Wood going flying past?
 

hairyhandedfool

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Well, you'd have to be out of first class before your ticket runs out, but yeah, that is a good way of doing it.
 

calc7

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I wonder if a KGX-somewhere in the zones FDS and a STD season thereafter would legitimately permit you to a drink and punt at getting some food on a northbound.
 

cuccir

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How do you work out when to move? Look out the window until you see Hadley Wood going flying past?

By the letter of the law, I'd guess so.

In practice, I'd have thought that most members of staff would show discretion here. Unless, of course, you'd got yourself a reputation for using unusual tickets along the line and as a result there were staff interested in getting you ;)
 

142094

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There's been a few times on EC where I've had food and drink in 1st without a ticket check, so it certainly is possible.
 

calc7

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By the letter of the law, I'd guess so.

In practice, I'd have thought that most members of staff would show discretion here. Unless, of course, you'd got yourself a reputation for using unusual tickets along the line and as a result there were staff interested in getting you ;)

What discretion can be shown here exactly?

If you take what I think you are saying to its extreme, you sit in 1ST for the entire journey!
 

Solent&Wessex

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If it were me, I would suggest that you would only be allowed in First Class until the last station the train stopped at where the First Class ticket was valid. For example, if you had Peterborough to Welwyn GC First Class season, then a Standard Class Day Return from Welwyn GC to Kings Cross - if the train stopped at Welwyn GC then you could travel First as far as Welwyn GC, going into Standard thereafter. If the train stopped at Stevenage, then fast to Kings Cross, then you could travel First Class Peterborough to Stevenage, and Standard Class thereafter. If the train you were on was non stop from Peterborough to Kings Cross then you would travel Standard Class throughout.
 

calc7

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If it were me, I would suggest that you would only be allowed in First Class until the last station the train stopped at where the First Class ticket was valid. For example, if you had Peterborough to Welwyn GC First Class season, then a Standard Class Day Return from Welwyn GC to Kings Cross - if the train stopped at Welwyn GC then you could travel First as far as Welwyn GC, going into Standard thereafter. If the train stopped at Stevenage, then fast to Kings Cross, then you could travel First Class Peterborough to Stevenage, and Standard Class thereafter. If the train you were on was non stop from Peterborough to Kings Cross then you would travel Standard Class throughout.

I'm not suggesting this is wrong - but is there evidence which points you to that interpretation?
 

Solent&Wessex

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I'm not suggesting this is wrong - but is there evidence which points you to that interpretation?

Not that I know of, but neither is there evidence that you should look out of the window when doing 100mph to spot a blur outside then move into Standard Class at that point. The precedent and nearest source of guidance would be, I suppose, the general rules regarding split tickets which don't involve season tickets, i.e. When the train must stop at the changeover station. Whilst this is not definitive, as obviously the season ticket ruling is a bit different, it is the nearest source of relevant guidance I can think of.

 

RJ

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Ok, following on from that logic: what if you're on a First Class ALR, with a SDS from London to South Hampstead, leaving Euston before 10:00. If the train's first stop is Warrington Bank Quay, should the passenger occupy First Class at all?

I appreciate that normally such questions are of a hypothetical nature, but I have actually done that in the past. To throw a bit of spice into the mix, the SDS to SOH was Priv discounted whereas the rover was not. This may well have had a bearing on whether or not I should have accepted the full breakfast!
 

cuccir

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What discretion can be shown here exactly?

If you take what I think you are saying to its extreme, you sit in 1ST for the entire journey!

Discretion to stay in first until the next stop on the journey.

I agree that this gets more complicated on long-distance trains which do not stop, however.
 

34D

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If it were me, I would suggest that you would only be allowed in First Class until the last station the train stopped at where the First Class ticket was valid. For example, if you had Peterborough to Welwyn GC First Class season, then a Standard Class Day Return from Welwyn GC to Kings Cross - if the train stopped at Welwyn GC then you could travel First as far as Welwyn GC, going into Standard thereafter. If the train stopped at Stevenage, then fast to Kings Cross, then you could travel First Class Peterborough to Stevenage, and Standard Class thereafter. If the train you were on was non stop from Peterborough to Kings Cross then you would travel Standard Class throughout.

So if you are denying this passenger access to first class from Stevenage to Welwyn or wherever, does that mean that NRCOC clause 38 (travelling in std on a first class ticket) would come into play for a partial refund?
 

bb21

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There is no hard and fast rule as to what should happen if this is what the OP is interested in, therefore what will happen depends on the member of staff encountered. I am not even going to try to second-guess what would happen.

I have been allowed to sit in First throughout on the WAG-express with a Standard extension before by an ATW guard. That remains my only experience of this nature. I asked him before occupying First Class accommodation.
 

Flamingo

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As with everything, if the passenger is proactive in asking us, there is more chance of an outcome they will like...
 
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