Confiscated rail-only season ticket used on bus

[dr_novell]

Last year I was stopped on a bus with a railcard and the ticket inspector confiscated my ticket. I have emails from TFL stating that the ticket inspector should not have removed my ticket. It is now going to court and TFL have stated in their defense that I was issued a receipt for the ticket that was taken. The only thing that I was given was an authority to travel which was written out incorrectly and I could not use to travel. They also claim that they issued me with Penalty Fare Notice which they claim was given to me when the ticket was confiscated my ticket.

I have a letter of TFL stating that the ticket inspector did not follow the correct procedures and he should not have withdrawn my pass. The letter states that a TATT was issued but was not completed correctly. No mention of a receipt being issued.

The question is if TFL do confiscate a ticket do they have to supply a receipt? And if so do you have to sign it to say that TFL have confiscated your ticket? As I never received a receipt I don’t know what one looks like.
Also when they issue you a penalty fare notice don’t you have to sign for it? Does the penalty fare notice have a time and date on it when it was issued?

Dr

 

[PermitToTravel]

Would I be correct in guessing that, by railcard, you mean a train-only season ticket, or a travelcard season, rather than the discount cards that grant some people a third off rail fares?

 

[dr_novell]

Yes it was a monthly railcard.

The defense states " As was normal practice, the RPI also issued an Authority to Travel which is a replacement ticket which enables anyone issued with a PFN to be able to travel to their destination." When I asked if it was valid on Southern trains they said no I couldn't travel.

The authority to travel did not contain the source and destination station that were printed on the railcard that was taken. The RPI printed "railway only pass" where it says valid by rail between. Also did not cross off the zones as the original ticket was croydon to woking.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think it would help any of us giving advice if we knew a few important details:
- What is the claim or offence that will be heard in Court?
- What attempts have been made to resolve this before now, and what has been their outcomes?
- What was the reason for challenging the authenticity or validity of the ticket?
- What debts have accumulated so far in respect of this incident?
- What evidence and documentation do you have (other than the "emails from TFL" and "letter from TFL") ?

Thanks

 

[crazyjimmy]

The TATT is also a receipt - IF the details of the withdrawn ticket or pass are completed on the reverse of it.

No, penalty fare notices / TATTs / receipts do not require a signature. Yes, the penalty fare notice will be endorsed with the time and date of issue.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes it was a monthly railcard.

Sorry but you are not helping yourself here. A 'railcard' is a discount card that is used with a single or return ticket. (As explained by Fahad in his post above.)

There is no such thing as a 'monthly railcard'.

If your ticket was valid for a month it would have been a season ticket, either a rail only season with origin Woking and destination Croydon; or a travelcard season with validity between Woking and 'London Zones'.

Only the latter (the travelcard season) is going to be valid on a bus, so unless you specify exactly what you had how can anyone advise properly?

 

[47421]

What is the start and destination station of your ticket ? Do you remember the price you paid for the monthly ticket ?

 

[island]

It sounds like the OP attempted to use a monthly season ticket between Croydon Stations and Woking on a London bus, on which it is not valid. But some clarification on exactly what this "railcard" really is would be very helpful around now. To help, I'll provide some prices and ask the OP to specify if he remembers the price of the "railcard", or approximately how much it was: £346, £303, £254.30, £30, £28

If the OP's question is "will the fact that a temporary authority to travel was filled in incorrectly or a National Rail ticket was withdrawn improperly mean that a prosecution for travelling on a bus without a ticket will be unsuccessful", the answer is "probably not".

 

[dr_novell]

Thanks for all the information. The TFL lawyer has said that it is a monthly railcard. It is a 254.30 ticket used between Croydon and Woking. The TATT was written out incorrectly to the point Southern trains would not accept it as travel and had to purchase another ticket.

Can TFL confiscate monthly season tickets or national rail tickets?

 

[Greenback]

Is it correct to say that you were on a bus and that you had not paid the far efor the journey? Would it be correct to say that you produced the railway ticket when someone asked to see evidence that you had paid for the bus journey?

We need to be clear on what happened before we can offer advice.

 

[PermitToTravel]

TATTs issued by bus inspectors have the option "Rail only season" (or similar) in the list of ticket types, so I would assume that London Buses do have authority to confiscate rail tickets

 

[dr_novell]

A RPI asked for my ticket and I showed him the 254.30 ticket. He then spent about 20 minutes on his mobile I assume trying to confirm my address via the electoral register as I had written it on his notepad. The RPI went and spoke to the bus driver and I got off the bus and waited for the ticket inspector. He got off the bus and issued me with the TATT. I requested that he return my ticket which he refused and could not tell me what was going to happen to my ticket.

I have a letter from TFL Customer Service Adviser saying "Whilst RPI receive thorough training to enable them to carry out their duties effectively it is disappointing to note that procedures were not followed correctly on this occasion. Although you did not have the correct ticket for travel on London buses, the RPI should not have have withdrawn your pass. A TATT was issued but this was not completed correctly. I am sorry for these errors and can confirm that the RPI has been interviewed and has acknowledged the mistakes he made."

Now the TFL lawyer has completely disregarded this letter and is saying they did nothing wrong. I'm very confused at the moment as I'm getting different stories from different people. For example when I did try to travel, Southern trains (I have the name of the southern employee) told me to go to the bus station as the TATT was not valid. The guy (who I have his name) at the bus station confirmed it was incorrectly written and he said that he has years of experience as a RPI. Now the lawyer is saying there was nothing wrong with the ticket.

What happens to confiscated tickets? London travel Watch said "If at the time the ticket inspector views the situation to be more serious he will consider reporting the incident to the operator’s Prosecution Department who will decide whether or not to proceed with prosecution. The passenger is then contacted and informed of their decision and their options are explained to them."

Can I assume that the ticket was never sent to the operators Prosecution Section as I never receive a letter?

Also the lawyer said it is normal practice for RPI to issue a TATT. Is this correct?

The case has gone to small claims as I have lost money on postage, photocopying, sending letters, going to CAB, my time and purchasing replacement tickets.

Dr

 

[Deerfold]

Did you not chase up what had happened to your ticket once it was confiscated? Had it nearly expired?

 

[dr_novell]

Yes I did try to chase up what happened to my ticket. By the time they had returned it it was no longer valid. They said take the letter and attached ticket to the train operating company as confirmation that the ticket has been held by TFL. Went to Southern and they said its nothing to do with us as TFL confiscated your ticket you need to take the matter up with them.

Dr

 

[island]

£254.30 was last year's price for a standard 1-month season ticket from Croydon Stations to Woking, route NOT VIA LONDON. This ticket is not valid on buses (and is not a Railcard).

I cannot find any legal authority for a TFL/London Buses RPI to withdraw a rail-only season ticket, nor any reason why a temporary authority to travel written by one should be accepted by Southern, South West Trains, and so on. There is at least an arguable case that TFL should make good the loss it caused to the OP by improperly withdrawing the ticket, which I suppose could be calculated as the pro-rata value of the ticket based on the number of days until it was due to expire at the time it was withdrawn.

However, the OP has also breached section 7(2) of the Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990 which is an offence under section 67 of the Public Passenger Vehicles Act, 1981, and is liable to prosecution for this.

 

[47421]

Interesting. How much is your claim for? (rounded up or down to nearest £50 or £100 if you would prefer not to disclose the precise amount)

In light of the first letter from TfL with the clear admission that the RPI got it wrong does seem odd that TfL's lawyers are now denying any liability, I would have thought they would have made a settlement offer as sounds as if they are going to have to invest more time and effort in defending the claim in court. Are you sure TfL's lawyers have seen the first letter? On the face of it it is pretty damning and should be very helpful to your claim when presenting it to the judge. Perhaps email them now with a comment along the lines of 'thank you for your notice of defence which I was surprised to receive in light of (a) the absence of any lawful grounds for the RPI to retain my rail ticket and (b) the admissions made by TfL in the attached letter' .

In relation to the bus journey where you ran into the RPI, did you receive a TfL penalty fare and have you paid it? I am all in favour if pursuing TfL or ToCs if their RPIs overreach but clearly any redress you get via the small claims court will be hollow if they later pursue you under the criminal law for not having the right ticket on the bus

 

[island]

I wonder whether some pragmatism might be in order on both sides. Each has done some wrong; perhaps the OP and TFL might agree to forget about the whole thing rather than spend money on legal fees?

 

[dr_novell]

Sorry too late for kiss and make up. TFL have had plenty of time. Yes I have paid the PFN but that's up for discussion as well as they issued it after my ticket had be withdrawn hence the question over whether they sent my ticket to the prosecutions office. TFL told me to go get a lawyer. I wanted to go to the district court but everyone told me small claims. I was quoted £4000 for a lawyer just to represent me and another £300-£400 to send a couple of letters and there is no guarantee I would get the costs back.

It gets better - TFL also sent me correspondence to the incorrect email and mail address. This has caused delays. The letter that admits they got it wrong I never received as it had the incorrect postcode. I received it via London Travel Watch. TFL have a copy of the letter as I sent it to them recorded delivery along with all the other correspondence I have had regarding this issue. I can't give too much away but once this is all over I be putting all the documents online including the defense statements.

Whats the calculation for working out the value of a season ticket?

Dr

 

[PermitToTravel]

The details are available in our Fares & Ticketing Guide

I think (I am not a lawyer, and this really is something that you should ask a lawyer) that you are meant to claim for the actual costs you encountered, rather than the nominal value of the season ticket covering the days you didn't have one.

 

[bb21]

Yes I have paid the PFN but that's up for discussion as well as they issued it after my ticket had be withdrawn

Why?

You had no valid ticket for travel, so were correctly issued a Penalty Fare.

That's a totally separate issue to the withdrawal of your season ticket.

I am not going to comment on the rights and wrongs of the action to withdraw your ticket as I am not familiar with TfL's revenue protection policies on buses, but chances are that the RPI suspected that you were using your season ticket regularly on buses hence wanted to carry out further investigation. Something obviously went a bit wrong after that.

 

[47421]

Think you were well advised to go the small claims route, it is much more user friendly for the man on the street. In particular in the vast majority of cases in small claims court costs are not awarded, which gives you something of an advantage because TfL will not be able to recover their costs if they win. Their costs may not be large if they are using in house lawyers, but just having to check all the paperwork and show up in court will give rise to some costs for them.

I would sound a note of caution about the bus fare irregularity. Are you sure that you are not exposed to TfL revisiting that in a way that ends badly for you? Why did you show a train ticket on the bus? Did you think it was valid on the bus? How come? Which bus route and what journey were you making?

 

[34D]

Did you believe that there was an arrangement that day to accept your train ticket on a bus route, as there sometimes is at times of disruption or engineering work?

Did you show your monthly rail season to the bus driver when you boarded?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I understand that London bus drivers are used to people showing rail only seasons, and will usually challenge these if they have not been temporarily instructed to pass them.

 

[dr_novell]

Just a quick update - I now know exactly what happened through my own investigation.

TFL have offered some money but no liability. I think they now realise that they were not telling the truth and their versions of the facts was incorrect on the defense statement.

This is all less than 2 weeks before it goes to court.

 

[Abpj17]

From everything above, it seems you didn't have a valid ticket to travel on the bus (unless there were other issues at the time) - so they should have issued you a penalty fare.

Completely separate from that, taking your rail-only ticket, in simple layman's terms, was theft. TFL took and retained a valuable document from you that they seemingly had no entitlement too.

Frankly, this is one of those cases where - 4 months ago - it would have been better to settle. Or, email/write to the daily mail. They love stuff like this. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2732554/How-beat-rail-fare-rip-off.html

 

[Deerfold]

Just a quick update - I now know exactly what happened through my own investigation.

That's quite cryptic. And doesn't really help anyone following this thread.

TFL have offered some money but no liability. I think they now realise that they were not telling the truth and their versions of the facts was incorrect on the defense statement.

This is all less than 2 weeks before it goes to court.

Do let us know what happens.

 

[185]

Am I missing something? Surely, deliberately presenting an invalid item as a ticket opens the door for the clause authorised officials have the right to withdraw. Having Not London on the routing would surely cover the operator for this.

 

[talltim]

To my mind showing a train ticket on a bus is no different to showing an M&S voucher or a note from your mum or whatever. The bus company has every right to go after you for not having a bus ticket, but have no right to take it off you.

 

[reb0118]

To my mind showing a train ticket on a bus [means]..... [t]he bus company has every right to go after you for not having a bus ticket, but has no right to take it [from] you.

I am not a lawyer but surely the train ticket is evidence that may have to be presented in court and should therefore be retained by the inspector and attached to his report. If you are subsequently found innocent or indeed there is no case to answer the you are entitled to compensation for any monies that you have had to spend whilst the train ticket was unavailable to you. If you are found guilty then I believe that is "tough luck buster" © the RMT lawyer.

 

[Swirlz]

To my mind showing a train ticket on a bus is no different to showing an M&S voucher or a note from your mum or whatever. The bus company has every right to go after you for not having a bus ticket, but have no right to take it off you.

If a counterfeit/fraudulent copy of a ticket is NOT actually a ticket, then are you saying that an Inspector would not be permitted to withdraw it, because it belongs to the customer, and the bus/train company etc has nothing to do with it's issue/creation?

PACE 19 would allow a constable to seize the fraudulent ticket, but as far as I can see, there is no powers granted to any other person to seize items related to criminal activity. PACE 24A would allow the Inspector to arrest the passenger in possession of the fraudulent/counterfeit item, but my interpretation is that when the police turn up to assume custody, only they can seize belongings.