Could a Sleeper service run to Wick?

[TimboM]

There are so may cons that outweigh the pros for this service, the main one is it wouldn't make money.

The current CS service requires significant subsidy from Transport Scotland / DfT - both annually and in terms of the investment they've made in the new stock.
Any Far North sleeper service wouldn't be any different in that respect, although the 'business case' in terms of the investment being repaid via trade/tourism would be a lot less strong than for the current sleeper services.

 

[najaB]

Dont think any loops would make a difference the sleeper would run after all service trains are berthed for the night

If you note, the post I was quoting was about the northbound Caledonian Sleeper missing the first northbound train to Thurso/Wick. Nothing at all to do with a FNL sleeper.

 

[Far north 37]

If you note, the post I was quoting was about the northbound Caledonian Sleeper missing the first northbound train to Thurso/Wick. Nothing at all to do with a FNL sleeper.

Fair enough but the sleeper wont make the first 7.04 off inverness north no matter how much timings improvement but itsa fair point a 9 am ish departure would maybe worth a trial.

 

[Scotrail84]

Fair enough but the sleeper wont make the first 7.04 off inverness north no matter how much timings improvement but itsa fair point a 9 am ish departure would maybe worth a trial.

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Where do you get the stock, locos, crew etc from?

 

[Far north 37]

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Where do you get the stock, locos, crew etc from?

Never said it was ready to go said it might be worth a trial to look into dont think i said there was crew and stock ready waiting.

 

[najaB]

Where do you get the stock, locos, crew etc from?

It would be one extra unit - I'm sure that, given the length of time it would take to get the Lentran Loop, they'd be able to find a unit and crew.

 

[Flying Snail]

Well if anyone wants to seriously indulge this folly they'd better act quick, I can't imagine the ROSCOs will pay for long term secure storage for withdrawn Mk3 sleepers unless there is a serious proposal for their re-use.

 

[mullac30]

https://hitrans.org.uk/Documents/Midnight_Train_to_Georgemas_Presentation.pdf

This is the proposal for the sleeper, which includes a timetable.

 

[swaldman]

Sleeper arrives Inverness 0841, first train north departs 0700. The next departure to Wick is at 1041 arriving in Thurso at 1423 and the first Kyle train departs at 0855.

The next Scrabster-Stromness sailing is the 1900 departure in both the summer and the winter timetables, so it's not particularly well integrated. There isn't much to do in Thurso until 1830 when you have to be down at Scrabster unless you fancy an over-priced late lunch or early dinner at the Y-Not...

Indeed - at the moment one can choose whether to wait ~4 hours in Inverness or Thurso/Scrabster. The point is that if one were able to get that 0700 departure from Inverness (or if that were a little later, or both), then one could get to Scrabster in plenty of time for the 1315 boat. Would have been a lot more useful in the past, though, before Serco took over the ferries and cut that sailing out of the timetable for 9 months of the year.

 

[Esker-pades]

Indeed - at the moment one can choose whether to wait ~4 hours in Inverness or Thurso/Scrabster. The point is that if one were able to get that 0700 departure from Inverness (or if that were a little later, or both), then one could get to Scrabster in plenty of time for the 1315 boat. Would have been a lot more useful in the past, though, before Serco took over the ferries and cut that sailing out of the timetable for 9 months of the year.

Would an extra service north to connect with the sleeper, as well as an extra service south (just to balance the timetables) work?

 

[BRX]

First of the mk3s off for scrap the other day. I take it the Wick sleeper idea is going nowhere, right?

 

[najaB]

It's likely going nowhere, not they'd only need six or eight Mk3's so the idea isn't dead yet.

 

[Highlandspring]

I take it the Wick sleeper idea is going nowhere, right?

It never was. It was only ever a fantasy from the mind of a HiTrans board member.

 

[najaB]

It never was. It was only ever a fantasy from the mind of a HiTrans board member.

Every project starts off as an idea. I'm sure the Borders Railway was considered fantasy for a long time.

(Not that I'm saying this idea has legs, of course.)

 

[berneyarms]

Regardless - there are still plenty of Mk 3 sleepers that could be used for it were to happen. It would be a shorter train remember too.

 

[VT 390]

who would would board for Edinburgh from Aberdeen at that time too?

Someone who needs to get to london early but does not want to take the Caledonian sleeper

 

[Alicatt]

Would there be any merit in combining this with one of the Highland Sleepers from London to enable a through service, perhaps splitting at Edinburgh?

That would have been my ideal service, having a home in Wick and working in London, I used the London/Inverness/London Caley Sleepers a lot, every couple of weeks or so along with the Highland Chieftain when I could get off early, but that meant having to arrange transport from Inverness to Wick. Before that I used to use the late night train from Glasgow to Inverness transfer over to the Wick train at 4ish in the morning and go back to sleep in the compartment.

 

[Struner]

If it would provide a decent connection with a ferry to Orkney

 

[VT 390]

As much as I would like the Wick sleeper to be part of the existing sleeper I do not think it would be possible or the demand be there for it. The reason I say this is that the current sleeper will be using the new Mk 5 stock and the Wick sleeper is proposed to use the Mk 3 stock displaced from the current sleeper services so the two are incompatible and there would not be enough of the new stock to go to Wick as well as the existing destinations. Also for the amount of passengers that would make the journey it would not be worth the reduced capacity on the other routes but if the stock could be found it would be quite good to extend the sleeper from Aberdeen via Dyce to Wick avoiding Inverness as this portion is usually lightly loaded.

 

[Esker-pades]

As much as I would like the Wick sleeper to be part of the existing sleeper I do not think it would be possible or the demand be there for it. The reason I say this is that the current sleeper will be using the new Mk 5 stock and the Wick sleeper is proposed to use the Mk 3 stock displaced from the current sleeper services so the two are incompatible and there would not be enough of the new stock to go to Wick as well as the existing destinations. Also for the amount of passengers that would make the journey it would not be worth the reduced capacity on the other routes but if the stock could be found it would be quite good to extend the sleeper from Aberdeen via Dyce to Wick avoiding Inverness as this portion is usually lightly loaded.

The proposal is not to add a Wick portion to the exisiting Highland sleeper. It is to have an entirely new sleeper which starts from Edinburgh or Glasgow in the evening and runs to Thurso via Aberdeen and Inverness.

If one ran the Wick service as an extension of the existing service, it could only be done from the Inverness portion. If one did it from the Aberdeen portion, it arrive in Wick far, far too late.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If one ran the Wick service as an extension of the existing service, it could only be done from the Inverness portion. If one did it from the Aberdeen portion, it arrive in Wick far, far too late.

Even if it was off the Inverness, it wouldn't arrive in Wick until lunchtime - and the southbound would have to leave in mid afternoon.

 

[Mathew S]

Even if it was off the Inverness, it wouldn't arrive in Wick until lunchtime - and the southbound would have to leave in mid afternoon.

Indeed. It is worth remembering that daytime journeys from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Wick are ~8 hours.

If, and it's a huge if, the Wick sleeper were ever to come about, it would, in my opinion, make more sense to run it as connecting from the 1930 VTWC Euston - Glasgow service which arrives at Central at midnight; or perhaps even better with the 1900 Kings Cross - Edinburgh which gets in at approximately 2330.

Still don't think it's ever going to happen but, if it did, that would seem the way to do it.

 

[Class 170101]

Indeed. It is worth remembering that daytime journeys from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Wick are ~8 hours.

If, and it's a huge if, the Wick sleeper were ever to come about, it would, in my opinion, make more sense to run it as connecting from the 1930 VTWC Euston - Glasgow service which arrives at Central at midnight; or perhaps even better with the 1900 Kings Cross - Edinburgh which gets in at approximately 2330.

Still don't think it's ever going to happen but, if it did, that would seem the way to do it.

I heard it was a train from Glasgow to Edinburgh (south sub I guess) thence forward to Inverness via the HML and then onto Thurso and Wick.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Looking at the proposed timetable I downloaded like an hour ago, the proposed service from Inverness would be almost perfect as regards getting back to Oxford - arriving at 05:23 and the Reading train leaving at 07:00, arriving at Oxford around 12:40.

You never know that the XC timetable may change a bit by the time I go to Inverness, which is likely to be in 2022. A few years of I know, but once I've done Edinburgh next year, then Dundee or Aberdeen in 2021 then I might think about.

I'll be making some day trips when I'm on holiday in these parts of the UK but just saying as regards holidays.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

How expensive would it be to convert Mark 4's from LNER to sleeper vehicles. I know they're heavier but I'm sure they'd last longer than Mark 2's and Mark 3's. Plus there's well over 100 Mark 4's becoming available soon. They're also much newer than the Mark 3's too.

 

[najaB]

How expensive would it be to convert Mark 4's from LNER to sleeper vehicles. I know they're heavier but I'm sure they'd last longer than Mark 2's and Mark 3's. Plus there's well over 100 Mark 4's becoming available soon. They're also much newer than the Mark 3's too.

Short answer: Very.

Long answer: Extremely.

 

[Journeyman]

Short answer: Very.

Long answer: Extremely.

Make that impossible. Why make this project even more of a non-starter than it already is?

 

[najaB]

Make that impossible.

Nothing is impossible given a suffiently large pile of money. (In this case, the pile might be around the same size as a Mk4 coach!)

 

[bspahh]

Nothing is impossible given a suffiently large pile of money. (In this case, the pile might be around the same size as a Mk4 coach!)

I like this quote from https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1925

With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

 

[jagardner1984]

There is a new post on hi trans where this has been discussed again.

Amongst the standout points.

1. Proposing two sleeper cars and two seated cars.
2. Suggested southbound, would depart 1930 and arrive Glasgow via Carstairs 0815.
3. Suggesting this would require higher level of subsidy than current CS.
4. Estimating 30000 pax a year. The majority from Inverness.
5. Noting that this would require a derogation for the mk3s.

All feels like someone playing trains rather than a serious suggestion.

It does make you wonder where you have areas with very poor rail connectivity such as the far north, whether some form of improved sleeper coach might get a bit of use. I’m interested by a trip to Orkney and it seems perfectly possible to have a service leaving Buchanan bus station at 10pm and making the first ferry from Scrabster. An equivalent rail service doesn’t seem possible.

Whatever happened to those megabus gold coaches they withdrew ....