Could we ever see the Caledonian Sleeper calling at Birmingham New Street?

[the sniper]

After recently trying to plan a trip back from Inverness to Birmingham, I was mildly surprised and disappointed that the last direct train to BHM from Glasgow leaves at 18:40. Of course, the sleeper is an option direct from Inverness but that would mean getting off at Crewe at 05:38 and waiting 40mins for the onwards connection. So now I'm looking to book another night in Inverness. And don't worry, I'm not looking for travel advice.

The above scenario though did get me thinking of the good old Sleeper routes that nearly survived to see privatisation. Having a look at a 1989 timetable that I've got, it seems to me that the West Midlands and New Street in particular were some of the biggest victimss of the late BR cuts to the routes. Attached below are the (probably not very well used in those days ) services that passed through New Street during the Summer timetable of '89. Those timetables don't include the normal long distance trains that also passed through of a night time.

Anyway, the main point of me starting this thread is to ask this question, does anyone think we could see either the High or Lowland sleeper stopping at Birmingham NS and maybe even Brum International, like the good ol' days? My personal preference would be for the Highland sleeper, as the choice of destinations and longer journey times makes for a better 'Sleeper experience'.

Thinking of things that might be getting in the way of running it via Brum, I believe the Highland sleeper would be at least a carriage length longer than the longest platforms at BHM, Plts 1 and 4. Would this be an impossible hurdle to overcome or would it just be an inconvenience? I suppose at the time it'd be coming into New Street it wouldn't present too much of a problem congestion wise. I'd assume that the other probable problem would be the time it'd take to go via Brum, but looking at the old timetable and current one, it doesn't look impossible. Certainly not on the northbound working, even for the Highland sleeper which seems to have a less generous schedule than the Lowlander.

If necessary, could other stops be dropped without causing too much hardship? I'm sure I've read here in the past that Watford Junction generally only sees between 0 and 3 people getting on... Surely with BHM having a population of 1 million+, compared to 121,000 in Watford, or the West Midlands conurbation having a population of 2.2+ million compared to whole of Hertfordshire's 1 million residents, Birmingham would be a good market for Scotrail to aim for? I unfortunately assume that the Sleepers aren't regularly full, so wouldn't they welcome the opportunity for extra passengers? Or is it a sad case of the TOC doing as little as they can within the limits of their franchise, with them actually preferring that less people use it...?

Thanks for reading this overly long post! And yes, I have had too much time on my hand this evening.

 

[KingBBoogaloo]

I have long since thought a Birmingham stop on the Aberdeen/Inverness/Fort William Sleeper would generate more business than the current Crewe or Preston stops.

 

[pmgarvey]

It always surprises me the Sleeper doesn't stop at loads of stations. It's not rushed for time (is it true it runs at a deliberately slow speed and still spends long periods sat at stations?) and if it doesn't run full there's no harm stopping at a fair few major stations on the WCML.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I don't know about station dwell times, the Paddington - Penzance one does though as it's too short of a route really to cover in 8 hours. The WCML one does run slower on purpose though it is for comfort reasons. I don't think anyone would like to sleep on the top bunk whilst bouncing over some junction bombing through at 100mph

 

[The Planner]

Thinking of things that might be getting in the way of running it via Brum, I believe the Highland sleeper would be at least a carriage length longer than the longest platforms at BHM, Plts 1 and 4. Would this be an impossible hurdle to overcome or would it just be an inconvenience? I suppose at the time it'd be coming into New Street it wouldn't present too much of a problem congestion wise.

The back end would have to hang off the back of the platform Id expect as the signals are close to the platform ends. Depends on what time of night it gets there, New St still has a few ECS movements knocking about at night.

 

[cuccir]

It always surprises me the Sleeper doesn't stop at loads of stations. It's not rushed for time (is it true it runs at a deliberately slow speed and still spends long periods sat at stations?) and if it doesn't run full there's no harm stopping at a fair few major stations on the WCML.

If it stops at a station though, that means the station needs to be kept open with more staff for longer. A lot of stations are shut through the night.

That said, a south west to north east & Glasgow sleeper could work, basically on the xc route. Run exeter, bristol, Birmingham, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow. Could connect to other services at Glasgow if well timed

 

[NightatLaira]

If it stops at a station though, that means the station needs to be kept open with more staff for longer. A lot of stations are shut through the night.

That said, a south west to north east & Glasgow sleeper could work, basically on the xc route. Run exeter, bristol, Birmingham, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow. Could connect to other services at Glasgow if well timed

I've long since thought this as well - the obvious candidates are South Wales + Bristol to Scotland, calling at Bham.

Just out of interest on that 1989 timetable - which Glasgow station was it referring to? And did it presumably have to reverse out?

 

[lemonic]

The WCML one does run slower on purpose though it is for comfort reasons. I don't think anyone would like to sleep on the top bunk whilst bouncing over some junction bombing through at 100mph

Sleeper trains in continental Europe regularly travel at speeds of up to 125mph (and possibly higher on some routes).

 

[cle]

I could see maybe a Cardiff - Newport - Bristol TM - Bristol PW (or any combo of those) - Cheltenham - Birmingham and next stop Scotland.

Or the London highland one could pick up at New St.

 

[NightatLaira]

Sleeper trains in continental Europe regularly travel at speeds of up to 125mph (and possibly higher on some routes).

And they still have Motorail, and it's well used... despit the fact that Europe 'has a decent motorway network' - which is often the excuse as to why our Motorail services were withdrawn. I have often wondered if a Motorail service would work from somewhere like Kensington Olympia to the South of France via the Chunnel.:roll: Be a good way of getting all the bankers Ferraris down to Monaco and back...

 

[swt_passenger]

And they still have Motorail, and it's well used...

The man in seat 61 suggests that motorail in France has been seriously cut back. Maybe it isn't as well used as you think...

http://www.seat61.com/Motorail.htm#French Motorail

 

[junglejames]

Now motorail is one thing id like to see back in this country. Assuming the costs are reasonable to put your car on the train. It saves driving all the way up to Scotland.

 

[NightatLaira]

I tried to get my car on Hamburg Altona to Alessandria earlier this summer over several different dates and it was fully booked... I'm sure in the Winter it's much quieter. Don't know about the north-south French Motorail trains but I've been on the Munich - Amsterdam and Munich - Paris sleepers (no Motorail) and they are ALWAYS packed.

 

[Nym]

Well, I'd consider the major change for sleepers could be for them to stop at both Birmingham NS and Manchester Piccadilly on their way to Scotland, in addition to CRE and PRE for the highland sleeper.

If more sleepers come back out again then we'd need to look at where (serviceable) stock for it is going to come from though...

 

[Aictos]

While I don't believe that the Highland sleeper should be routed to call at Birmingham and Manchester due to rolling stock and time restrictions, however I do not oppose the Lowland sleeper from calling at Birmingham or Manchester as it should be doing especially given the lack of a South West to Scotland via Birmingham service.

 

[Yew]

Now motorail is one thing id like to see back in this country. Assuming the costs are reasonable to put your car on the train. It saves driving all the way up to Scotland.

espacially if people start having electric cars, that would get over the range constraints easily

 

[mallard]

If more sleepers come back out again then we'd need to look at where (serviceable) stock for it is going to come from though...

Did all the Nightstar stock go to Canada or is there some still in storage? Maybe we could get some of it back...

Of course, they'd need a thorough refit and conversion to achieve a more realistic ETS consumption figure.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

From what I have read the slower speed is due to comfort reasons. The euro lot proably have better track too and I would agree.
I don't think the 90s go that slow mind, I think the restriction is around 80-90mph?

 

[cuccir]

I could see maybe a Cardiff - Newport - Bristol TM - Bristol PW (or any combo of those) - Cheltenham - Birmingham and next stop Scotland.

Or the London highland one could pick up at New St.

I think you'd at least want to stop at Leeds or York - if timed correctly you'd be able to connect to the overnight TPE services between York and Manchester.

 

[tbtc]

Out of interest, on what proportion of nights do the sleepers deviate from the "main" WCML route between Euston and Carstairs?

One of the arguments for not complicating things by additional stops (and for only stopping at stations that you can't avoid - Preston/ Crewe/ Watford) is that it allows for flexibility due to engineering work etc (e.g. you could run Preston - Manchester - Crewe - Birmingham - Watford instead of the main line).

 

[fgwrich]

Did all the Nightstar stock go to Canada or is there some still in storage? Maybe we could get some of it back...

Of course, they'd need a thorough refit and conversion to achieve a more realistic ETS consumption figure.

Nope, I believe it all went over to Canada - Finnished & Unfinnished! Though i gather the GEC Almost electrical toilets don't like the colder winters!

 

[sprinterguy]

Sleeper trains in continental Europe regularly travel at speeds of up to 125mph (and possibly higher on some routes).

Do they use the High Speed lines though? Which are probably better laid (much fewer crossovers and junctions to contend with for a start) and considerably less sinuous than the WCML.

I'm in agreement with a number of other posters that I think it would make a lot of sense for a Sleeper service to call at Birmingham New Street, and there have been occasions where I have really wished that it was the case, rather than having the inconvenience of having to catch a connecting train to Crewe (I've yet to use the Caledonian Sleeper, partly because I've been put off by the more complex travel arrangements needed to access it from Birmingham).

Either one of the existing Sleepers could be diverted to serve Birmingham, possibly with the loss of a Crewe stop, or I would personally be quite keen to see a Cardiff-Bristol-Birmingham-Edinburgh-Aberdeen sleeper service introduced: I'm not sure how I would like to see it routed between Birmingham and Edinburgh: Routing it via the WCML would keep it standard with the other Scottish sleepers, but if it to be routed up the East Coast by way of Derby then I think that a Leeds stop would be beneficial.

 

[anthony263]

I think a sleeper from Penzance/Plymouth to Aberdeen would be great, route this via the east coast mainline

 

[dvboy]

If it stops at a station though, that means the station needs to be kept open with more staff for longer. A lot of stations are shut through the night.

BHM is open 24 hours despite there being a gap of about 4 hours with no trains. The exits to the Pallasades and Victoria Square close overnight though.

 

[the sniper]

Thanks for the replies guys.

That said, a south west to north east & Glasgow sleeper could work, basically on the xc route. Run exeter, bristol, Birmingham, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow. Could connect to other services at Glasgow if well timed

Very nice idea, but it'd require DfT subsidy and thus political will to provide it. Also, I sadly doubt that most of the redundant Mk3 Sleeper stock is in any condition in which it could be easily returned to service. I think I've also read on this site that a shortage of the type of bogies used by the Sleeper Mk3s is one of the reason why BR cut back the number of sleeper routes, Idk how true that is though. As such, realistically there's next to no chance of any new additional Sleeper routes until the Mk3s are replaced, if they're ever replaced...

Just out of interest on that 1989 timetable - which Glasgow station was it referring to? And did it presumably have to reverse out?

Glasgow Central. The timetable doesn't make it clear but looking at the timings I guess the train split in Glasgow Central station, with one portion going to Stranraer and the other Fort William.

If more sleepers come back out again then we'd need to look at where (serviceable) stock for it is going to come from though...

Does anyone know of a comprehensive list detailing the whereabouts and condition of the 100+ Sleeper Mk3s that aren't in use with FGW or Scotrail? Have any of the rail mags ever done one as part of a feature?

 

[Liam]

One issue is that the Lowland sleeper leaves London at 2350. Give it a couple of hours to reach BHM, at it's 0200.

The Highland probably couldn't stop at BHM as it would get in the way of Virgin's early services to London. It usually already waits outside Rugby for a while to let some services past.

 

[sprinterguy]

Does anyone know of a comprehensive list detailing the whereabouts and condition of the 100+ Sleeper Mk3s that aren't in use with FGW or Scotrail? Have any of the rail mags ever done one as part of a feature?

Scrapped, or acting as volunteers' accomodation at preserved railways. There aren't dozens of mark 3 sleepers lying around the network in case they need to be returned to use, in fact, there's about a dozen spare sleepers still registered for use on Network Rail metals (In fact, there's exactly a dozen according to Platform 5, and nine of them are reported as being "Withdrawn awaiting disposal" so it can be assumed that they're not in any condition to return to service).

 

[the sniper]

Scrapped, or acting as volunteers' accomodation at preserved railways. There aren't dozens of mark 3 sleepers lying around the network in case they need to be returned to use, in fact, there's about a dozen spare sleepers still registered for use on Network Rail metals (In fact, there's exactly a dozen according to Platform 5, and nine of them are reported as being "Withdrawn awaiting disposal" so it can be assumed that they're not in any condition to return to service).

Thanks for that, I guessed most of them had ended up on preserved railways. I'm actually surprised by how many are still registered for use of NR rails, even if they are beyond working order.

Does anybody know how many have actually been physically cut up and scrapped? Seems a shame that such relatively new, yet redundant stock could have faced the scrap man.

 

[rail-britain]

Glasgow Central. The timetable doesn't make it clear but looking at the timings I guess the train split in Glasgow Central station, with one portion going to Stranraer and the other Fort William

The Aberdeen portions included the portion for Fort William, the Stranraer was merged at Carlisle on to the Glasgow

The Glasgow and Edinburgh - Plymouth sleepers used to merge / split at Carstairs
This was later merged into one service
The Birmingham NS stop was necessary for a loco change
Due to poor loadings the service ceased and on those grounds is not likely to ever be reintroduced

I personally feel Crewe is a good remaining compromise, for Birmingham
40 minutes allow plenty of flexibility, should the southbound be late or the northbound connection be late
The Glasgow / Edinburgh could serve Birmingham and would probably be the better option
Equally, the southbound sleepers already sit at Rugby (depending on time keeping) so why not include this as a station stop in both directions

 

[Daimler]

I could see maybe a Cardiff - Newport - Bristol TM - Bristol PW (or any combo of those) - Cheltenham - Birmingham and next stop Scotland.

I agree - surely there must be a market for an overnight train from South Wales/South West to Scotland?

I suspect the problem these days is that the rolling stock is no longer available. While there are a fair few about, the state of the Mk3 sleepers lying around at various preservation sites is, from what I've seen, none too great.