Coupling and uncoupling with passengers on board

[Bletchleyite]

I got talking to a guard this evening about why it was that LNR can couple and uncouple at Northampton with passengers on board, but not at Euston. She told me that the reason was that at Northampton the train is uncoupled by driving it forwards, but at Euston this can't be done because of signal position, and they can't reverse (i.e. drive the train backwards from the front cab) with passengers on board. She also mentioned that the uncoupling classed as a DOO move which was another reason why not (and indeed she stood on the platform while it took place).

It seemed to make sense, but seemed a *little* confused.

Does anyone have any more specifics on this?

 

[farci]

Not a railwayman but coupling with passengers on-board is normal practice at Glasgow Central for some DMU services

 

[trebor79]

DOO services couple and uncouple all the time with passengers on board at Ely and Cambridge.

 

[PHILIPE]

Happens all day at Machynlleth and Shrewsbury.
At Cardiff Central when Cardiff Valley trains attach, the doors are opened to allow Cardiff passengers to alight and any intending passengers to board. Then the coupling unit comes on and after coupling the doors are opened again for any other joining passengers to board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

DOO services couple and uncouple all the time with passengers on board at Ely and Cambridge.

They might where DOO(P) is authorised, but it isn't on the south WCML.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

And at Purley.

 

[Macwomble]

Crianlarich.....when the WHL trains to Oban & Fort William split/join.

 

[swt_passenger]

SWR (and SWT previously) routinely split long trains with passengers onboard, the front portion stays still and the driver in the front cab of the rear portion reverses his train a couple of feet backwards.

As usual every TOC has its own procedures, and you just can’t generalise about what is and isn’t allowed.

I don’t think Bletchleyite is just after a list of places where it is done, he’s after the exact detail about how they do it, in terms of moving backwards or forwards, passengers on or off etc.

 

[bramling]

DOO services couple and uncouple all the time with passengers on board at Ely and Cambridge.

For a while recently there was an issue at Cambridge, following a well-publicised "rough shunt" involving a pair of 365s joining, which made local news. I'm not sure of the specifics, however I seem to remember drivers were refusing to couple with passengers on the empty unit, where it had previously been the case that the attaching unit would be left open to allow people to join whilst the Kings Lynn unit was awaited. Anyone able to say what happens now?

 

[trebor79]

Last time I was there waiting for a London train, 8 cars arrived at the platform. Displays stated it "terminates here", although it was empty and the doors were unlocked. Lots of confused punters as it was only about 2 minutes before the train to London was meant to depart (from the same platform).
I realised that 4 cars from Kings Lynn would soon couple up so hopped on board for the pick of the seats.

So perhaps that's the compromise they are working with?

 

[bengley]

They might where DOO(P) is authorised, but it isn't on the south WCML.

It certainly is at Euston. London Overground operate DOO from there.
LNWR don't operate DOO, so that may be why.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SWR (and SWT previously) routinely split long trains with passengers onboard, the front portion stays still and the driver in the front cab of the rear portion reverses his train a couple of feet backwards.

As usual every TOC has its own procedures, and you just can’t generalise about what is and isn’t allowed.

I don’t think Bletchleyite is just after a list of places where it is done, he’s after the exact detail about how they do it, in terms of moving backwards or forwards, passengers on or off etc.

I’m mostly interested in why specifically passengers can’t be on board at Euston but can at Northampton.

 

[LAX54]

Colchester, Ipswich, Norwich, all do it day in day out Used to be a rule, and whether it still applies I don't know, the 'shorter' train attaches to the longer (assuming they are not both the same !)
so a 4 car attaching to an 8 car already there is fine, but if there is a 4 car waiting for an 8, it will be the 4 attaching to the arrival, this was at least how it worked on the SR in the 80's /90's

But I reckon its now rear attaches to front regardless of length.

 

[cactustwirly]

Use to be done at Reading and Paddington, in the shoulder peaks, back when the stoppers were 16x operated.

 

[Starmill]

The actual rules are as much dictated by the TOC policy as anything else. SWR had rules against attaching class 455s with passengers onboard, but Southern used to do it all day every day at Purley.

Train attachments in the UK seem exceptionally safe compared to many other European railways, some of whom seem entirely happy to conduct shunts and attachments with open doors.

 

[theageofthetra]

I won't attach without both units locked out and empty.

 

[LowLevel]

I won't attach without both units locked out and empty.

Why...? Portion working has been in place for centuries, it's done pretty much every daytime hour of every day on the network

Do you refuse to run into permissive platforms as well, if you mess that up you'll still have a collision.

Caley Sleeper, EMT, TfW, Southern, SWR, SouthEastern all do it regularly.

I'm not having a go at you personally but it's one of those things on the railway where I can't understand the aversion to a piece of perfectly regular and normal railway work the world over in some individuals and organisations. Correctly managed it's perfectly safe and regular.

 

[LAX54]

I won't attach without both units locked out and empty.

Apart from annoying the passengers having to get off, then on again, I would not have thought there is enough time in the timetable to cater for this ?

Like 'LowLevel' am a bit bewildered why you need units detrained and locked.

 

[theageofthetra]

Why...? Portion working has been in place for centuries, it's done pretty much every daytime hour of every day on the network

Do you refuse to run into permissive platforms as well, if you mess that up you'll still have a collision.

Caley Sleeper, EMT, TfW, Southern, SWR, SouthEastern all do it regularly.

I'm not having a go at you personally but it's one of those things on the railway where I can't understand the aversion to a piece of perfectly regular and normal railway work the world over in some individuals and organisations. Correctly managed it's perfectly safe and regular.

Try attaching a Networker on a curved platform at Cannon St. I've been thrown to the floor in a rear cab whilst that's been done. If that happens to an elderly passenger or a child what do you think will happen to the driver? Unfortunately today's blame someone else and sue society means it's simply too risky.

 

[bramling]

If that happens to an elderly passenger or a child what do you think will happen to the driver? Unfortunately today's blame someone else and sue society means it's simply too risky.

Providing the driver has complied with the rule book and any local/company instructions then I don’t see the issue - should anything happen then it’s down to the TOC and the people who signed off the procedure.

Of course if the driver makes a hash of things and something happens then that’s a different matter, however things aren’t normally planned on that basis!

 

[Melancholia]

GWR couple and split train with passengers on board.

Chiltern however has a strict rule, where both coupling and splitting requires the train to be empty, no passengers on board.

 

[dk1]

I know crew that make all passengers detrain when coupling a couple of DMUs together Whatever has the railway come to? Quick announcement to remain seated will do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know crew that make all passengers detrain when coupling a couple of DMUs together Whatever has the railway come to? Quick announcement to remain seated will do.

Desiros actually have a standard automatic announcement to this end, I can't recall the wording.

But back to the original question, it seems like we are highlighting that it isn't consistent across TOCs. But why the inconsistency *within* the TOC? Is it in LNR's case a policy that you can't set back/propel/whatever it's called to reverse a train from the front cab with passengers on?

 

[philjo]

For a while recently there was an issue at Cambridge, following a well-publicised "rough shunt" involving a pair of 365s joining, which made local news. I'm not sure of the specifics, however I seem to remember drivers were refusing to couple with passengers on the empty unit, where it had previously been the case that the attaching unit would be left open to allow people to join whilst the Kings Lynn unit was awaited. Anyone able to say what happens now?

The southbound services from Cambridge normally use Platform 7 now. Whenever I have seen them recently the empty unit(s) of 4 or 8 coaches arrive in to the platform about 15 minutes before departure time and the doors open to allow passengers to board.
The 4 coaches from Kings Lynn then arrive later. The doors open and passengers can leave/board. Doors on both portions then close. The train couples (the driver of the Kings Lynn portion couples onto the unit in front). Then the doors reopen briefly before departure. At peak hours both portions can already be full and standing before the units couple.

 

[whhistle]

Was the 2nd unit empty at NMP?

I'm sure I've been on a train before where we attached to an empty unit. Passengers on the 1st unit were kept on (IE, doors were not released) with announcements saying what would happen but nobody from the platform was allowed on the empty unit until after the procedure.

I also wonder whether the Euston crew (ex-Silverlink) have different procedures to Northampton crew (ex-Central), which could explain.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was the 2nd unit empty at NMP?

I believe they couple two units *both with passengers on* at NMP.

 

[dk1]

Desiros actually have a standard automatic announcement to this end, I can't recall the wording.

But back to the original question, it seems like we are highlighting that it isn't consistent across TOCs. But why the inconsistency *within* the TOC? Is it in LNR's case a policy that you can't set back/propel/whatever it's called to reverse a train from the front cab with passengers on?

Inconsistency everywhere. Does my head in. Drivers seem scared of their own shadows and it's breeding. You do not need to get passengers off with their luggage etc only to make them get on again.

 

[swt_passenger]

Could be a different risk assessment for a terminus. If an arrival at Euston joining on to a waiting portion has a hard collision with the train at the buffers then it would be worse than the same impact on a through line. But as has been discussed in previous threads about this topic, if an arriving train at a terminus is to split before it’s return trip, then that shouldn’t affect passengers, they can easily be told not to board yet.

 

[Aictos]

GN drivers simply make a announcement to advise they're coupling or uncoupling and for any passengers to remain seated while they do this.

They also used to say the doors will close while they do this now not used the GN for a while but that's what they did across the network with no issues.

Saying that I knew one or two locations had the 1st unit completely shut down with the 2nd one also being completely shut down before the driver would couple or in couple so it even varies within the TOCs depending on where the duties of coupling or uncoupling are being carried out.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If LNR make everyone get off on the splits/joins on the new timetable, Birmingham is going to be chaos! Virgin happily join/split with passengers on board at Chester, Crewe, Wolverhampton and Birmingham.