Court rules in favour of passenger using a permitted route

[trevmonk]

This topic has been discussed on here several times but now someone has taken the trouble to sue First Capital Connect when they didn't want him to save £700 on his season by walking between the two St Albans stations. It looks as though that loophole has been closed now.

http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/new...2_000_in_FCC_season_ticket_overcharging_case/

A St Albans man has successfully sued First Capital Connect over a ticket row, after noticing city commuters have been paying £700 more for a season ticket than a neighbouring town.
Following a court hearing today at St Albans County Court, in Bricket Road, Andrew Myers has been paid off £2,193.96 by the train bosses.
In November last year he logged online and realised a season ticket for people travelling to and from St Albans City was £3,908, in comparison to a season ticket for people travelling to and from Watford North was £3,200.
After his findings, he purchased a Watford North season ticket, £700 cheaper, after reading a Network Rail journey planner online, which states people can make “any route to zones 1 and 6 with a season ticket.”
Mr Myers said: “I was just browsing online when I realised it was £700 cheaper, so decided to buy the Watford North ticket on the basis it was a valid ticket.

 

[maniacmartin]

The newspaper article is not very clear - referring to "Network Rail" journey planners, and giving a quote “any route to zones 1 and 6 with a season ticket.” which could easily be misinterpreted by other travellers as meaning you don't have to consult the Routing Guide at all.

My understanding from reading the article is he was using a Watford North - London Zones 1-6 ticket with a mapped route via the St Albans Abbey line and starting short at St Albans City.

Whilst he was clearly using a loophole, it doesn't excuse FCC corresponding with ATOC and concluding that the ticket was valid, and still publicly claiming it wasn't. It's probably only because he went all the way to court that this information is out in the public.

During initial proceedings with FCC, the train bosses refused to accept liability and insisted the Watford North ticket was invalid because Mr Myers was travelling from St Albans.

However findings by Mr Myers, which were read out in court, using the Data Protection Act showed emails back and forth from FCC staff in correspondence with Association of Train Operating Companies, which show FCC accepting the Watford North season ticket was in fact valid.

 

[soil]

This is the problem with private companies running monopoly public services.

They tried very hard to pay him off with no publicity.

Most of the time this would succeed.

But he insisted on going to court.

Helps that he was a lawyer.

Shame he didn't go for more costs, I would have thought the usual rate for a solicitor was £200/hr or so.

 

[tony_mac]

Shame he didn't go for more costs, I would have thought the usual rate for a solicitor was £200/hr or so.

£18 / hour is the standard rate for a litigant in person.

 

[soil]

It is a travelcard and it is still valid.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/WFN/ELS/tomorrow/1100/dep

The default route from Watford North to Elstree & Borehamwood is via St Albans/walk, and NRE shows it as valid with a travelcard.

Carpenders Park would have been cheaper of course

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/CPK/ELS/tomorrow/1100/dep?via=St_Albans_Abbey

 

[CNash]

I assume a new negative easement will be going in to prohibit travel via St Albans on a ticket from any of the stations along the St Albans Abbey line?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I assume a new negative easement will be going in to prohibit travel via St Albans on a ticket from any of the stations along the St Albans Abbey line?

Although you'd think it would have happened by now; this seems to have been in the pipeline for months. FCC were presumably annoyed that their FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) tactics didn't work on this man, but it didn't stop their solicitor trying it again: "Andrew Trimble, the solicitor representing FCC, said he wanted to reassure other commuters that changes to this year’s season tickets are currently taking place." What a silly vague threat that is! Classic FUD.

 

[soil]

According to this:

http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/10709880.Train_ticket_overpricing_loop_hole_closed__says_FCC/

it's already closed.

More lies/FUD.

 

[maniacmartin]

Another confusingly written news story from St Albans review

A loop hole, which has seen St Albans commuters paying £700 more for a First Capital Connect (FCC) season ticket than a neighbouring town, has been closed.

The loophole wasn't that it costs 700 more from St Albans - that's expected as its further away. The loophole was *not* paying the 700 quid.

Roger Perkins, from First Capital Connect, said: "Mr Myers uncovered a previously unknown historic routing guide error that harks back to the days of British Rail.

Unlikely, given the Routeing Guide in it's current form didn't even exist under British Rail

"The Association of Train Operating Companies has now closed."

Has it now? I very much doubt that

 

[bb21]

Well, Watford North - Elstree via St Albans is either the shortest route, or shorter than the shortest route if the shortest route must be wholly on the rails, so this ticket is bizarrely valid that way.

The article doesn't exactly state what ticket he was using so most people would be none the wiser. Doomed for failure from FCC's respect right from the beginning. Good job that it went to court rather than the matter being settled out-of-court.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Well, Watford North - Elstree via St Albans is either the shortest route, or shorter than the shortest route if the shortest route must be wholly on the rails, so this ticket is bizarrely valid that way.

The article doesn't exactly state what ticket he was using so most people would be none the wiser.

Fairly clear from this, I think, that it's an outboundary Travelcard season from Watford North (and the £700 difference matches up too - actually it's £708) - but as you say that wouldn't be obvious to everybody:

After his findings, he purchased a Watford North season ticket, £700 cheaper, after reading a Network Rail journey planner online, which states people can make “any route to zones 1 and 6 with a season ticket.”

The Travelcard is valid via St Albans because it's a permitted route for Watford North to Elstree & Borehamwood, which as you say is shorter than the shortest route by rail so undisputably valid; I don't think they will be able to change this with a negative easement.

 

[bb21]

The Travelcard is valid via St Albans because it's a permitted route for Watford North to Elstree & Borehamwood, which as you say is shorter than the shortest route by rail so undisputably valid; I don't think they will be able to change this with a negative easement.

They won't, but they can change the routing to something like "Via Watford Junc" or "Not Via St Albns".

Can anyone check whether this is a protected flow? I can't at the moment.

 

[LexyBoy]

Ensuring the journey planners don't allow it will put most people off - the FUD approach as noted above.

The routeing could be changed if LM as the fare setter agreed to this (presumably they would). I don't know if it's a protected flow - usually I would say it would make no difference but if this chap has gone this far with FCC then who knows!

 

[soil]

There is a clearer statement of BS by FCC here:

http://www.hertsad.co.uk/news/fcc_c...le_after_sued_by_st_albans_commuter_1_2836807

'Following the case Roger Perkins for FCC said: “Mr Myers uncovered a previously unknown historic routing guide error that harks back to the days of British Rail.

Tickets from Watford North should be valid only via Watford Junction to Euston, not via St Albans, which is a six mile, 14 minute detour north east away from London followed by a 20 minute walk across town between St Albans Abbey and St Albans City to take one of our services into St Pancras International. The Association of Train Operating Companies has now closed this loophole on our behalf.”'

This is lies by FCC.

There is no error here, it's standard zonal routeing rules.

Mr. Perkins' contact details are here:

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.u...pital-connect-charges-ahead-green-initiative/

Here is a previous report on the case, replete with several ill-informed comments speculating why the ticket was/wasn't valid.

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/ne...2_000_in_FCC_season_ticket_overcharging_case/

 

[LexyBoy]

There is no error here, it's standard zonal routeing rules.

Do you have a link detailing the application of the Routeing Guide to zonal fares? I know of guidance for BZ fares but haven't seen firm evidence that outboundary Travelcards are treated identically.

 

[RJ]

In what way has the loophole been closed? Answers on a postcard please.

 

[furlong]

Judge Matthews ruled FCC had acted with “unfair misconduct” because they had failed to accept liability in initial proceedings despite appearing to know the ticket was valid.

Has FCC issued its response to this yet?

For example, have the staff concerned been suspended from duty while the company instigates an independent review to determine whether there has been "unfair misconduct" on any other occasions?

 

[Harlesden]

According to this:

http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/10709880.Train_ticket_overpricing_loop_hole_closed__says_FCC/

it's already closed.

More lies/FUD.

Badly written article
QUOTE 1 "successfully sued the train for £2,193.96" (how can you sue a train?)
QUOTE 2 "The Association of Train Operating Companies has now closed." (probably not such a bad thing if it was true)

 

[Nick W]

During initial proceedings with FCC, the train bosses refused to accept liability and insisted the Watford North ticket was invalid because Mr Myers was travelling from St Albans.

However findings by Mr Myers, which were read out in court, using the Data Protection Act showed emails back and forth from FCC staff in correspondence with Association of Train Operating Companies, which show FCC accepting the Watford North season ticket was in fact valid.

Any idea if criminal prosecutions could be brought for such behaviour?

 

[RJ]

Condition 58 of the NRCoC states that no staff or agents have the right to waive any of the Conditions, which includes Condition 13. Any member of staff who gets it wrong with a ticket check therefore leaves themselves and their employers open to being sued for a breach of contract if the victim incurs damages, as appears to have happened in this case.

Not sure whether or not it's a criminal offence however.

 

[trevmonk]

Some months ago I contacted London Midland, FCC and National Rail Enquiries and posed the following question:

I live midway between St Albans Abbey and St Albans City stations . If buy a Travelcard from St Albans Abbey (London Midland) to London can I travel back via Thameslink services to St Albans City (FCC), which is shown as a permissible route on the National Rail Enquiries journey planner?

London Midland said "Yes", although advised checking with onboard train staff.

National Rail Enquiries said "No", contradicting their own journey planner.

FCC, in their typically inept fashion, misunderstood the question and simply said "Travelcards aren't valid beyond Elstree".

 

[bb21]

There is no consensus on this issue on this forum. Some senior forum members believe that you cannot start your journey with a walk to a different station than that stated on your ticket, while others hold a different opinion.

If you want to employ the argument about NRE showing it as a permitted route, then the usual health warnings apply.

Nevertheless if you buy a Travelcard from Park Street, then you would be valid either way.

 

[455driver]

There is no consensus on this issue on this forum. Some senior forum members believe that you cannot start your journey with a walk to a different station than that stated on your ticket, while others hold a different opinion.

I have just looked at North camp to Guildford and it gives me the 0957 at £4.40.
When I put in via Woking it gives me NCM 0923, walk to Ash Vale 0939 and on to Woking for the same £4.40 so that says you can start with a walk, I am not sure if the stations are grouped for ticketing purposes.

Please note I apologise for sticking up for the passenger, normal service will resume shortly!

 

[CyrusWuff]

In what way has the loophole been closed? Answers on a postcard please.

Probably the same way c2c have tried to resolve the Gravesend-Tilbury Ferry one, namely implementing a negative easement in the "secret" routeing guide data.

 

[trevmonk]

In what way has the loophole been closed? Answers on a postcard please.

You can still select a Watford North - Zone 1-6 via St Albans City season on FCCs own ticketing site. However when you highlight the £3200 travelcard fare all the outward and return trains in the boxes below are shown as unavailable.

If you select a Watford North to Elstree season (also via St Albans City) it lets you travel on any train to Elstree and also offers the option of adding a Zone 1 to 6 Travelcard. Would this be valid on a non-stop train from St Albans City to St Pancras?

 

[Wolfie]

Quote:
"During initial proceedings with FCC, the train bosses refused to accept liability and insisted the Watford North ticket was invalid because Mr Myers was travelling from St Albans.

However findings by Mr Myers, which were read out in court, using the Data Protection Act showed emails back and forth from FCC staff in correspondence with Association of Train Operating Companies, which show FCC accepting the Watford North season ticket was in fact valid."



Having, throgh my day job, more experience of engagement with the Courts than I care to think about (up to and including the Supreme Court), that is FCC well and truly in the mire if the reporting is accurate. Violation of Court Disclosure rules (the CPRs in civil cases) and lying to a Court tends to be VERY badly received (to the extent that contempt of court could mean jail time for someone!)........

 

[Searle]

Some months ago I contacted London Midland, FCC and National Rail Enquiries and posed the following question:

I live midway between St Albans Abbey and St Albans City stations . If buy a Travelcard from St Albans Abbey (London Midland) to London can I travel back via Thameslink services to St Albans City (FCC), which is shown as a permissible route on the National Rail Enquiries journey planner?

London Midland said "Yes", although advised checking with onboard train staff.

National Rail Enquiries said "No", contradicting their own journey planner.

FCC, in their typically inept fashion, misunderstood the question and simply said "Travelcards aren't valid beyond Elstree".

I'm laughing so hard at FCC's response, I expected nothing more from them!

 

[Yew]

to the extent that contempt of court could mean jail time for someone!.

Dont tempt us, many on this forum would love to see the FCC prosecution manager behind bars

 

[cmovcc]

oh I hadn't realised he had sued FCC for not providing the cheapest ticket.

so I could can sue FCC for the fact that every ticket I've bought from Cambridge->London for the past 6 years (statute of limitations) hasn't been the cheapest possible (good old map WA)?

as could every commuter that's bought a season ticket?

I can imagine they're now literally ****ting themselves; time to talk to the Cambridge papers and see FCC go broke?

 

[VauxhallandI]

There is no consensus on this issue on this forum. Some senior forum members believe that you cannot start your journey with a walk to a different station than that stated on your ticket, while others hold a different opinion.

If you want to employ the argument about NRE showing it as a permitted route, then the usual health warnings apply.

Nevertheless if you buy a Travelcard from Park Street, then you would be valid either way.

This worries me in conjunction to the ticket I have bought and discussed here

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1541130#post1541130

I often walk to Cheshunt and start my journey there.