Court Summons - Not being able to produce a valid ticket

[scotsman]

Is this a devolved matter?

Yes, transport is a devolved matter - albeit the RORA and the railway byelaws operate across both English and Scots law

 

[yorkie]

I believe the OP has paid the cost of an Anytime Single (SOS) at £79, plus £100 costs*. When you look at it like that, and consider that it appears to have taken the OP several months to act, perhaps it is not so unreasonable. The costs of £100 could have been avoided if the OP had not left it so long to respond.

Anyone outraged by this is advised to contact their MP (or follow Scotsman's advice) to get the law changed as that will be the only way to make a difference (not by contacting XC!), and anyone in this sort of situation in future is advised to seek assistance immediately and not leave it!

* Post #71 said £105+£79 was being considered, Post #74 said a total of £179 was the final amount. The cost of an Anytime Single for the journey made is £79.

 

[snail]

£180 shelled out after being told it was okay to collect your tickets later on. That is surely outrageous and unfair?

Possibly so. But do you really think no one has looked into the facts of the case before deciding to prosecute?

I'm with DaveNewcastle and Yorkie on this one, the OP should be grateful he has been given the chance to settle out of court and mark it down to experience. If anyone (including you) thinks there are lessons to be learned then they should take them up more generally, not risk an 'innocent' person being prosecuted.
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I believe the OP has paid the cost of an Anytime Single (SOS) at £79, plus £100 costs

Actually, that does raise one point the OP could possibly question. If he has been charged for the 'ticketless' journey, is he entitled to a refund on his original ticket?

 

[All Line Rover]

Actually, that does raise one point the OP could possibly question. If he has been charged for the 'ticketless' journey, is he entitled to a refund on his original ticket?

Well, no, because he had an Advance ticket. (Although he didn't say what type of ticket he was going to collect in the original post, it seems sensible to conclude that it was an Advance ticket. Why else would he be so reluctant to purchase a new ticket on-board the train? If he had an Off-Peak or Anytime ticket, he could have collected it upon arrival at his destination station and - since it would be still valid - apply for a refund minus a £10 administration fee).

I too agree with DaveNewcastle and Yorkie - the OP should be grateful that the case didn't end up being any worse! I also agree with AlterEgo that it would be stupid to complain to the Customer Relations department. What does jonmorris0844 expect them to do? Say: "Oh, yeah, well, you were treated a bit harshly IMHO. So here is £100 of RTV's!" :roll: No offense jonmorris0844 but it does seems a bit silly.

 

[LondonJohn]

It does seem harsh on the OP though there are several things he had done wrong here. I would have almost liked to take my chances in court and call the first Train Manager as a witness as to why he said that it was OK to collect the ticket later.

One reason why I always pick up my ticket from a machine as soon as its purchased then guard it with my life of course until its used.

 

[All Line Rover]

One reason why I always pick up my ticket from a machine as soon as its purchased then guard it with my life of course until its used.

Yes, and to be quite honest, I don't see why anything needs to be changed because of this incident. It is recommendable to collect tickets (particularly Advance tickets) before the date of travel so as to avoid any last minute problems.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Yes, and to be quite honest, I don't see why anything needs to be changed because of this incident.

Nothing? What about the training of staff?
For a TM to tell someone they will be fine, only for that to be totally contradicted by another TM, and then the person actually fined for it, certainly does suggest something is wrong.
I realise you have the issues of "the guy over there told me" and people lying about it, but surely the first TM speaking to the second TM (or some way of making notes about passengers tickets to pass onto the 2nd TM) would avoid that issue?

It is recommendable to collect tickets (particularly Advance tickets) before the date of travel so as to avoid any last minute problems.

Of course, but I am sure you also realise that doing so is not at all realistic or even possible for many people. Indeed, one reason why some people use the internet to buy tickets is that getting to the nearest station is a pain in the backside and not worth it unless travelling at that time.

It does seem harsh on the OP though there are several things he had done wrong here. I would have almost liked to take my chances in court and call the first Train Manager as a witness as to why he said that it was OK to collect the ticket later.

The problem there is that you are risking a criminal record, which for some people (because of their line of work or whatever) would be a total disaster.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Nothing? What about the training of staff?
For a TM to tell someone they will be fine, only for that to be totally contradicted by another TM, and then the person actually fined for it, certainly does suggest something is wrong.

Would that really have changed anything here? If everything had been done by the book, all it would have meant would be that the first TM would have asked the OP for the £79 (the normal anytime fare for the journey from BRI-SHF, not a fine!) rather than the second one. Going by what he has said (sorry this is a bit harsh), he still would have refused to pay it and still would have ended up in a simliar situation of being prosecuted by CrossCountry.

I guess though he might have realised he was on shakier ground and just paid up the £79 immediately without letting it get to the stage where there were £100 of costs too. I suppose what happened with the first TM gave him false hope that he had a leg to stand on. But I don't think that is good enough grounds to be calling for all guards to do things by the book and never be lenient (which is likely the effective result of calling for consistent behaviour by staff).

 

[LondonJohn]

The problem there is that you are risking a criminal record, which for some people (because of their line of work or whatever) would be a total disaster.

True but that effectively gives the TOC carte blanche to walk right over the consumer.

We are not talking about a (serial) fare evader here. He purchased the ticket and for one reason or another he didn't have that piece of orange card that said he had paid. Its not like someone else could have been using the ticket because they would have to occupy the same seat.

I was always led to believe that if an employee or agent of a company made a fact/representation they were liable for those actions/omissions.

I can't think of an equivilant example but if you relied on information from a person in authority in a company that you were transacting business in and that subsequently turned out to be incorrect and you lost out financially as a result of that you will presumably be quite miffed.

The OP however didn't help himself by leaving it so long. I would however have gone to the media or my MP. This is another one of those situations where we need a reusable smart card for tickets to be loaded on then you have no lost mobile phones, no lost wallets, no uncollected tickets to get stitched up over when you have paid a fare for what is often a substandard service.

 

[jon0844]

In January, I'll no longer have an annual season ticket - or a bus season to get me to/from the station 'free'.

The advice to make sure you collect your ticket in advance would mean I'd have to pay £1.40 to get a bus to the station to collect my tickets, and then pay more to get back.

Why wouldn't most people simply expect to collect their ticket immediately before travel? What if there was another problem - like the machine didn't work and there was a large queue? Should people be told to arrive at least an hour before travel?

What if you got to the station, there was a power cut and you were told to travel and sort things out on the train - and THEN you got prosecuted for not showing a valid ticket? You explain about the permission given at the station, and the circumstances, but the member of staff doesn't care as it's an absolute offence; you have not produced a valid ticket.

There have been power cuts at stations along my line in recent years, so it's not a totally ridiculous scenario. However, I know that nearly everyone would say 'But in those circumstances, they would use discretion' which is the whole point; the first person allegedly did, which was then overridden by someone else. It's pretty obvious that the second TM was of the opinion that the OP was lying.

Anyway, I must apologise for arguing earlier on - but this thread made me somewhat angry, but I will accept the OP did himself no favours by doing nothing when there was a chance to register a complaint/disappointment and perhaps allow the TOC to do some investigating, or just give him the benefit of the doubt as a goodwill gesture (one off; by giving advice on what to do the next time such a situation occurred).

I do wish someone would ask the TOC what they think should happen if there are two different members of staff that give conflicting information to the detriment of the passenger.

 

[bnm]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this case, we probably have one person, the OP, who is seriously considering ever travelling by train again.

 

[district]

Even though the case is legally resolved, morally there are still substantial issues with the training of staff and the perception of the customer.

I really think you should write to Andy Cooper, Chief Exec of XC and consider writing to your MP.

Fine, you were in the wrong. But it does not excuse the way you have been treated and you should get some justice and reassurance. I'm sure most people would agree with me on that.

 

[Yew]

This probably wouldnt help the OP, But could an avantix be programmed so you can collect tickets from it? and then the guard puts the number in, and a ticket pops out?

 

[AlterEgo]

Writing to an MP is by far the most sensible option - I'm not sure what XC can really say to someone they've accused of a criminal offence, and received an out-of-court settlement from.

Yorkie and others will tell you that contacting the relevant authorities (such as MPs) will yield the best results long-term. Most of us are in agreement that the system doesn't exactly serve it's purpose, and that it is all too easy for Joe Public to fall foul of Victorian laws which do not sit well in 2011.

 

[Paul Kelly]

This probably wouldnt help the OP, But could an avantix be programmed so you can collect tickets from it? and then the guard puts the number in, and a ticket pops out?

Very very nice idea. It would have to be for emergency use only, perhaps subject to a £10 charge or something to make it clear it was a last resort.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can I suggest that if someone wants a test case for the law to be changed, then maybe a member of this forum should try submitting a petition to the Scottish Parliament's Public Petitions Committee - they are obliged to read and examine the merits of each and every petition submitted to them, regardless of the number of signatures (1 is acceptable). A number of laws have come into being as a result of this committee.

That's interesting - I assume (naturally) that the submitted of said petition should reside in Scotland?

 

[Yew]

This probably wouldnt help the OP, But could an avantix be programmed so you can collect tickets from it? and then the guard puts the number in, and a ticket pops out?

Very very nice idea. It would have to be for emergency use only, perhaps subject to a £10 charge or something to make it clear it was a last resort.

Why add a charge? It getting mor usage out of existing infrastructure, and it means that people who are travelling from a station with no facilities can just get it sorted on the train and wouldn't take any longer than an excess.
[RANT]
I'm starting more and more to think that the railways prefer to make their money from expensive prosecutions where they are insured by the taxpayer and taking advantage of our contradictory And confusing legal system. Than by carrying passengers and providing services [RANT]

 

[Paul Kelly]

My thinking was that it would add extra work for staff. Passengers would be pestering gateline staff to let them through so that they could pick up their ticket from the guard, and it would use up more of the guard's time. Also his/her machine would run out of blank ticket stock much more quickly, given the huge amount of coupons that are often issued for advance bookings. If people know they can pick up their tickets on board with no penalty, there wouldn't be much incentive to use the machines at the station and everything would get slowed down.

I hadn't considered the situation of boarding from an unmanned station though. That opens up a whole new perspective on it.

 

[island]

This probably wouldnt help the OP, But could an avantix be programmed so you can collect tickets from it? and then the guard puts the number in, and a ticket pops out?

Avantix machines are not connected to any network.

 

[Paul Kelly]

How does the journey planning on them work then? I thought a guard was able to check if another train was running late and whether passengers were going to make connections or not? Or is that a different system they use for that?

 

[ainsworth74]

How does the journey planning on them work then? I thought a guard was able to check if another train was running late and whether passengers were going to make connections or not? Or is that a different system they use for that?

They have a timetable in them which they can use to advise passengers on alternative connections if the service the guard is on is late. But I don't believe guards have any access to live running information (unless they've got a smartphone).

 

[Paul Kelly]

Ah OK that's very interesting. Is this where Genius Mobile comes in then perhaps (East Coast Genius Mobile user guide here)? Maybe Genius Mobile could contact the booking database and send the required information to Avantix Mobile by Bluetooth?!!! Too much work I suppose.

 

[scotsman]

That's interesting - I assume (naturally) that the submitted of said petition should reside in Scotland?

Yes, due to a few conflicts of interest I suggest that I should not be the person to submit it

 

[Wolfie]

The TOC's position is that the OP never asked a member of their staff, and therefore had no authority to travel. The OP can't prove his assertion that he was allowed to travel.

The TOC will simply say something along the lines of 'I refer you to correspondence between yourself and our Prosecution Team which outline the company's position on the matter. I note you decided to settle the matter out of court. Thank you for taking the time....etc'.

Their customer relations team won't revise the company's position.

Because I am increasingly fed up of big company's using the little people as toilets (work out what I mean - try defecating on them!) I would respond in kind if they took such a stance.

It is amazing just how much senior executive time, and thus cost, you can put such a company to if you get MPs, the media, etc involved.

Make no mistake it would cost them a whole lot more than the £189 they made.......

 

[sheff1]

What if you got to the station, there was a power cut and you were told to travel and sort things out on the train - and THEN you got prosecuted for not showing a valid ticket? You explain about the permission given at the station, and the circumstances, but the member of staff doesn't care as it's an absolute offence; you have not produced a valid ticket.

Yes, this is exactly what could happen.

Earlier this year I was travelling from Sheffield to Rosslare. Arriving at the station all ticket machines (and the booking office) were cordoned off as a broken pipe had caused a flood. People with tickets to collect were advised to collect them at their destination (would have been interesting to try at Rosslare !). In my case I had plenty of time at Cheltenham and so collected the ticket there.

Now, the XC guard to Cheltenham was fully aware of the situation but, should I have not had time there, the guard onwards to Cardiff 3 hours after leaving Sheffield might not be aware and, apparently, I would have 'committed an absolute offence'. Things could have been more fraught if the connection had been via Bristol Parkway, where I would have been unable to exit the barrier to collect the ticket, and the onwards train would have been FGW.

 

[MikeWh]

You *might* have some trouble whilst travelling in the situation above, especially if your journey takes you some way away from the source of the problem. However, I would be gobsmacked if it actually got anywhere near the prosecution department, or certainly a court. Even the most vexatious prosecution manager wouldn't dare proceed with something that is going to fall over within 5 minutes at court.

 

[sheff1]

You *might* have some trouble whilst travelling in the situation above, especially if your journey takes you some way away from the source of the problem. However, I would be gobsmacked if it actually got anywhere near the prosecution department, or certainly a court. Even the most vexatious prosecution manager wouldn't dare proceed with something that is going to fall over within 5 minutes at court.

One would hope so, but there are many reference here and elsewhere to 'committing an absolute offence' so I wouldn't be 100% sure.

 

[MikeWh]

One would hope so, but there are many reference here and elsewhere to 'committing an absolute offence' so I wouldn't be 100% sure.

I'm sorry, but you're being ridiculous. You are not committing an offence if following the instructions of a member of staff either in person or on a notice. When the TOC concerned confirms that the story is genuine it WILL get dropped.

 

[bb21]

Something as major as ticket machine failure will be recorded by the station I believe, which means that no one can deny it. This is quite different to the situation where a passenger follows the instruction by a member of staff and then the member of staff turns around and denies it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes, I've seen many passengers travelling "on the wrong train" or "with the wrong TOC" for valid reasons and there's never been any difficulty in the Guard / TM accepting the reason. There's a woman just a few seats from me now travelling London - Glasgow on a Virgin WCML ticket but on an EC train, and her reason was accepted without a blink.

Without wanting to open the whole can of worms about the OP's situation, we must remember that there may have been a significant lack of clear understanding between the passenger and the 2 TMs, but what was missing in his journey was any evidence at all. No evidence of 'lying', no evidence of any 'assurance', no evidence of a fault with the ticket issuing facilities, in fact no way for us on here, to prefer one version of events to another (other than the simple temptation to believe the person who makes the first post).

My reason for bringing all that up again is to remind us that Train Companies have rather effective means of checking for faults and delays and for authorising travel without a ticket. When these are not used or more to the point, show no reason for permitting ticketless travel, then perhaps, just perhaps, it is the passenger who has made the mistake (such as in being told 'okay mate, don't worry, you can just ask the guard on the next train to sell you a ticket' but hearing 'I don't mind if you don't have a ticket this once, so the guard on the next train won't either, just this once'). We'll never know in that case, but what we do know is that hundreds of passengers with legitimate excuses are conveyed without problem on a daily basis and that hundreds of 'faults' and 'delays' are correctly identified when systems are interrogated..