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Well, I am going to dare to suggest that thinking about some non-intrusive precautions might be sensible when there is a wave in progress. "We have to live with it just like with flu" is OK up to a point, but flu doesn't cause long term problems and doesn't cause waves of hospital admissions in the height of summer. So, for example, if I go to the doctor's surgery or a hospital or a care home and they ask me to wear a mask, I will because it doesn't worry me in the slightest. And good ventilation is common sense anyway and works for flu and colds as well. I will no doubt be called a "maskivist" or some such ridiculous term by those on this thread, but that worries me even less.
Well, I am going to dare to suggest that thinking about some non-intrusive precautions might be sensible when there is a wave in progress. "We have to live with it just like with flu" is OK up to a point, but flu doesn't cause long term problems and doesn't cause waves of hospital admissions in the height of summer. So, for example, if I go to the doctor's surgery or a hospital or a care home and they ask me to wear a mask, I will because it doesn't worry me in the slightest. And good ventilation is common sense anyway and works for flu and colds as well. I will no doubt be called a "maskivist" or some such ridiculous term by those on this thread, but that worries me even less.
The face nappies may not worry you, but they do cause issues for some people. And they don't work against viruses, so why cause problems for some people (and generally create a hostile atmosphere) just to be 'seen do be doing something', even when that something has no effect?
Well, I am going to dare to suggest that thinking about some non-intrusive precautions might be sensible when there is a wave in progress. "We have to live with it just like with flu" is OK up to a point, but flu doesn't cause long term problems and doesn't cause waves of hospital admissions in the height of summer. So, for example, if I go to the doctor's surgery or a hospital or a care home and they ask me to wear a mask, I will because it doesn't worry me in the slightest. And good ventilation is common sense anyway and works for flu and colds as well. I will no doubt be called a "maskivist" or some such ridiculous term by those on this thread, but that worries me even less.
That's not true; the vast majority of cases of either virus are asymptomatic or mild but 'flu can cause long term problems and it's false to claim it doesn't.
This is a bogus argument; a new strain of 'flu would absolutely cause a huge amount of hospital admissions. But is Sars-CoV-2 causing a lot of hospital admissions? Or are you confusing hospitalisations that are incidental with hospitalisations for Sars-CoV-2?
So, for example, if I go to the doctor's surgery or a hospital or a care home and they ask me to wear a mask, I will because it doesn't worry me in the slightest.
That's your choice; others may take a different choice.
Note that if you wear a flimsy, loose fitting mask, it won't actually have any effect; you'd need to wear an FFP2/3 mask to actually achieve anything. Be sure to wear/handle/store them correctly and replace them regularly.
at the end of the day, the virus will continue to circulate at high levels until everyone has a high level of immunity; look up endemic equilibrium models for more information.
Denis Kinan sounds like an attention seeker who is best ignored. Their company, Cignpost Diagnostics Ltd, benefits from people being afraid of the virus by selling tests that they do not
Their company also actively misrepresented travel restrictions to sell tests.
They had a large sign up in their test centre in Victoria Square, Belfast last December promoting antigen tests - advising people that proof of a negative antigen test was now required to enter the Republic of Ireland from the UK even if fully vaccinated - which was true, apart from the fact that it specifically didn't apply to entry from the part of the UK that the test centre in question was located in.
at the end of the day, the virus will continue to circulate at high levels until everyone has a high level of immunity; look up endemic equilibrium models for more information.
I tried that with Google. The only hits were a single 2019 (pre-covid) paper on zoonosis. Searching for endemic equilibrium led to a collection of technical papers.
I agree that a state of equilibrium is being approached. But it is not being described in those terms.
I'm glad I've literally never had a flu like that!
Worst I ever had was that nasty 1999 one when I was in bed for about three days (Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and Boxing Day) with fever and vomiting. Nasty. The felt tired for about 2 days but was over it in a week.
I certainly hope I don't get a two-week flu anytime soon but maybe I've just been lucky.
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I agree Tedros and Michie are attention seekers, though it depends what he means by the pandemic being over. If he means Covid being eradicated then it will never be over in that respect as it will always be with us.
When it is no longer dangerous to the vast majority of the population? (already the case)
When it is no longer dangerous to anyone? (doubtful that will ever be the case; flu still kills).
When it no longer spreads at a certain rate, irrespective of seriousness?
I'm glad I've literally never had a flu like that!
Worst I ever had was that nasty 1999 one when I was in bed for about three days (Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and Boxing Day) with fever and vomiting. Nasty. The felt tired for about 2 days but was over it in a week.
I certainly hope I don't get a two-week flu anytime soon but maybe I've just been lucky.
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In the sense that it hasn't really been dangerous since about mid-2021, could it be argued it was over around a year ago?
As flu is still about and still kills, could it be still argued on similar terms that we are still in the 1918 pandemic?
Though it is well documented that there was a nasty flu in 1999 and it's a little strange that the worst viral illness of my adult life by a long way occurred that year.
Perhaps as a fit 20-something I was able to fight it better than average. Amazingly no-one I was staying with that Christmas caught the thing, though I have heard (not sure if correct) that flu is most contagious in the period before the worst symptoms.
I also had something in early 2019 which felt worse than an average cold, which I also put down to be a flu. That one persisted for about 3 days, came down with it on the Tuesday, was somewhat better on the Friday and over it by the Saturday.
Anyway I sincerely hope I don't get a 2-week flu any time soon!!!
Well, I am going to dare to suggest that thinking about some non-intrusive precautions might be sensible when there is a wave in progress. "We have to live with it just like with flu" is OK up to a point, but flu doesn't cause long term problems and doesn't cause waves of hospital admissions in the height of summer. So, for example, if I go to the doctor's surgery or a hospital or a care home and they ask me to wear a mask, I will because it doesn't worry me in the slightest. And good ventilation is common sense anyway and works for flu and colds as well. I will no doubt be called a "maskivist" or some such ridiculous term by those on this thread, but that worries me even less.
I mean this in good faith, but it’s really time to move on. Covid isn’t causing long term problems in all but a few outlying cases, and certainly isn’t causing any kind of wave of hospital admissions. The pandemic as a public health issue is over.
Clearly some people don’t want this to be case, and the media will no doubt continue with the clickbait headlines, and some “experts” will try to plant seeds of doubt in our minds, but I suggest you ignore them like I do. It really is over at this point and we should be free to get on with our lives absent any Covid “theatre” or petty intrusions.
I mean this in good faith, but it’s really time to move on. Covid isn’t causing long term problems in all but a few outlying cases, and certainly isn’t causing any kind of wave of hospital admissions. The pandemic as a public health issue is over.
Clearly some people don’t want this to be case, and the media will no doubt continue with the clickbait headlines, and some “experts” will try to plant seeds of doubt in our minds, but I suggest you ignore them like I do. It really is over at this point and we should be free to get on with our lives absent any Covid “theatre” or petty intrusions.
I am answering this in good faith, too. We have clearly moved on a long way and the vast majority of people want to carry on with their normal lives and are doing so. You can see that every day, everywhere you go. And as far as I am concerned that's very good. However I don't think saying "it really is over" and trying to undermine any suggestion that any precautions at all will be needed again, ever, is very sensible. "Living with Covid" so that we can carry on with our normal lines is not going to be passive. Taking up the offer of a booster dose of vaccine requires action, based on understanding that the current much lower rates of fatality have a lot to do with high rates of vaccine uptake. And if real experts on epidemiology and public health (not wishing to be rude to people on this thread) suggest that other precautions like mask wearing are advisable in specific circumstances, we should listen. It's all part of the same picture - if you keep saying "it really is over" and "it was all a waste of time anyway" which is another strong theme on this thread, you are undermining efforts to keep the fatality rate down through vaccination, which really is important and really does save lives, whatever you think about masks and ventilation.
I am answering this in good faith, too. We have clearly moved on a long way and the vast majority of people want to carry on with their normal lives and are doing so. You can see that every day, everywhere you go. And as far as I am concerned that's very good. However I don't think saying "it really is over" and trying to undermine any suggestion that any precautions at all will be needed again, ever, is very sensible. "Living with Covid" so that we can carry on with our normal lines is not going to be passive.
Yes it is sensible and it is positive. The whole point of vaccines is to enable normal life to resume. If anyone does not want to participate in that, that is their prerogative.
Taking up the offer of a booster dose of vaccine requires action, based on understanding that the current much lower rates of fatality have a lot to do with high rates of vaccine uptake. And if real experts on epidemiology and public health (not wishing to be rude to people on this thread) suggest that other precautions like mask wearing are advisable in specific circumstances, we should listen.
"Real" experts, eh? How do you define a "real" expert? Experts are divided in their opinions on precautions, but why do we need them now that we have a high level of population immunity? We cannot prevent infections, only delay them.
It's all part of the same picture - if you keep saying "it really is over" and "it was all a waste of time anyway" which is another strong theme on this thread, you are undermining efforts to keep the fatality rate down through vaccination, which really is important and really does save lives, whatever you think about masks and ventilation.
On the contrary; those who distrust vaccines so much that they wish to enforce measures such as mask wearing, are hardly giving confidence regarding the effectiveness of vaccines!
The vast majority of people see vaccines as the way to get us back to normal; we got vaccinated and now we are leading normal lives. That is the right approach in my opinion and it is the approach adopted by the vast majority.
Those who distrust vaccines to the extent they refuse to take them are a small minority and those who are happy to get vaccines but distrust their effectiveness and therefore wear masks are also a small minority.
Yes it is sensible and it is positive. The whole point of vaccines is to enable normal life to resume. If anyone does not want to participate in that, that is their prerogative.
"Real" experts, eh? How do you define a "real" expert? Experts are divided in their opinions on precautions, but why do we need them now that we have a high level of population immunity? We cannot prevent infections, only delay them.
On the contrary; those who distrust vaccines so much that they wish to enforce measures such as mask wearing, are hardly giving confidence regarding the effectiveness of vaccines!
The vast majority of people see vaccines as the way to get us back to normal; we got vaccinated and now we are leading normal lives. That is the right approach in my opinion and it is the approach adopted by the vast majority.
Those who distrust vaccines to the extent they refuse to take them are a small minority and those who are happy to get vaccines but distrust their effectiveness and therefore wear masks are also a small minority.
One thing I do wonder about though is the need for boosters every six months. What do people (@yorkie and others) think about the need for regular boosters, as some people suggest? I have to admit I'm a little sceptical (as no other pandemic, including the big 1918 one, necessitated such a response) but I don't know.
I would imagine the answer is: if you are in a vulnerable group, regular boosters are a good idea, if not, they probably aren't necessary - but I don't know.
I am answering this in good faith, too. We have clearly moved on a long way and the vast majority of people want to carry on with their normal lives and are doing so. You can see that every day, everywhere you go. And as far as I am concerned that's very good. However I don't think saying "it really is over" and trying to undermine any suggestion that any precautions at all will be needed again, ever, is very sensible. "Living with Covid" so that we can carry on with our normal lines is not going to be passive. Taking up the offer of a booster dose of vaccine requires action, based on understanding that the current much lower rates of fatality have a lot to do with high rates of vaccine uptake. And if real experts on epidemiology and public health (not wishing to be rude to people on this thread) suggest that other precautions like mask wearing are advisable in specific circumstances, we should listen. It's all part of the same picture - if you keep saying "it really is over" and "it was all a waste of time anyway" which is another strong theme on this thread, you are undermining efforts to keep the fatality rate down through vaccination, which really is important and really does save lives, whatever you think about masks and ventilation.
To be fair I’m not “trying to undermine any suggestion that any precautions at all will be needed again” as something could, theoretically at least, change. This is extremely unlikely however, and in the here and now it’s perfectly safe to just carry on as normal.
In regard to experts, there are varying opinions when it comes to the effectiveness of different NPIs, but we’re generally presented with a single point of view i.e. masks work. This has led to the dogmatic belief in masks that we now see (from some people anyway). Think about it, there’s no real world evidence to support the efficacy of masks in a community setting, and people are literally relying on masks that have wording to the effect of “does not protect against viruses” on the packaging. You must see why many of us are sceptical (to put it mildly!).
Personally I think the vaccines have done the required “heavy lifting” at this point and outwith the more vulnerable groups there should be no pressure to get another booster. (I’ll apply the same caveat in regard to an unforeseen and extremely unlikely change in circumstances).
I know it isn't England, but they're trying their best here to bring it back in N. Ireland.
'A Belfast virologist is predicting a new Covid-19 variant and wave this autumn.'
Looking ahead to winter, Dr Bamford said the goal will be to minimise the amount of severe disease and deaths due to Covid, as well as the impact of infection on staff absences.
"I would like to see the continuation of the availability free antigen/lateral flow devices and high-quality masks to the public to reduce levels of infection," Dr Bamford added.
What do people (@yorkie and others) think about the need for regular boosters, as some people suggest? I have to admit I'm a little sceptical (as no other pandemic, including the big 1918 one, necessitated such a response) but I don't know.
Just on the subject of boosters surely the right answer is to treat it the same as the flu vaccine? Looking at the NHS website it's offered for free to the following: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/flu-influenza-vaccine/ That seems a fairly sensible group of people to have...
www.railforums.co.uk
In the short, and possibly medium term, making boosters for vulnerable people is probably a good idea. Boosting healthy people much less so. And we can't do this indefinitely.
If a more effective/efficient vaccine becomes available in future, that may change the balance.
Everyone is going to be exposed to Sars-CoV-2 multiple times and for the vast majority of people this acts as a booster.
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And now for an update on the Zoe data, estimating infections across the UK.
The ZOE COVID Study was launched in March 2020 and is the world’s largest ongoing study of COVID-19. Learn about symptoms, vaccines, immunity, and more.
The ZOE COVID Study was launched in March 2020 and is the world’s largest ongoing study of COVID-19. Learn about symptoms, vaccines, immunity, and more.
Those on the hard-left who wanted to mandate masks became increasingly desperate as we reached the peak, as they wanted masks to be credited with the impending fall in infections.
But now it's becoming clear that infections are falling, the opportunity the attention seeking pro-mask lobbyists spotted for masks to gain the credit is rapidly fading away.
They will start to turn their attention to mandating masks in the Winter but these pathetic demands should be ignored, and once we get to next Spring, the media will hopefully realise that no-one is interested in listening to the attention seekers.
lol… a new variant/wave… give over… if I had a crystal ball, I see no mention of other cold and flu variants being mentioned for then.. I guess non existent once more!
Rather than focusing on COVID shouldn’t he be more concerned by other health matters or as I state above… everything else not to non existent?
Yes it is sensible and it is positive. The whole point of vaccines is to enable normal life to resume. If anyone does not want to participate in that, that is their prerogative.
"Real" experts, eh? How do you define a "real" expert? Experts are divided in their opinions on precautions, but why do we need them now that we have a high level of population immunity? We cannot prevent infections, only delay them.
Well, I would start with someone with relevant qualifications and who has published peer reviewed research. And if the experts appear to disagree I would ask someone who understands the subject area why that is. I recommend listening to the BBC “More or Less“ podcasts for case studies in debunking some of the headlines based on misinterpretation of research reports. And in flogging the “why do we need experts“ line you sound just like Michael Gove. Vaccines do prevent some infections and even when they don’t they substantially reduce the rate of serious symptoms and ultimately death.
One thing I do wonder about though is the need for boosters every six months. What do people (@yorkie and others) think about the need for regular boosters, as some people suggest? I would imagine the answer is: if you are in a vulnerable group, regular boosters are a good idea, if not, they probably aren't necessary - but I don't know.
I think you should follow the advice of people who do know what they are talking about - i.e. the HSA and NHS. As and when you are offered a booster, go for it.
You're right, the conclusion I've come to is I'm not having any boosters as don't need them because I've looked at the risk and decided I don't need it and it's a waste of NHS resources for me to have one. Exactly why I don't have the flu jab.
Think majority of people are intelligent enough to weigh up pros and cons and don't need nanny state carrying on telling us this nasty virus is still out to get us if we don't have umpteen boosters.
The pandemic death toll has just passed 200,000 in the UK. Scientists reach for answers but it’s a messy, slow process
www.theguardian.com
...A common misunderstanding is that “the science” is a set of absolute, immutable, indisputable and verifiable facts. Rather, science is a messy process eventually converging towards the truth in a process of trial and error...
I recommend listening to the BBC “More or Less“ podcasts for case studies in debunking some of the headlines based on misinterpretation of research reports.
If you would like to refer to any external source please provide a link and quote (if a quote is not possible/relevant then an extract from the relevant part of the transcript would be fine)
Vaccines do prevent some infections and even when they don’t they substantially reduce the rate of serious symptoms and ultimately death.
I think you should follow the advice of people who do know what they are talking about - i.e. the HSA and NHS. As and when you are offered a booster, go for it.
Exactly; the vaccines are highly effective and we should start trusting them!
I had three doses of Sars-CoV-2 vaccine and I don't think I am going to be offered any sort of additional booster anytime soon. Why would I need one when I clearly have excellent immunity.
You're right, the conclusion I've come to is I'm not having any boosters as don't need them because I've looked at the risk and decided I don't need it and it's a waste of NHS resources for me to have one. Exactly why I don't have the flu jab.
Think majority of people are intelligent enough to weigh up pros and cons and don't need nanny state carrying on telling us this nasty virus is still out to get us if we don't have umpteen boosters.
Interestingly I think I will be offered the upcoming autumn booster as I work in health and social care (although not 'frontline' but as with previous vaccines they seemed to quickly just extend the criteria to any staff)
Personally I won't be having it as I'm mid 30s, and have been perfectly healthy over the past couple of years excluding a dodgy few days in December last year which I thought might have been Covid but the tests said otherwise (obviously not a guarantee of course), I just stayed in bed to recover as with any other illness
I have just had a bout of COVID, but tested negative for the first time in 5 days this morning.
So it's off to the pub tonight for a few cold beers.
It felt no worse than an average summer cold, with a sore throat, bunged up sinuses and feeling a little lethargic.
So whilst the WHO is correct to say that SOME people are getting ill and dying from COVID, that message on the Facebook feed implies that, or is meant to frighten people into believing that, the MAJORITY of people who get COVID are becoming seriously ill.
And many of those who do get seriously ill from COVID usually have an underlying medical condition which weakens their immune system.
Somehow once we were in lockdown, the whole argument shifted to (utterly futile) prevention, that herd immunity was no longer a thing, that natural immunity was useless, that zero-Covid was possible, that we had to lockdown until we got a vaccine, etc. etc.
That was inevitable. Once we were in lockdown there was no obvious way out. I recall how utterly terrified people were in April 2020. E.g. a lady shouted at my kids not to touch her dog! To which the obvious solution is keep the dog under control but I digress.
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I'm not too sure, but some stupid fool posted a video on YouTube saying that behind the scenes in Whitehall they're planning a lockdown to save the NHS
I don't think this is credible information as not one of the Tory Leader candidates have mentioned such an idea and think most are anti lockdown
I'd have argued you aggressively build capacity (which, to be fair, we started to do with the Nightingales) *and* staffing, by rapidly mobilising some of the vast numbers of people who had just been put on furlough, combined with bringing doctors/nurses back after retirement/leaving the profession. Basically, if you're going to put curbs on the population that would only normally be justified in wartime, because apparently the issue is so important, then treat other things in the way you would in wartime in an attempt to fix them.
Oddly not a single country in the world did that, however. Instead, in almost every country we saw the objective swiftly and silently 'morph' from 'flatten the curve' to '(futilely) try to stop people dying'. Understandable perhaps, but wrong.
Of course I agree we shouldn't have locked down at all. We had the correct policy in the press conference of 12th March, but then over the following weekend something dramatically changed. Within a week the only public person that appeared to be asking 'hold on, is this a good idea' was Peter Hitchens.
I also agree we should never have locked down in March 2020, I felt from day 1 the damage caused would far outweigh any good it did. The reason so many were scared was down the atrocious messaging from both the government and the media
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