Crackdown on rail firms for hiding cheap fares

[maniacmartin]

Article in The Times:

Crackdown on rail firms for hiding cheap fares
Minister wants action after millions pay too much

Millions of passengers are being overcharged as train operators use a range of techniques to hide the cheapest fares, an investigation by The Times has found.

Rail companies are failing to show the cheapest tickets on two thirds of cross-country routes, causing travellers to pay up to £85 more than is necessary.

Paul Maynard, the rail minister, said yesterday that train operators must come up with an urgent action plan to make the system more transparent.

The investigation found:

• Long-distance journeys can cost more than double the cumulative price of shorter trips along the same route.
...

You'll have to login to The Times website to see the rest.

 

[Sleepy]

This is all very well for Minister to spout this but Dft seem quite happy for TVM to be installed everywhere to replace ticket office staff who can advise people.

 

[RJ]

Here we go again!

Whilst everyone wants a better deal, I suspect it's only a tiny minority of the population who will actually make the effort to complicate their ticketing arrangements to save money. That's the individual decision of each traveller. Through data the industry has made available, we now have websites like splitticketing.com which find and sell split tickets. I think his diatribe is unjustified. He's overestimated the industry's apparent conspiracy to hide cheaper fares and underestimated the average traveller's aversion to needlessly complicate things for themselves.

 

[TheEdge]

As a ticket trained member of staff the ruling on split tickets needs to remain as is. Its all well and good using them but as various websites and sources keep (MSE, Which? and various newspaper) suggesting them people are either not comprehending the alterations they make to their ticket. Everything from the simple must stop at rule through to more complex things like adding needless restrictions. Tickets from Breckland line stations have no evening peak restriction, I don't think many people who do the split fully comprehend they are adding evening peak restrictions to their tickets when they split them at Cambridge.

That and a growing number of people who ask for "the cheapest" or "split" and get huffy when I refuse if they don't know where they want to split. I had one passenger who wanted me to split a ticket from Brandon to Coventry but had absolutely no idea where to split it. I don't mind doing the well known local splits when people are aware they do exist but are not sure of the full details but when people expect me to sit there going through the literally hundreds and hundreds of possible splits for a long distance ticket I'm not playing.

 

[RJ]

I'm resolute in offering the simplest and cheapest ticket. That means not confusing people by voluntarily offering splits or tickets starting from a different station. It might be seen as benign to do so, but it can create a whole host of problems which makes it an unworthwhile practice.

 

[Oxfordblues]

The classic case is the 09:25 Plymouth-Aberdeen on which you can save a truly vast amount by rebooking at Totnes for the off-peak fare

 

[Harbornite]

I heard about this, thank the lord for split ticketing. I can get a Bristol- Uni fair reduced by nearly 20 quid.

 

[WelshBluebird]

That's the individual decision of each traveller.

Hmmm I don't think I agree there.

The vast majority of the population don't even know that sometimes the cheapest option isn't presented to them. You can't really call it a decision when the person doesn't even know there is an alternative to decide between!

Also it is important to note that not advising of splits is certainly not the only way ToC's hide cheaper fares.
For me the bigger issue is that of ticket machines and the limited set of the tickets they sometimes offer (the usual not selling off peak tickets until peak time has finished etc).

 

[DarloRich]

it is an easy PR win for the new Rail Minister with a few decent quotes in the Times showing the politicians need to be seen ordering an urgent inquiry or an action plan. It means nothing.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The real issue is surely not about split ticketing and the difficulty in making the public sufficiently aware of them. It's more that split ticketing is required in the first place to reduce fares to a level seen as affordable. And the blame for this belongs fairly and squarely on the way franchises are let and managed. So fingers should be pointed at the DfT and their political masters.

 

[TheEdge]

Hmmm I don't think I agree there.

The vast majority of the population don't even know that sometimes the cheapest option isn't presented to them. You can't really call it a decision when the person doesn't even know there is an alternative to decide between!

Split tickets are a loophole, they are not an official option, buying them is exploiting a loophole. They alter so much about a ticket and a journey and validity. To offer them often would only benefit this forum as the amount of people in the dispute forum would skyrocket.

If someone asks me for the cheapest ticket from Thetford to London including the underground they will be offered an Off Peak Travelcard, its the ticket they have requested and is the cheapest. I'm not going to (or capable of) memorising every possible split. Or remembering which split works only in the peaks but not off peak or visa versa.

 

[DarloRich]

If someone asks me for the cheapest ticket from Thetford to London including the underground they will be offered an Off Peak Travelcard, its the ticket they have requested and is the cheapest. I'm not going to (or capable of) memorising every possible split. Or remembering which split works only in the peaks but not off peak or visa versa.

No one, surely, could expect you to do that - could they?

 

[Bellbell]

Hmmm I don't think I agree there.

The vast majority of the population don't even know that sometimes the cheapest option isn't presented to them. You can't really call it a decision when the person doesn't even know there is an alternative to decide between!

Also it is important to note that not advising of splits is certainly not the only way ToC's hide cheaper fares.
For me the bigger issue is that of ticket machines and the limited set of the tickets they sometimes offer (the usual not selling off peak tickets until peak time has finished etc).

The way you've worded this suggests you think not advising of splits IS a way for TOCs to hide cheaper fares. I don't really think that's fair - as a previous poster commented, you can't realistically expect staff to check every combination of tickets for every possible journey. I know of some local splits that come up fairly often but the other day I was asked for a new one. I have no problem whatsoever selling them but to be accused of wilfully withholding cheaper fares by not offering ticket combinations I don't even know exist seems a bit rich.

That's not to say that I don't think the existing fares structure is complex and frustrating, just so we're clear.

 

[Llanigraham]

it is an easy PR win for the new Rail Minister with a few decent quotes in the Times showing the politicians need to be seen ordering an urgent inquiry or an action plan. It means nothing.

At last!!
Someone else who sees this for what it is!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Split tickets are a loophole, they are not an official option, buying them is exploiting a loophole. They alter so much about a ticket and a journey and validity. To offer them often would only benefit this forum as the amount of people in the dispute forum would skyrocket.

If someone asks me for the cheapest ticket from Thetford to London including the underground they will be offered an Off Peak Travelcard, its the ticket they have requested and is the cheapest. I'm not going to (or capable of) memorising every possible split. Or remembering which split works only in the peaks but not off peak or visa versa.

Quite.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No one, surely, could expect you to do that - could they?

Of course not!!
Who would think such a thing?

:roll:

 

[AlterEgo]

Split tickets are a loophole, they are not an official option, buying them is exploiting a loophole. They alter so much about a ticket and a journey and validity. To offer them often would only benefit this forum as the amount of people in the dispute forum would skyrocket.

If someone asks me for the cheapest ticket from Thetford to London including the underground they will be offered an Off Peak Travelcard, its the ticket they have requested and is the cheapest. I'm not going to (or capable of) memorising every possible split. Or remembering which split works only in the peaks but not off peak or visa versa.

And then you get overdistance tickets....

It's a minefield.

 

[Clip]

No one, surely, could expect you to do that - could they?

Go work in a ticket office and see just what passengers request and expect you to do for them.

If people come with the splits all worked out then thats what they will get served but some people seem to think that booking offices should know and do it all. You know in the name of excellent customer service and all that

 

[furlong]

Rather than worrying about 'split' tickets (beyond simple cases such as where two singles are cheaper than a return), it would be a good start if pressure was first put on companies' machines always to offer the cheapest 'normal' ticket for journeys and always to display complete information about all relevant restrictions.

How quickly would the machines get fixed if companies would be fined by a regulator or had to pay out 'double the difference' refunds to anyone who purchased a more-expensive ticket than necessary because a machine wouldn't sell the cheapest valid ticket?

I've seen ticket machines not selling cheaper TOC-only walk-up tickets for a different TOC without any notice saying so, railcard discounts not being applied in the morning 'peak' at weekends when there are no restrictions, only anytime tickets being offered in the morning at weekends when off-peak should be sold, certain off-peak tickets not being offered in the evening peak even though the restriction code means they are unrestricted and should be sold, different nearby machines offering different selections of fares for the same journey so if you pick the wrong machine you are overcharged etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Every nuance of the fares system is stoutly defended by the DfT fares regulator, to protect industry revenue.
People automatically think it's the greedy TOCs (it might be sometimes), but generally the structure which gives you umpteen fares and restrictions ultimately is down to DfT (and BR fares policy originally).
No rail minister has managed to overhaul the fares system, and the complexities just keep multiplying.

Most of the "cheapest fare" complaints are simply because of the differences in validity between Anytime, Off Peak and Advance tickets.
Are we going to abolish Off Peak and Advance fares? No, of course not.
At least the fares are published nowadays, instead of being regarded as a state secret.

 

[furlong]

Companies should also be required to show most public fares on their machines - including rovers and add-ons and tickets from other stations - and if for any reason they don't want to sell any of them, they should be required to provide the reason in situ and tell you what to do. For example "Off-peak return" shaded out "This machine will not sell you this ticket until 9.30am today. Press here for full validity information." or "This machine cannot print this rover. Please pay £X now for a Permit to Travel and exchange this for the rover on board or at the first ticket office you pass." or "This machine cannot sell this season ticket. Press here to buy a single ticket and take this to the ticket office at Y and pay the difference."

 

[pemma]

For example "Off-peak return" shaded out "This machine will not sell you this ticket until 9.30am today. Press here for full validity information."

They should sell you the ticket before 09:30 but warn of the validity restrictions before you make payment, otherwise TVMs are useless for selling tickets for departures between 09:30 and 09:35 (or the relevant end of peak period times.)

 

[endecotp]

The real issue is surely not about split ticketing and the difficulty in making the public sufficiently aware of them. It's more that split ticketing is required in the first place to reduce fares to a level seen as affordable.

Yes, this. Of course I don't expect individual ticket office staff to know the cheapest way to split a ticket; I'd simply like - in mathematical terms - the following:

fare from A to B <= fare from A to C + fare from C to B

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Yes, this. Of course I don't expect individual ticket office staff to know the cheapest way to split a ticket; I'd simply like - in mathematical terms - the following:

fare from A to B <= fare from A to C + fare from C to B

That's effectively distance based pricing, a subject discussed on here regularly and generally rejected for a number of reasons, including:

- difficult to make a change that's revenue neutral to the railway without appearing to make substantial increases to some fares

- would create winners and losers, how happy do you think the losers would be?

- loss of flexibility between routes where options exist currently

I don't disagree that some degree of regulation would be useful but a broad brush approach would almost certainly upset a lot of people.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

They should sell you the ticket before 09:30 but warn of the validity restrictions before you make payment, otherwise TVMs are useless for selling tickets for departures between 09:30 and 09:35 (or the relevant end of peak period times.)

You are assuming people would actually read it, I have little faith in that approach.

Perhaps selling them 5 or 10 minutes before might be okay, as this would allow tickets to be bought for trains departing close to the time restriction, but not too early to allow much misuse.

 

[MarkyT]

The classic case is the 09:25 Plymouth-Aberdeen on which you can save a truly vast amount by rebooking at Totnes for the off-peak fare

There are countless examples of this on XC to get over the fixed morning time restriction on off peak. The full anytime return fare is a particularly galling expense if you are quite prepared to travel off peak on your return but simply can't get a discount as they don't do walk on off peak singles like GWR for instance.

 

[Agent_c]

Split tickets are a loophole, they are not an official option, buying them is exploiting a loophole. .

Its not a loophole when it is explicitly stated and included in the NCoC.

If it was a case of buying two tickets and you-pays-your-money-you-take-your-chances whether you make any connecting train then yes, it would be a loophole.

But when the NCoC are written to allow for split ticketing and make it work on the same basis as if you held a single ticket for a whole journey, then its not a loophole, its a (poorly marketed) feature of the system.

 

[neilmc]

There are countless examples of this on XC to get over the fixed morning time restriction on off peak. The full anytime return fare is a particularly galling expense if you are quite prepared to travel off peak on your return but simply can't get a discount as they don't do walk on off peak singles like GWR for instance.

XC have created these huge anomalies by introducing a blanket morning off-peak restriction just to cheat the unwary traveller who may not even be making any kind of "peak" journey, especially when these journeys do not involve travel into London and the busiest trains may be outside of a commuting peak.

Fortunately they are very easy to avoid if you are travelling only part-journey before 09:30 since the stopping pattern on XC tends to be regular and reasonably frequent so you can always do your splits at a journey the train will call at in both directions. But if XC weren't so greedy this wouldn't be necessary and I'm glad that the majority of this bad press seems to focus on their travel flows.

 

[AlterEgo]

XC have created these huge anomalies by introducing a blanket morning off-peak restriction just to cheat the unwary traveller who may not even be making any kind of "peak" journey, especially when these journeys do not involve travel into London and the busiest trains may be outside of a commuting peak.

Fortunately they are very easy to avoid if you are travelling only part-journey before 09:30 since the stopping pattern on XC tends to be regular and reasonably frequent so you can always do your splits at a journey the train will call at in both directions. But if XC weren't so greedy this wouldn't be necessary and I'm glad that the majority of this bad press seems to focus on their travel flows.

As I always say:

You can have it simpler, or you can have it cheaper.

 

[NSEFAN]

Its not a loophole when it is explicitly stated and included in the NCoC.

If it was a case of buying two tickets and you-pays-your-money-you-take-your-chances whether you make any connecting train then yes, it would be a loophole.

But when the NCoC are written to allow for split ticketing and make it work on the same basis as if you held a single ticket for a whole journey, then its not a loophole, its a (poorly marketed) feature of the system.

Indeed, split tickets are expressly permitted and are therefore not a loophole. I don't believe however that TOCs should be required to calculate splits on demand for passengers. That's for passengers to work out for themselves.

I do agree however with others on here, that all TVMs being required to offer the FULL range of tickets which could be bought from the station, given that ticket offices seem to be slowly phased out across the network. It can't be hard to have a massive flashing warning about time / railcard restrictions etc, since the pax are ultimately responsible for making sure their ticket is correct. If pax are getting confused then there needs to be a "noobs" interface to guide pax through the sales process, with an "Advanced" option for those who know exactly what fare they want.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Split tickets are a loophole, they are not an official option, buying them is exploiting a loophole. They alter so much about a ticket and a journey and validity. To offer them often would only benefit this forum as the amount of people in the dispute forum would skyrocket.

If someone asks me for the cheapest ticket from Thetford to London including the underground they will be offered an Off Peak Travelcard, its the ticket they have requested and is the cheapest. I'm not going to (or capable of) memorising every possible split. Or remembering which split works only in the peaks but not off peak or visa versa.

Nope they most certainly are not a loophole as they are explicitly allowed by the terms of carriage. Hell there have been cases of people believing they HAVE to do split ticketing because they thought they couldn't by mainline tickets on their branch line bit of the journey.

However, that does not mean I think ticket offices should have to specifically explain and work out splits for all customers. More that as long are people are aware that it is an option but that the customer has to do the legwork so to speak, then I'd be happy with that situation. It is just at the moment it really feels to be like a bit of a dirty secret.

The way you've worded this suggests you think not advising of splits IS a way for TOCs to hide cheaper fares. I don't really think that's fair - as a previous poster commented, you can't realistically expect staff to check every combination of tickets for every possible journey. I know of some local splits that come up fairly often but the other day I was asked for a new one. I have no problem whatsoever selling them but to be accused of wilfully withholding cheaper fares by not offering ticket combinations I don't even know exist seems a bit rich.

That's not to say that I don't think the existing fares structure is complex and frustrating, just so we're clear.

As above, I am certainly not expecting that. But what I would like is for the very fact that splits can work out cheaper to be actually known to the public. Right now it does seem like a bit of an industry dirty secret, and it is only because of news articles like this that people outside of the industry / forums like this one know about.

You are assuming people would actually read it, I have little faith in that approach.

Perhaps selling them 5 or 10 minutes before might be okay, as this would allow tickets to be bought for trains departing close to the time restriction, but not too early to allow much misuse.

The problem with that is that you are still punishing genuine passengers. Certainly at some stations where there is just a single ticket machine. Surely if a manned ticket booth would sell an off peak ticket at peak time for later use then the rules should be a ticket machine does aswell. In the past I've got around the restriction by buying the ticket on my phone while travelling to the station then picking it up, so if I can do that then why on earth won't the machine itself sell the exact same ticket to me? It literally makes no sense. I do get the argument about people claiming they didn't see the restriction etc, but the exact same issue is there for online / app bookings so I'm not sure that is a convincing reason.

 

[bb21]

The whole discussion of "loopholes" is pointless. For a start, the definition can hardly be agreed on, and secondly, what constitutes a "loophole" in the ticketing world is difficult to pin down even if a definition can be agreed on.

It matters little anyway. What is important is what is permitted and not permitted, not whether something is a loophole or not. Splits are just a quirk of the existing system.