Crackdown on rail firms for hiding cheap fares

[AlterEgo]

I've no idea why they call it airline-style ticketing.

Full service airlines don't usually price multi-sector tickets as simple combinations of the constituent leg-to-leg fares.

It'll be interesting if this ever does happen. Another step backwards for the joined up railway approach I feel, if this goes ahead.

 

[trainmania100]

Southern must be hiding some fares
I cant believe it costed me 10.40 off peak return from Preston park to three bridges
I thought it was 10.00 Brighton to Gatwick

 

[rebmcr]

Southern must be hiding some fares
I cant believe it costed me 10.40 off peak return from Preston park to three bridges

They are not.

I thought it was 10.00 Brighton to Gatwick

It can actually be as low as £6.50, but the equivalent ticket to yours is also £10.40.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've no idea why they call it airline-style ticketing.
Full service airlines don't usually price multi-sector tickets as simple combinations of the constituent leg-to-leg fares.
It'll be interesting if this ever does happen. Another step backwards for the joined up railway approach I feel, if this goes ahead.

I can't see the full article, but "airline style ticketing" these days probably means single-leg purchase, as practised by the LCCs.
Maybe it includes the long-discussed off-peak single being 50% of the return, and not "return less £1" (SVR/SVS), one of the major distortions of rail fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do hope so. Single leg ticketing with free "trade ins" would remove all the complexity surrounding excesses in a stroke.


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[northwichcat]

Let's hope it's not Air France style ticketing where the single can cost £500 when the return costs you £150.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can't see the full article, but "airline style ticketing" these days probably means single-leg purchase, as practised by the LCCs.
Maybe it includes the long-discussed off-peak single being 50% of the return, and not "return less £1" (SVR/SVS), one of the major distortions of rail fares.

Yes, I think you're right about that.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Yes, that would make a lot more sense about why they need DfT permission, because the TOCs would be looking for a guarantee that any decrease in revenue would be made good.

 

[rebmcr]

I can't see the full article, but "airline style ticketing" these days probably means single-leg purchase, as practised by the LCCs.

What's an LCC?

Maybe it includes the long-discussed off-peak single being 50% of the return, and not "return less £1" (SVR/SVS), one of the major distortions of rail fares.

Virgin West Coast already offer this when you buy a matching Advance for the reverse leg, through their website.

 

[Andrewlong]

Are there downsides to ticket splitting? For example, would you have to buy a new ticket to board an onward service (same TOC or other TOC) if you have missed your original planned connection due to a delay or cancellation of your first train?

If not, what reasons could TOCs have to not add the functionality offered by trainsplit.com to the TVMs and ticket offices?

Two I can think of.
1) If you have reserved seats on a single train journey and have split your journey - you may well have to change seats at every split. I experienced this when I travelled from Reading to Birmingham New Street and split at Banbury.
2) You get a set of ticket for each split plus reservation tickets as well. So you can end up with a pile. If throwing away completed tickets, make sure you throw away the right ones.

I travelled from Reading to Bristol TM and Cardiff last year with split ticket and savings were significant.

 

[transmanche]

What's an LCC?

Low-cost carrier? I.e., the easyJets and Ryanairs of this world.

Virgin West Coast already offer this when you buy a matching Advance for the reverse leg, through their website.

East Coast used to offer something similar (for some journeys) if you bought it from their website, without the need for buying a matching Advance for the reverse leg. Sadly this seems to have disappeared under VTEC.

 

[richw]

I had a play with a GWR tvm today as there was no queue After I bought my actual tickets. Said machine was offering off peak returns when super off peak returns were appropriate for the input journeys

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What's an LCC?
Virgin West Coast already offer this when you buy a matching Advance for the reverse leg, through their website.

LCC = Low Cost Carrier - EasyJet, Ryanair, Jet2, Flybe, Norwegian etc.
The full service guys (BA, AF, KL, LH) are having to offer the same style (within Europe, at any rate) - none of the old Saturday night stay rubbish.

It's part of the reason why train fares can seem so uncompetitive with air (though air fares are more like rail Advances (booked flight only) than Off Peak).

You are right about Virgin WC, but forcing you to buy a ticket the other way rather defeats the point, and it's only available on line (yet another distortion).
GWR began to offer half-savers without needing a return fare, but quickly put the one-way fare up to something like 2/3 of the return.

 

[Master29]

Southern must be hiding some fares
I cant believe it costed me 10.40 off peak return from Preston park to three bridges
I thought it was 10.00 Brighton to Gatwick

Gatwick Express are a bit dubious with their ticketing anyway. Their off peak return price is usually around £20 if bought in advance but can be well over that if you buy on the day. I don`t notice this with other TOC`s.

 

[bb21]

Gatwick Express are a bit dubious with their ticketing anyway. Their off peak return price is usually around £20 if bought in advance but can be well over that if you buy on the day. I don't notice this with other TOC's.

How?

Are you comparing like with like?

 

[route:oxford]

Full service airlines don't usually price multi-sector tickets as simple combinations of the constituent leg-to-leg fares.

Is Flybe a "Full Service Airline"? They certainly code-share.

I'm sure they do a multi-stage flight that does Jersey-Southampton-Newcastle-Aberdeen where through passengers stay on board at each landing.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is Flybe a "Full Service Airline"? They certainly code-share.

I'm sure they do a multi-stage flight that does Jersey-Southampton-Newcastle-Aberdeen where through passengers stay on board at each landing.

The question isn't one of logistics but on how fares are calculated.

Flybe are definitely not a full service airline.

 

[Master29]

How?

Are you comparing like with like?

I meant the TOC`s I`ve used don`t usually vary their off peak prices if you buy on the day to if you buy well in advance but GX seem to.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The Gatwick Express website offers a discount when purchasing tickets for travel on their services, they can do this because they basically have a monopoly on train services between Gatwick and London (and they want to close ticket offices). Buying on the day from the station would not get this discount.

It may also be that you are comparing two Advance singles with one 'Any Permitted' Anytime Return.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

I can't see the full article, but "airline style ticketing" these days probably means single-leg purchase, as practised by the LCCs.
Maybe it includes the long-discussed off-peak single being 50% of the return, and not "return less £1" (SVR/SVS), one of the major distortions of rail fares.

This was a recommendation of the DfT's Fares Review from 2/3(?) years ago but nothing seems to have happened. It would make web sites way simpler. You could then just show a fixed and flexible price for every train like Eurotunnel's site. No tosh like letting people buy 2 x advances that are more expensive than a return.

 

[infobleep]

That's effectively distance based pricing, a subject discussed on here regularly and generally rejected for a number of reasons, including:

- difficult to make a change that's revenue neutral to the railway without appearing to make substantial increases to some fares

- would create winners and losers, how happy do you think the losers would be?

- loss of flexibility between routes where options exist currently

I don't disagree that some degree of regulation would be useful but a broad brush approach would almost certainly upset a lot of people.

I've heard people leave say on here, in relation to other railway matters, there will always be winners and losers.

Whilst I personally think it needs to change, I don't know enough to give solutions that I could argue were better.

If it did change I'm sure it would affect me for the worse but I wouldn't mind if it was for the greater good as a whole.

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As I always say:

You can have it simpler, or you can have it cheaper.

Given that we need to fund our railway system and future improvements, there is the argument that simpler and more expensive would be better.

If the railways are not funded, how can infrastructure improvements take place. The government don't seem so keen to fund them.

Perhaps if passenger paid more, infrastructure improvements could happen sooner.

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[rebmcr]

Perhaps if passenger paid more, infrastructure improvements could happen sooner.

I bet you're popular!

 

[Master29]

The Gatwick Express website offers a discount when purchasing tickets for travel on their services, they can do this because they basically have a monopoly on train services between Gatwick and London (and they want to close ticket offices). Buying on the day from the station would not get this discount.

It may also be that you are comparing two Advance singles with one 'Any Permitted' Anytime Return.

Looks like I made a booboo. It is £20.50 on Southern services but not on GX. As you say it is possible that`s what I saw.

Not a monopoly as such. Southern services are only a bit slower if you get the services that call at East Croydon and CJ only.

 

[jon0844]

I do think that making single fares half the price of a return is the way forward, as it makes it far easier for people doing A>B>C journeys, as well as effectively doing away with day or anytime tickets because you just buy the return for/on the day you want without a penalty.

 

[infobleep]

I bet you're popular!

Lol.

Unfortunately this government doesn't want to pay money towards the railways. I'd prefer them to do so but they won't listen to me. However I want to see infrastructure improvements. I find it frustrating that trains cannot stop at Clapham Junction during peak rush hour on the South West Trains mainline. I can't be certain if will ever be possible but on the off chance it might be perhaps higher fares might bring infrastructure improvements sooner on such lines.

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[Mike@Raileasy]

Lol.

Unfortunately this government doesn't want to pay money towards the railways. I'd prefer them to do so but they won't listen to me. However I want to see infrastructure improvements. I find it frustrating that trains cannot stop at Clapham Junction during peak rush hour on the South West Trains mainline. I can't be certain if will ever be possible but on the off chance it might be perhaps higher fares might bring infrastructure improvements sooner on such lines.

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It's a "function" of Governments to invest in infrastructure, it's one way to make economies more efficent and they are the ones who have access to the capital required. The Northern Powerhouse is a classic example. Raising fares just makes rail even more uncompetitive v. driving, coach or flying on long distance routes anyway.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Not a monopoly as such. Southern services are only a bit slower if you get the services that call at East Croydon and CJ only.

Gatwick Express is a trading name of the Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) franchise, the same is true for Southern and Thameslink. The portion of revenue allocated for Great Western's services between Gatwick and Redhill is likely to be so small that we could consider it zero. So no matter whose services you use, your money goes to the same place.
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I do think that making single fares half the price of a return is the way forward, as it makes it far easier for people doing A>B>C journeys, as well as effectively doing away with day or anytime tickets because you just buy the return for/on the day you want without a penalty.

I would be concerned about the implementation of that, given that some journeys have four return ticket types, but only two single ticket types.

 

[jon0844]

The fact that some places have more options than others is another issue in itself. I can't get open returns for short journeys, for example. So staying over somewhere means I have to buy expensive singles.

 

[Gareth Marston]

aTW's recent retail brief instructed staff not to offer split tickets unless specifically asked by the ciustomer do so.

 

[infobleep]

It's a "function" of Governments to invest in infrastructure, it's one way to make economies more efficent and they are the ones who have access to the capital required. The Northern Powerhouse is a classic example. Raising fares just makes rail even more uncompetitive v. driving, coach or flying on long distance routes anyway.

It may well be but the government hasn't always seemed that keen in my eyes. I mean look at the rolling stock issues around the country. Then there are lines that I think need additional infrastructure changes now with planning having been started 5-10 years ago.

I wasn't commuting 5-10 years ago though and it may be that such changes were not thought to be needed back then

I wouldn't be surprised if the same number of fast line trains was running between Wimbledon and Waterloo back then. I don't mean stopping at Wimbledon but going through on the fast line.

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On a split ticking journey I made once, two legs back to back put me in the same seat. Had I combined those two legs into one, it would have cost me more!

I had more than two legs in my journey. That was a journey from Newcastle to Oxford I seem to remember.

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