Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by aformeruser, 18 Jul 2014.

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  1. hooverboy

    hooverboy Member

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    I like your thinking, but I beg to differ on the CAF units being suitable, even 172's for that matter.
    northern has got some absolutely rotten sharp curves on it's routes.20m or less carriage length is required.

    I think a 17m artic like the talent would cope, but a standard 23m like a turbostar has too much swing in it.
    I think the maximum artic car length the UK can cope with is 18.7m like the eurostars,so for low speed rail needs to be quite a bit shorter.

    CAF do have an EMU with 15m artics I believe...could be an option if they can stick a power plant under it.
     
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Is it? There are not many routes on Northern where Class 156s can't go; the random unit generator kicks them out all over the shop.
     
  3. hooverboy

    hooverboy Member

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    If they could standardise the gauge over the UK it would be so much simpler!
    There are a few, but there are also a few which bar pacers as well.

    what's needed is a "go-anywhere" unit.
    The 150 is probably about the closest on the network to it.
    The 14x could be if it wasn't for the single axles.(and only 1 power axle per car)

    I've got a bit of a soft spot for the 156.yes it's dated,and doesn't have aircon, but it's been a thoroughly reliable workhorse.
    Boring as hell to travel on,but you know you will get where you intend to go....it's the ford escort of the railway world.
     
    Last edited: 22 May 2019
  4. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Class 323s are 23m, but can't they go most places (that have wires) due to the steep tapering at the vehicle ends? But more generally, perhaps an 18m vehicle articulated unit would be the way to go - be that a FLIRT or something else? Low floor would be a massive bonus - when the North West was full of low platforms, even the relatively low bottom step on a Pacer came in useful.

    Built by Met-Camm (before the French got their grubby mitts on it), so a worthy successor of the long-lived Class 101, though in reality more like a non-aircon Mk3 coach with a diesel engine underneath. I reckon when these go enthusiasts will be chasing them around for months and will really mourn their passing.
     
  5. hooverboy

    hooverboy Member

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    to be sure.
    I think they still have plenty of life left because they are so useful, but when they pass( like CL37/47 which were also the mainstay of IC and freight alike, and hundreds of them too, they will certainly be missed!)

    I saw geoff marshalls HST video from paddington..great video!,HST's will be thought of this way too.just a shame that they couldn't organise matching rakes ,and the original blue+yellow didn't have the paxman-valenta units doing a bit of thrash....that would have been a proper send off!!!
     
    Last edited: 22 May 2019
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    They are ideal like nothing else for "long and thin" rural routes - low loadings so the end doors are fine, big windows for the view, incredibly reliable. Just a bit noisy, that's all.
     
  7. hooverboy

    hooverboy Member

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    the noise isn't that bad,at least they've got opening windows where you can get a real country air blast of cow**** and diesel!
    that's the most fun part of rural train journeys!
     
  8. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    One of the best noises to come out of a train - I always sit in the end of the outer cars to listen to a 323s acceleration and deceleration :D
     
  9. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    One nice thing about 230s (at least the LNR variety) is that they too have opening windows, though I believe there's some kind of Chiltern-style air cooling system (not full aircon) as well.
     
  10. Cambrian359

    Cambrian359 Member

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    Any news on the ones heading for wales?
     
  11. mmh

    mmh Established Member

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    Nonsense. Pay Bomardier to make a 20m train and they'd have done it. They've built more of them than anyone else.
     
  12. Brissle Girl

    Brissle Girl Member

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    Except that they made a conscious decision not to participate in the dmu market for several years.
     
  13. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Is there enough room below the solebar of a 20m vehicle for the engine and all the relevant emissions gubbins for a 90+mph unit? I'm not clear that there is, hence why the Class 150 was the last 20m diesel built for the UK.

    You could put the engine above the floor, either in a generator module per Stadler or just like the Class 210 - but then you've got substantially reduced capacity. You could build one like the Class 230, but that takes advantage of older EMUs having next to nothing under two of the coaches - you couldn't have all vehicles powered so a 2-car unit is non-viable. You could go for a lower top speed like the 230, but then why not just buy a 230?

    Of course, once you move away from socking great diesel lumps to batteries and top-up petrol generators and the likes this might well change - after all, the Parry People Mover fits it all under a vehicle, what, about 12m long?

    Maybe it's no bad thing these units don't exist yet - perhaps 10 years' time, with improved battery tech, is the time to create them - and get the dirty diesel off our rural branches entirely?
     
  14. Peter Sarf

    Peter Sarf Established Member

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    Well... Do you mean cheap in appearance or cheap in terms of cost ?.

    I would expect it to be cheap in cost terms as it IS secondhand. It appears, from plenty of eyewitness accounts, that it is nice, comfortable and new looking.
     
  15. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Yes, it has a nice interior - at the moment, though, I don't know how long the reliability issues can go on for...
     
  16. hooverboy

    hooverboy Member

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    with recent improvements in engine and transmission technology there certainly is.
    a typical engine block will now pump out about 20-30% more power from the same size block than one built in the 1980's, torque is also improved by 10-15% or so.

    ...think advancements going from all steel to alloy engines, cylinder coatings,egr,refinements in turbo's , ecu rather than cam timings etc etc.

    likewise with torque convertors.Slightly better efficiency but a smaller box.

    That gives you a bit of scope to downsize the components as required.
    for a 90mph unit(2 powered axle per car), you would need to target around 9bhp/tonne (tare), 8bhp/tonne fully loaded.
     
  17. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    we are in week 2 of a 2 train service so the teething issues need to start tapering off quite soon.
     
  18. sibbahz

    sibbahz New Member

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    Seems that there are more of the same issues today, got from Bedford to Lidlington then got cancelled, followed by a large number of cancellations.
    More are being cancelled than are running at the moment, won’t be long until the public want the 150 back, or even the grotty 153!
     

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  19. boxy321

    boxy321 Member

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    After my experiences this week can we have some 230s on the Snow Hill lines please? The 153's were amusing on a day out to Kenilworth once a year but any more than that...
     
  20. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Hypothetically if they are not resolved, what might LNR do? Would it be viable to short-form a couple of Brum area diagrams and send 2 x 153 down? They'd be overcrowded on the school runs but might at least run reliably.

    Could implement an emergency timetable to allow the school runs to be doubled up (i.e. by way of flighting, I know they can't work in multiple) at the expense of some cancellations at other times?

    It seems odd how many major issues seem to be surfacing when there's been extensive testing already.
     
  21. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    I see seven services were cancelled yesterday.

    RTT gives the reason for cancellation of the 2112 from Bedford as late arrival of an inbound service, but the inbound arrived only 3 minutes late, at 2108. Does anyone know the real reason?
    At least one of the 150s has been seen in service with Northern already, so if it is any comfort your sacrifice is not in vain!
     
  22. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    There were delays first thing but both trains were in service and the delay was reported as a "blocked platform"! Seems to be broken down although the other one is towards bedford! That service is still carrying delay from first thing this morning.

    LNWR will go to buses as they always do.

    Acceptance testing and real life in service environments are often different. The stop/start, doors open and closed, people on and off, flushing the toilet, pressing the buttons real life use will drive out different and often unknown snags. As long as they taper off quite quickly i think they are normal teething troubles.
     
  23. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Regarding my comments on the suitability of the 230s, I have said previously and it is well documented that Northern use their units intensively and across a variety of routes. So a unit one day operating Huddersfield to Sheffield, might the next day be running from Leeds to Morecambe, and the next day Leeds to Sheffield via Moorthorpe. I don't know the exact operational reasons for this, but clearly they need stock that can operate over numerous routes, and not stock that is limited to a few. Plus ordering small batches of unique units means depots need to spend more time learning the mechanical and operational needs, and keeping this knowledge up to date. This all adds to the cost of running units, a cost that might be offset by spending more on new but identical units as with the CAF order.

    And then there is the issue of the lifespan of these units. Let's just speculate that the 230 costs about two thirds of the cost of a new one to build, lease and operate. Given that current DMU stock is expected to operate for at least 30-40 years, then the 230s would be expected to operate for at least 20-30 years. Will they really last that long, being as someone upthread described as a garden shed engineering project? I have serious doubts.

    Anyway, it is what it is. Northern will not be placing orders any time soon, no matter how much some members bang on about it. I think I'll leave it there.
     
  24. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    I know it's probably the most talked about line on the Forum, but there's nothing unique about Marston Vale.

    We are facing a situation where there are over a hundred Pacers that need scrapping - we are facing a situation where 153s don't seem economically viable to upgrade (other than as Scottish luggage vans) - we are therefore facing a situation where there are lots of "Provincial" services where decent acceleration matters more than top speed.

    Marston Vale maybe made sense as a self contained line to trail these on but Northern/ Wales & Borders/ East Midlands Trains/ GWR all run a number of slow services.

    With no more 142/143/144/153s running around, there are more of these slow routes than there are 150s. But instead of ordering some "basic" self powered trains suited to branch lines, we are ordering more "flagship" DMUs suited to longer distance routes and hoping that a 158/170 won't be too sluggish at coping with the frequent stop/start nature of those lines.

     
  25. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    and the 13x 153s Transport for Wales will get refurbished, PRM modified and continue to run until 2023

    nope
     
  26. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    Are the reliability problems all engine related...? If so I think Vivarail should replace all the twin-Ford setups with the CATs
     
  27. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    No, it's a mix of issues. The door issues are the most surprising, as the door mechanisms are the originals which have worked reliably on LUL for years. That said, they have been "throttled" to slow them down - but they need speeding back up!
     
  28. gingertom

    gingertom Member

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    I seem to remember someone from Vivarail saying the Ford engine used was the biggest that could be squeezed into the available space. I'm not familiar with the Cat engine being talked about here but I'd have thought there'd be something suitable in Volvo's Penta marine engine range.
     
  29. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    because you can just grab a new engine type of the shelf and plumb it in just like that!
     
  30. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    It's certainly a lot easier with a 230 than most stock, though you would need to design a new raft for it.
     
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