Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Goldfish62]

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I would say that the 'small profile' trains would class as light rail, but the large profile trains would not.

LUL is officially classified as heavy rail, irrespective of the train profile.

 

[southern442]

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LUL is officially classified as heavy rail, irrespective of the train profile.

Well that also seems fair enough. And it is also pretty obvious that the D stock is heavy rail just by looking at the things

 

[zn1]

LUL use alot of 95-113ilb rail - thats heavy rail,

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Isnt the differentiation between light and heavy rail down to the weight of the train as opposed to the weight of the rail? As i understand it Tyne and Wear Metro is classified as a light rail system (although when first introduced were called trams!) but simply reused the track that had already been laid by BR.

I would suggest London Underground benefit from using such a heavy weighted rail because of the intensity of the service they run. A lighter rail would wear down far quicker and cost more maintenance in the long run

 

[southern442]

Isnt the differentiation between light and heavy rail down to the weight of the train as opposed to the weight of the rail? As i understand it Tyne and Wear Metro is classified as a light rail system (although when first introduced were called trams!) but simply reused the track that had already been laid by BR.

I would suggest London Underground benefit from using such a heavy weighted rail because of the intensity of the service they run. A lighter rail would wear down far quicker and cost more maintenance in the long run

I think that post was meant to be slightly tongue-in-cheek - although if the guy was being serious, then I agree that the quality of the rails determining what sort of a system it is seems like a silly idea.

 

[jopsuk]

to confuse things, in the UK "Light Rail" has no formal definition, but "Light Railway" does, incorporating many preserved lines and apparently the Heart of Wales lines?

 

[northwichcat]

The following has been posted by Tony Miles on wnxx, which to me makes it sound like a large scale production of class 230 D-Trains is now unlikely. Shooter gambled on DfT deciding a new DMU order wasn't going to happen and it hasn't paid off for him.

I understand that the deals for some of the new stock, with anticipated lower maintenance costs, make the additional cost of using them only a marginal step from paying for some of the older trains. The D78 conversions in particular have become increasingly expensive and that's even before the insides are made to look even vaguely like a new train. In addition the specs for Northern include free wifi on every train etc. and once you start adding that, and power for it, and consider how many years it needs to be in use to write off the cost of using it, the conversion of ex-underground stock becomes increasingly unattractive.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thought I heard a vague echo of celebration/laughter coming from the leafy Cheshire suburbs!

Personally I think it's a shame, as these could have worked in a few admittedly limited areas, certainly if there are/were any mothballed lines with some degree of potential for reopening they could've made such easier. Then again, if new stock compares well financially it would seem a no-brainer.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think the further point is that if you want ultralight stock that would be confined to branchlines then there is new build stock options that are even cheaper than refurbishment, and if you want mainline stock then the refurbished stock would have to be significantly cheaper to offset the disadvantage of lower performance and operating restrictions.

The D78 conversions due to rising costs have found themselves priced out of contention at both ends of the scale.

 

[47802]

Thought I heard a vague echo of celebration/laughter coming from the leafy Cheshire suburbs!

Personally I think it's a shame, as these could have worked in a few admittedly limited areas, certainly if there are/were any mothballed lines with some degree of potential for reopening they could've made such easier. Then again, if new stock compares well financially it would seem a no-brainer.

While the project does have some merits, there seems to have been much of hint of the tail (Shooter) trying to wag the dog in this project. Yes Northern will have these trains because I have decided to take a punt on these trains and I need it to pay off, rather than are these trains the best overall solution for Northern or any other TOC for that matter.

 

[route:oxford]

While the project does have some merits, there seems to have been much of hint of the tail (Shooter) trying to wag the dog in this project. Yes Northern will have these trains because I have decided to take a punt on these trains and I need it to pay off, rather than are these trains the best overall solution for Northern or any other TOC for that matter.

Don't confuse planning with promotion...

If accurate, it's a shame really. These do have potential functions throughout the Network.

Whether it's an Oxford to BMW via Science Park shuttle, an extra Stirling-Alloa (or Dunfermline) shuttle, Falkirk-Grangemouth shuttle.

There is an opportunity.

 

[southern442]

to confuse things, in the UK "Light Rail" has no formal definition, but "Light Railway" does, incorporating many preserved lines and apparently the Heart of Wales lines?

Certain railway lines can be given a "Light Railway Order" which I think just means they are called a light railway, so I think the term 'light railway' is just a label without any defining restrictions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thought I heard a vague echo of celebration/laughter coming from the leafy Cheshire suburbs!

For one moment, I thought you were referring to me, until I saw the mention of the word "suburbs". We are, as you may be aware, some considerable distance away from what can be termed "suburbs" in our beautiful country area between Prestbury and Mottram St Andrew.

Adrian Shooter has been involved at a high level in industry for a considerable period of time and the decision to go ahead with the Class 230 project is one that I am sure he was a prime mover in, but that was a commercial decision that has proved not to be one that was hoped would occur.

It is, as a number of posters said much earlier in this thread, not "innovation" but simply a commercial decision to use old rolling stock as a base for a product to launch. There has been comment made in the past about how costs can vary subject to the actual internal requirements requested by prospective purchasers, but the original point made by Vivarail was introducing these units are a much lower cost than other rolling stock options totally ignored all such matters.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Just for arguments sake, what about the Selby - Leeds and Selby - York shuttles...? Good opportunity there to use them as well as Hull - Scarbrough

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just for arguments sake, what about the Selby - Leeds and Selby - York shuttles...? Good opportunity there to use them as well as Hull - Scarbrough

Perhaps you could put your ideas forward to the official sources in order that their responses may be evaluated upon this thread.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I thought you were the source!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought you were the source!

No ideas for possible uses of the Class 230 units is ever likely to come from me..

 

[asylumxl]

Do we know how much they paid for the units? I'm sure they will not be too fussed if they can recoup most of the costs in scrap value. If the value of scrap goes up they might even break even.

 

[The Ham]

Do we know how much they paid for the units? I'm sure they will not be too fussed if they can recoup most of the costs in scrap value. If the value of scrap goes up they might even break even.

If they are selling for scrap but have a (near?) working prototype then one of the heritage lines may be interested. As quite a few could be interested in running commuter services.

Given the enginea are Ford Transits then the maintenance could be done by most motor mechanics making it less difficult to find volunteers to help look after them, likewise parts would be cheap.

60mph top speed wouldn't be a problem given that they would never need to go that fast.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You beat me to it!

I was going to make the same point and note that when in use on the District line the D78s were interworking with Class 416s and Class 313s in the Richmond area. I don't believe there's anywhere in the UK where 'light rail' and 'heavy rail' share tracks?

I think the Metropolitan line shares tracks with iirc the mail line out of Marlybone

 

[jopsuk]

I think the Metropolitan line shares tracks with iirc the mail line out of Marlybone

As has been repeated up thread, London Underground is officially "heavy rail".

But Tyne & Wear Metro is "light rail", as is the forthcoming Sheffield TramTrain

 

[A0]

I think the Metropolitan line shares tracks with iirc the mail line out of Marlybone

It does between Harrow on the Hill and Amersham - but the D trains were never used on the Met - until the new stock arrived it was A60 / A62s - which are not the same as the Ds.

 

[northwichcat]

Just for arguments sake, what about the Selby - Leeds and Selby - York shuttles...?

Won't they be electric by 2022? If so can the cost of conversion be recouped by then?

 

[po8crg]

If they are selling for scrap but have a (near?) working prototype then one of the heritage lines may be interested. As quite a few could be interested in running commuter services.

GMPTE/TfGM, Lancashire CC and ELR have been talking about an ELR commuter service for years, running into Bury for connections to Metrolink (and perhaps Castleton for main line connections).

 

[Roose]

Leeds/York - Selby: they aren't allowed as part of the Northern/TPE franchises, remember. Are you suggesting open access services?

Perhaps one of the Settle & Carlisle organisations might put in an open access bid to trundle to somewhere that way from somewhere else with seats arranged around windows?

Given the number of Class 230 proponents on here it surely can't be long before a crowd-funding proposal is put forward to demonstrate their worth to the world - lots of non-Northern/TPE routes elsewhere in the country where new-looking trains might be welcomed to improve frequency/capacity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

GMPTE/TfGM, Lancashire CC and ELR have been talking about an ELR commuter service for years, running into Bury for connections to Metrolink (and perhaps Castleton for main line connections).

But "talking" is the only matter to have occurred so far in that time period....:roll:

 

[Greybeard33]

GMPTE/TfGM, Lancashire CC and ELR have been talking about an ELR commuter service for years, running into Bury for connections to Metrolink (and perhaps Castleton for main line connections).

I thought that idea had been kicked way into the long grass by the 2012 East Lancashire/West Rochdale Area Study report, which concluded:

The operation of conventional passenger rail services between
Rawtenstall and Manchester with the continued operation of Heritage Rail
Services is not financially viable given that:

• all of the options appraised had benefit-to-cost ratios significantly below
the minimum required by the DfT and have very low GVA per pound
spent compared to other schemes in the Greater Manchester Transport
Fund; and

• for all of the options appraised, forecast revenue is below operating
costs and on-going revenue support would be needed of between
£1.82 million and £3.66 million per annum.

and instead recommended bus priority and traffic management measures, together with improvements to pedestrian and cycle routes.

I doubt that the use of Class 230s would transform the business case, compared with the Northern 142s or ELR heritage DMUs considered in the study.

 

[asylumxl]

If the ELR wishes to try and run the services themselves, is there anything stopping them doing so on their own metals?

 

[Clip]

If the ELR wishes to try and run the services themselves, is there anything stopping them doing so on their own metals?

The price mainly.

Be a shame if this project is curtailed but I guess ill wait to see a formal statement from the company.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

A while back in this thread there was pictures of a "partial" conversion, have they got one that has been "fully" converted yet?