Crewe-Chester electrification

[YorkshireBear]

A very expensive way of ensuring competency

it is only on a saturday its not like its midweek. could be worse.

 

[OxtedL]

A very expensive way of ensuring competency

But surely very useful and important competency, for diversions and operational flexibility around the network, both during disruption and due to failures, engineering work, ...

Virgin are generally very savvy, I don't think they would do this if they didn't think it was necessary.

 

[merlodlliw]

I've just read how Virgin service to/from Holyhead does not even slightly mesh with Stena Line service to/from Holyhead.

If Virgin wants to end service at Chester then doesn't it make sense for ATW to consider reinstating the ancient (not the modern) Irish Mail Holyhead-Euston sleeper service? With some non-sleeper cars in the rake. To actually mesh with Stena Line service.

This is really very little different from Scotrail running sleepers into Euston.

1.VT have to run three Euston/Holyheads minimum, the franchise dictates this.

2.ATW wont run any extra services unless someone else pays,Vt have the rails to London from Holyhead, Vt stopped the early about 2 a.m. service
from Holyhead due to lack of demand off the ferry.
90% plus either fly/take the car from Holyhead /get the coach from Holyhead a sad fact. If ATW ran a service past Crewe it would have to be open access and then VT would block it, Scots sleepers never stopped running,some clause in the franchise demands them.

Bob

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

I fail to see why Holyhead should retain its links and it is one of a number of routes that needs a close rule run over it as it is going to sit as an awful diesel island.

A number of the VT's stop and run back at Bangor. They serve a pretty large population centre along the North Wales coast - Llandudno, Colwyn Bay/Rhos on Sea, Rhyl, Flint......two key tory marginals in there, don't expect any change soon!!

 

[Welshman]

A number of the VT's stop and run back at Bangor. They serve a pretty large population centre along the North Wales coast - Llandudno, Colwyn Bay/Rhos on Sea, Rhyl, Flint......two key tory marginals in there, don't expect any change soon!!

And from my experience, these North Wales services are well-used.

 

[jones_bangor]

Following on from the earlier posts on this, I do wonder whether the electrification from Crewe to Holyhead would be eligible for some EU funding, particularly if there was lobbying by Dublin, Cardiff and London. I think the Dublin lobbying is key here....I've always wondered whether getting a through Holyhead - St Pancras / Paris would, in a "sustainable / green" scenario, ever be a reality? Even join up with HS2, which might make more of a case for Manchester - Holyhead electrification......

 

[tbtc]

A number of the VT's stop and run back at Bangor. They serve a pretty large population centre along the North Wales coast - Llandudno, Colwyn Bay/Rhos on Sea, Rhyl, Flint......two key tory marginals in there, don't expect any change soon!!

Llandudno 14,872

Colwyn Bay 30,269

Rhyl 24,889

Flint 11,936

The four combined are little over the population of Chester (77,040)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Following on from the earlier posts on this, I do wonder whether the electrification from Crewe to Holyhead would be eligible for some EU funding, particularly if there was lobbying by Dublin, Cardiff and London. I think the Dublin lobbying is key here....I've always wondered whether getting a through Holyhead - St Pancras / Paris would, in a "sustainable / green" scenario, ever be a reality? Even join up with HS2, which might make more of a case for Manchester - Holyhead electrification......

It was I that raised the original question on #39 on 31/5/2011 concerning both the ports of Holyhead and Fishguard, which connect Britain with Eire, two members of the European Union. In that posting, I queried the availability of EU finance being made available for transportation links between one member of the European Community to another. I received no reply from forum members upon the questions raised. I thank you for bringing the matter back to the forum, with the additional points that you have stated in your new posting.

 

[WatcherZero]

There are EU funds available for crossborder transport links, I dont know whether split-mode is excluded or not.

 

[jones_bangor]

Llandudno 14,872

Colwyn Bay 30,269

Rhyl 24,889

Flint 11,936

The four combined are little over the population of Chester (77,040)

It's very easy to use figures like that - unfortunately you forget the satellite population centres as well e.g. most people from the rural areas of Gwynedd / Anglesey would use Holyhead / Bangor, Conwy would use LLandudno, Denbs would use Rhyl etc. etc....

The higher population of Chester is reflected in the far higher service frequency by VT in any case!

I do sense you have an issue about North Wales having an intercity service though.

 

[merlodlliw]

It's very easy to use figures like that - unfortunately you forget the satellite population centres as well e.g. most people from the rural areas of Gwynedd / Anglesey would use Holyhead / Bangor, Conwy would use LLandudno, Denbs would use Rhyl etc. etc....

The higher population of Chester is reflected in the far higher service frequency by VT in any case!

I do sense you have an issue about North Wales having an intercity service though.

I don't think he does have an issue, also take Denbighshire, with its two stations at Rhyl & Prestatyn, only those living North of Denbigh use Rhyl,whereas those living south from the County Town of Ruthin & the population of the Dee Valley in Denbighshire use Wrexham General which only as One VT service Mon/Fri, yet its the largest town in North Wales.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

The North Wales coast always had mainline status as it was the link to Ireland (Dublin) from London, add in the tourist trade in the summer months and its was always busy. I'm certain the low cost airline bubble will burst one day and Michael O'Leary (RyanAir) must have skeletons in his cupboard waiting to be found. Its only a matter of time and there could be external factors pushing the lines importance back up.

Talking of population stats Shrewsbury pop. 70,698 plus catchment and Telford - Telford & Wrekin pop 162,300 have no through London service at all.

 

[tbtc]

Talking of population stats Shrewsbury pop. 70,698 plus catchment and Telford - Telford & Wrekin pop 162,300 have no through London service at all.

That's it. Some places with populations of 10,000 get a direct train to London with First Class, some places with bigger populations have no train station in the first place (around 200,000 people live in Dudley - which is bigger than Swansea).

Wrexham is bigger than Bangor, but has one London train a day. Cwmbran/Barry/Rhonda are all bigger again, but have no London trains.

Just trying to put a bit of context into the quote about "pretty large population centre along the North Wales coast"

 

[Gareth Marston]

That's it. Some places with populations of 10,000 get a direct train to London with First Class, some places with bigger populations have no train station in the first place (around 200,000 people live in Dudley - which is bigger than Swansea).

Wrexham is bigger than Bangor, but has one London train a day. Cwmbran/Barry/Rhonda are all bigger again, but have no London trains.

Just trying to put a bit of context into the quote about "pretty large population centre along the North Wales coast"

Quite, I'm told the Swiss have a constitutional right to a certain level of public transport service depending on the population size/ administrative hierarchy of the settlement. If this was applied in the UK.....

 

[jones_bangor]

I don't think he does have an issue, also take Denbighshire, with its two stations at Rhyl & Prestatyn, only those living North of Denbigh use Rhyl,whereas those living south from the County Town of Ruthin & the population of the Dee Valley in Denbighshire use Wrexham General which only as One VT service Mon/Fri, yet its the largest town in North Wales.

Bob

Although this is diverging from the "Infrastructure" theme I agree it's ridiculous that Shrewsbury has no direct London train - shame on DB / WSMR for "blocking" Virgin from running a service from there, and then having the face to pull out at minimal notice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's it. Some places with populations of 10,000 get a direct train to London with First Class, some places with bigger populations have no train station in the first place (around 200,000 people live in Dudley - which is bigger than Swansea).

Wrexham is bigger than Bangor, but has one London train a day. Cwmbran/Barry/Rhonda are all bigger again, but have no London trains.

Just trying to put a bit of context into the quote about "pretty large population centre along the North Wales coast"

I agree if there were no Ireland link to consider...but there is.

So you may as well as think in terms of Chester - Flint - Prestatyn - Rhyl - Colwyn Bay - Llandudno - Bangor - Holyhead and DUBLIN!

 

[The Planner]

Although this is diverging from the "Infrastructure" theme I agree it's ridiculous that Shrewsbury has no direct London train - shame on DB / WSMR for "blocking" Virgin from running a service from there, and then having the face to pull out at minimal notice.

I hope you have a big net, you are going to catch some whoppers there....

 

[bluenoxid]

Quite, I'm told the Swiss have a constitutional right to a certain level of public transport service depending on the population size/ administrative hierarchy of the settlement. If this was applied in the UK.....

Then North Wales would almost certainly lose its rail service to the English capital.

 

[jones_bangor]

Then North Wales would almost certainly lose its rail service to the English capital.

London is the capital of the UK as well. :roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

Switzerland is also a federated country made up of 26 independent states with each responsible for their own healthcare, economy, army, education, etc. In this kind of system an organised national rail system would have to be prescribed in federal law.

 

[cymro inside]

one of the reasons Crewe to Chester is being electrified is that demand for first class travel from Chester is at an all time high(vt are more than pleased with the present revenue they are taking) a change to pendos would mean a step change in the first class product(meals are far better for example) assuming a raised line speed between Chester and Crewe it ought to be possible to reach London in 1 hour and 50 mins,Chester is a goldmine!.. quite similar to York . atw will never give up the paths between Chester and Crewe.

 

[merlodlliw]

one of the reasons Crewe to Chester is being electrified is that demand for first class travel from Chester is at an all time high(vt are more than pleased with the present revenue they are taking) a change to pendos would mean a step change in the first class product(meals are far better for example) assuming a raised line speed between Chester and Crewe it ought to be possible to reach London in 1 hour and 50 mins,Chester is a goldmine!.. quite similar to York . atw will never give up the paths between Chester and Crewe.

Amazing how times change, with Chester now a semi commuter run to London along with Manchester

Bob

 

[cle]

one of the reasons Crewe to Chester is being electrified is that demand for first class travel from Chester is at an all time high(vt are more than pleased with the present revenue they are taking) a change to pendos would mean a step change in the first class product(meals are far better for example) assuming a raised line speed between Chester and Crewe it ought to be possible to reach London in 1 hour and 50 mins,Chester is a goldmine!.. quite similar to York . atw will never give up the paths between Chester and Crewe.

I take this a few times a year, and am stunned by how popular it is. It's hard to imagine a time when services weren't hourly. Even in first, it's very busy. I imagine tourism is up in Chester now too - it's a great place to visit. Wish they'd do more race events! You only get about 2 Saturdays a year!

I do think that this train could stop once or twice more though - it cover cover off both Watford Junction and Nuneaton maybe - giving them both quick connections to Crewe, from where trains can be caught to anywhere. Although ideally I'd like Watford served on a Manchester via Crewe train, covering both off.

The section from Crewe to Chester is already relatively swift considering how curvy it is - I can't imagine wires would knock off 10 minutes (50%!) but maybe 2-3. In terms of stock, they need to order some (standard class) carriages with pans for the Super Voyagers and job done. Pendos are too much train for this route.

 

[pablo]

Until two and a half years ago Pendos were the standard stock on this route, and they were similarly popular. I've been commuting weekly on and off for five years. Virgin likes me! That's why the electrification is going ahead. No other reason.
It's such an obvious bit of infill, it's a no-brainer. No more stops please; I'd not catch my connection at St. P. Puff, puff.

 

[cymro inside]

a pendo would knock at least 4 mins off Euston to Crewe. It will be interesting to see if the line speed will be upped from 90 between Chester and Crewe,if it is then a journey time of 16 mins ought to be possible between the two(it takes at least 45 mins by road) I wonder if anyone has noticed how expensive the journey is between the two, at 10 quid for 21 miles it seems quite dear for a day return!.

 

[merlodlliw]

Until two and a half years ago Pendos were the standard stock on this route, and they were similarly popular. I've been commuting weekly on and off for five years. Virgin likes me! That's why the electrification is going ahead. No other reason.
It's such an obvious bit of infill, it's a no-brainer. No more stops please; I'd not catch my connection at St. P. Puff, puff.

Yes, SWMBO used to catch a pendo to London from Chester at around 7.00 or so a few years ago. One forgets the Pendos replaced the HSTs,the usual problems effected this drag,on one occasion there were no lights in the carriages into Chester,SWMBO said they were stuck in Crewe for 40 minutes due to electrics failing.


What a change now from three HSTs,which replaced 6 loco hauled ready for selling off, I also recall BR tried to route the HSTs to St Pancras & add extra time, however the usual organised outrage from us soon stopped that idea.



Bob

 

[cle]

a pendo would knock at least 4 mins off Euston to Crewe. It will be interesting to see if the line speed will be upped from 90 between Chester and Crewe,if it is then a journey time of 16 mins ought to be possible between the two(it takes at least 45 mins by road) I wonder if anyone has noticed how expensive the journey is between the two, at 10 quid for 21 miles it seems quite dear for a day return!.

Ahh yes I was only thinking of the final stretch! The non-stops to Crewe are timetabled at 1h30 on the nose, in which case 1h50 to Chester is certainly possible - or 1h55 with the MK stop - still enabling sub-2hour marketing, surely the aim here.

 

[merlodlliw]

Ahh yes I was only thinking of the final stretch! The non-stops to Crewe are timetabled at 1h30 on the nose, in which case 1h50 to Chester is certainly possible - or 1h55 with the MK stop - still enabling sub-2hour marketing, surely the aim here.

Vt did market a train in under two hours, a couple years or so ago, one still does it in under two hours now.
Why would a pendo be quicker to Crewe than a voyager, quicker pick up of speed? or new track

Bob

 

[cle]

I would imagine better acceleration (although they are longer) due to being electric and not lugging that fuel around. Although the difference is more marked with the more stops a service has - for instance the Cardiff HSTs which stop every 15 mins after Reading...hence the savings touted for those!

Here the Pendo non-stop is 7 mins faster than the Super Voyager with a stop at MK - which must add 4-5 mins.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are several places on the WCML with differential EPS speed limits for Pendolinos and Voyagers because of the different maximum tilt capability (9 degrees versus 6 I think). eg Weedon is signed 100/110/120 with non-tilt on 100, Voyagers on 110 and Pendos on 120. Similarly at Berkhamsted and Rugby and elsewhere. Marginal but they add up.

Chester Voyagers also seem to have some recovery time before Crewe. You would expect a 94/95-min trip from Euston with the MK stop with a Pendo, but they are allowed 99. If you stand at Crewe and watch the nn07 Euston-Liverpool run through (also with one stop, at Stafford) at about nn42, there's a definite gap before the nn10 Voyager shows up for Chester at nn49.

 

[pablo]

You only have to compare the 1333 Lancaster FO Voyager with the 1340 Man Pic Pendo to see the performance difference. Both NS to Crewe. One overtakes the other around Rugeley. I guess it's deliberate timetabling but if the Voyager was up to it there'd be no need to do the switch. Arr at Crewe 1511 and 1519 respectively. Mind you the V is often early and the P late!