Crewe-Chester electrification

[Gareth Marston]

Hmm, XC suffer from lack of capacity on almost every service they run.

Virgin have 21 Voyagers (set up as twenty sets, plus a couple of spare cabs) that could be easily moved to XC.

If you wire up the short distance between Crewe and Chester (and give up on direct Holyhead services) then these twenty one Voyagers can go where they are better needed - additional 390s required for Virgin.

Simple.

robbing Peter to pay Paul... how about coming up with something that addresses the national UK wide issue of shortage of rolling stock?

 

[jones_bangor]

robbing Peter to pay Paul... how about coming up with something that addresses the national UK wide issue of shortage of rolling stock?

XC's shortage of stock should be addressed, in my humble opinion, by deploying the displaced mk3's from the IEP programme to the XC routes.

 

[tbtc]

robbing Peter to pay Paul... how about coming up with something that addresses the national UK wide issue of shortage of rolling stock?

The railways have always robbed Peter to pay Paul.

One of the best ways to address the lack of rolling stock is to electrify lines (since ROSCOs/ DFT are reluctant to fund new DMUs), then use the DMUs "spared" elsewhere...

...but electrifying lines then continuing to run DMUs long distance under the wires undermines that.

 

[jones_bangor]

The railways have always robbed Peter to pay Paul.

One of the best ways to address the lack of rolling stock is to electrify lines (since ROSCOs/ DFT are reluctant to fund new DMUs), then use the DMUs "spared" elsewhere...

...but electrifying lines then continuing to run DMUs long distance under the wires undermines that.

But those DMU's were designed, if one were to think about it, for running under wires.....which non-electrified routes have 125 mph linespeed apart from GWML?

The Virgin HF model always had North Wales as a Voyager route......just like most Edinburgh trains.

I'm sorry, I just think you have a BIG problem with North Wales being on the IC network. Don't know why, but you do.

 

[The Planner]

Derby Brum is 125 without wires, as will parts of the MML in a few years.

 

[bluenoxid]

Mmmmm. Ok......

So you say branch line,

I say, International rail route connecting Ireland with the rest of Europe.....

.....mmmmmmmm, maybe someone needs a geography lesson?

Yes, the tertiary route from Ireland to Europe after the plane and the car/ferry.

Its hard to be black/white about "mainline"/"branchline" (in the way its hard to do the same about what "Intercity" is.

But if Chester - Holyhead is a main line (doesn't serve anywhere very big, but does link to a port) then is the same true of Ayr - Stranraer or Carmarthen - Fishguard?

With the growth of flights, there are fewer and fewer people taking the train to Holyhead and boarding the ferry to Ireland, which I guess means the line has lost importance. And, its a bad time to lose importance, given the increase in the London - Chester market (meaning a case can be made for electrifying only to Chester, and cutting the Holyhead link, which would have been unthinkable twenty years ago)

I agree the importance of the Irish link has receded in recent years, but this does not make it any less important - IT IS the rail link between London and Ireland.

Figures from http://www.seat61.com:

Plane: London to Dublin 4 hours, 174.8 Kg/CO2
Train: 8 hours by train & ferry, 46.8 Kg/CO2

Electrifying to Chester makes sense because of passenger numbers, a frequent Voyager service is perfectly adequate for North Wales. I think the focus should be on linespeed at the moment, to hack away at that 8 hours figure above.

A sad reflection of how rail has lost out to air over the last couple of decades - not just on this route, but all over UK / Europe.

Only on the really long distance or really difficult terrain routes. Rail is now winning back. Rail can win on this route but with the issues that ferrys can have, there needs to be a realistic option. Holyhead to London can be made two or three trains per day with XC providing the trains from their fleet. The fleet can then be standardised on the North Wales route to flex in such a way that they can pick additional people up. How brilliant it would be to have the ability to leave spare carriages at Holyhead waiting for passengers to arrive if the ferry is late arriving.

 

[merlodlliw]

How brilliant it would be to have the ability to leave spare carriages at Holyhead waiting for passengers to arrive if the ferry is late arriving.[/QUOTE] bluenose.

Its only a short 60 mile sea trip, it is rare the ferries run late(Irish Giant)
Personally if there was spare stock, in the three month peak, it would be better used on the Domestic market.Hundreds are put off by overcrowding.

Anyhow for now XC is the same firm as ATW, of which I dont see XC or others being allowed in by ATW/VT & its successors or the WAG.As for open access
ATW has got it sown up,

Bob

 

[tbtc]

But those DMU's were designed, if one were to think about it, for running under wires.....which non-electrified routes have 125 mph linespeed apart from GWML?

The Virgin HF model always had North Wales as a Voyager route......just like most Edinburgh trains.

I'm sorry, I just think you have a BIG problem with North Wales being on the IC network. Don't know why, but you do.

When the train from London gets to Chester it could go one of three ways.

To the left is Wrexham, largest town in North Wales (68,000).

To the right is the Wirral peninsula (312,293 lived in the Metropolitan Borough of Wirral at the 2001 census)

Straight on is the North Wales Coast, where the biggest place is still only half the size of Wrexham.

Yeah, there’s the ferry to Ireland, but the same could be said of Pembroke/ Fishguard; they only get a token London service. What London service do the port-towns of Stranraer or Heysham get?

At the moment Bangor has six direct trains to/from London a day; than Pembroke, Fishguard, Wrexham (the Wirral peninsula has none).

So, in the circumstances (and considering that XC are desperate for more Voyagers to add capacity to their crowded routes), can you justify six trains a day from London to the North Wales coast?

As I said earlier on the thread, I’m in favour of retaining some direct service to Holyhead, but this could be worked by a London – West Midlands – Telford – Shrewsbury – Wrexham – Holyhead service (either stopping at New Street in place of an ATW Birmingham – Shrewsbury service, or running via Walsall as Virgin wanted, since its 174,994 population have no London service either).

You could run the existing early morning service from Birmingham (currently 05.30) to Holyhead, do a return trip to London then back to Birmingham (current service arrives at 22.50). That way the Voyager can be maintained at Central Rivers by XC, run “on hire” to Virgin and swapped daily with other XC units.

 

[cymro inside]

tbtc-what a simplistic world it is to just quote population figures for particular towns,once again you fail to mention the other factors,Bangor for example is the fourth (well equal fourth with Carwyntown) largest revenue generating station in Wales for many reasons- catchment area,large student population,ease of access to railway station and many green minded people who choose train over car. Bangor has six through trains a day to London for a reason,they are well used,if they were not well used they would,nt be running!

 

[tbtc]

tbtc-what a simplistic world it is to just quote population figures for particular towns,once again you fail to mention the other factors,Bangor for example is the fourth (well equal fourth with Carwyntown) largest revenue generating station in Wales for many reasons- catchment area,large student population,ease of access to railway station and many green minded people who choose train over car. Bangor has six through trains a day to London for a reason,they are well used,if they were not well used they would,nt be running!

Its supply and demand. Bangor has a half hourly service to Chester and an hourly service to Manchester. Wrexham has an hourly service to Chester and no Manchester service. The fact that Bangor gets more passengers than Wrexham is a "no brainer" given the service it receives. If you gave Wrexham a direct Manchester service, if you doubled the service from Wrexham to Chester then of course more people would use the train.

A lot of lines get better services than they really need, often because of a historical hangover (the frequency from London to North Wales is because of the old Ferry trade, which obviously isn't there in the same numbers today), or because of franchise commitments to maintain a certain level of service.

Bangor has a student population, but then so does Aberystwyth (no trains to London), so does Huddersfield (no trains to London), so does Edge Hill (no trains to London), so does St Andrews (no trains for decades).

I'm not saying fewer trains to Bangor, I'm just saying that if the line is electrified from London to Chester (where half the Virgin services currently terminate) then it seems a waste running diesel trains that far under the wires when XC are crying out for Voyagers.

Its not the only example, I've had the same argument about Manchester - Windermere - electrifying a line and then running diesels long distances under the wires defeats the point of electrification and means that other routes don't get the (cascaded) benefits

 

[jones_bangor]

Its supply and demand. Bangor has a half hourly service to Chester and an hourly service to Manchester. Wrexham has an hourly service to Chester and no Manchester service. The fact that Bangor gets more passengers than Wrexham is a "no brainer" given the service it receives. If you gave Wrexham a direct Manchester service, if you doubled the service from Wrexham to Chester then of course more people would use the train.

Isn't that a strange logic - there's a good demand for this service, so let's trash the service to suppress demand so that a new service for a hypothetical demand can be created!? Isn't it the case that people from Wrexham just drive to Crewe and catch the train from there!?

A lot of lines get better services than they really need, often because of a historical hangover (the frequency from London to North Wales is because of the old Ferry trade, which obviously isn't there in the same numbers today), or because of franchise commitments to maintain a certain level of service.

Bangor has a student population, but then so does Aberystwyth (no trains to London), so does Huddersfield (no trains to London), so does Edge Hill (no trains to London), so does St Andrews (no trains for decades).

I'm not saying fewer trains to Bangor, I'm just saying that if the line is electrified from London to Chester (where half the Virgin services currently terminate) then it seems a waste running diesel trains that far under the wires when XC are crying out for Voyagers.

I just don't get what your point is. It seems to be some kind of "race to the bottom" argument. Super Voyagers are designed for 125mph running on the tilt enabled WCML - what's the point in running them on other routes where the tilt will be locked out and their speed limited? The WCML is highly dependent on Voyagers for capacity throughout its length - and the money isn't there for more Pendolinos. What we will see IF Chester is electrified, is more Pendolinos on the Chester only services, maybe some more drags, but Voyagers on the rest i.e. the through services and the Chester splits.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Straight on is the North Wales Coast, where the biggest place is still only half the size of Wrexham....To the right is the Wirral peninsula (312,293 lived in the Metropolitan Borough of Wirral at the 2001 census)

Population figures for North Wales counties:
Isle of Anglesey 68,800
Gwynedd 118,600
Conwy 111,400
Denbighshire 96,700
Flintshire 149,700
Wrexham 132,700

Bangor has a student population, but then so does Aberystwyth (no trains to London),.....than Pembroke, Fishguard,

Ceredigion 76,800
Pembrokeshire 117,600

Nothing like "selected" statistics?

 

[Welshman]

Its supply and demand. Bangor has a half hourly service to Chester and an hourly service to Manchester.

Actually, Bangor has roughly an hourly service to Chester and no direct service generally to Manchester. You have to change at Chester instead.

Also, I'm afraid I'm not sure the point you are making when you seem to imply that Bangor[with a university] should not have through services to London because Huddersfield and Edge Hill don't either!

Bangor is in a different situation to Huddersfield and Edge Hill. Huddersfield has a service every 15 minutes to Leeds, taking approx. 20 minutes and an EC every 30 minutes to London from there, plus an hourly service to Wakefield Westgate to connect with London trains. Edge Hill may not have a through service to London, but the next station down the line, Liverpool Lime St [5 mins away] certainly does! But take the Londons away from Bangor and it's a 60-mile trip on an often full 2car [3 if you're lucky] dmu to Chester - the nearest place you could then get a London service.

 

[merlodlliw]

Isn't it the case that people from Wrexham just drive to Crewe and catch the train from there!? quote Jones/Bangor

Sorry Mr Jones, your above quote shows you have not a clue about Wrexham
travel, 95% travel to London from Chester, where on earth did you dig up Crewe,








Population figures for North Wales counties:
Isle of Anglesey 68,800
Gwynedd 118,600
Conwy 111,400
Denbighshire 96,700
Flintshire 149,700
Wrexham 132,700

Wrexham is the largest Populated County town in North Wales with the smallest acreage. A third of Denbighshires population are nearer to Wrexhams five stations than Rhyl or Prestatyn.





Nothing like "selected" statistics?[/QUOTE]

Nothing selected about the size & population of Wrexham town or its County.

 

[cle]

Population size doesn't correlate to demand. It's a lot more complex - what business is located there? What is the economy like? What are the roads like, and the bus services?
What tourist attractions are there? Is there student demand? Is the town insular or quite outward-looking, culturally?
Is it a railhead for a wider area? Is it a regional shopping centre? Or a civic/administrative centre?

There are a lot of variables. Look at Bradford. Big place, terrible economy, no demand, London trains empty. Population figures are only a small part.

I think the North Wales coast is definitely a mainline route, and needs to stay as such.

 

[jones_bangor]

Isn't it the case that people from Wrexham just drive to Crewe and catch the train from there!?

Sorry Mr Jones, your above quote shows you have not a clue about Wrexham

Actually it happens (anecdotal, personal experience). More frequent trains and only c. 20 mins more driving. I do actually know Wrexham well, mainly professionally - I don't live there granted, but still have a right to my views.

Nothing selected about the size & population of Wrexham town or its County.

I'm not trying to do Wrexham down - clearly, unlike a certain poster who believes North Wales only deserves a shuttle service west of Chester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Isn't it the case that people from Wrexham just drive to Crewe and catch the train from there!?

What about the people who are not fortunate enough to own a car? Are you saying that there are fast direct bus links from Wrexham to Crewe...and vice-versa?

 

[merlodlliw]

What about the people who are not fortunate enough to own a car? Are you saying that there are fast direct bus links from Wrexham to Crewe...and vice-versa?

No bus links to Crewe, I think Mr Jones of Bangor may well have had a Company car, he is of course entitled to his opinion, but the majority have always gone via Chester, the timings may well be correct 20 minutes longer by car, Chester is a nightmare with traffic, It can take an hour between 0700 & 0900 to travel by car Wrexham to Chester 12 miles. Thats why we need more trains, not the dam every 12 minutes bus Wrexham to Chester Station even with bus lanes, its slow.

 

[jones_bangor]

What about the people who are not fortunate enough to own a car? Are you saying that there are fast direct bus links from Wrexham to Crewe...and vice-versa?

Mmmmm, well I'd walk to the station in that case (Wrexham - not Crewe!)