Crewe-Chester electrification

[jones_bangor]

If this all happens, looks like the loco-hauled Pendolino's will be making more frequent visits to North Wales.

Unless the electrification of Voyagers becomes a reality.

I am wondering whether a Holyhead - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Euston Voyager route may happen - particularly for daytime services? With a couple of "fast" Pendos on the Hoyhead - Crewe - Euston route in the morning / evening? This would be in addition to a fast Chester - Crewe - Euston Pendo service - hourly apart from the Holyhead Pendos?

 

[The Planner]

Id bet on the drags ending completely when this goes ahead as they probably are not a requirement in the 2012 franchise spec.

 

[tbtc]

Id bet on the drags ending completely when this goes ahead as they probably are not a requirement in the 2012 franchise spec.

...are you suggesting there wouldn't be the same requirement to serve Holyhead?

 

[The Planner]

I think there is a lot more free reign in it yes, and given the choice would you do it if you didnt have to ?? I bet Virgin consider it a right pain in the backside to do.

 

[Nym]

Well the way I see it, theres 3 or 4 options:

Electrify Crewe - Chester...

Pendos run to Chester and get draged by 57s from chester
Pendos run to Chester, timetable re-cast so that Holyheads are run by voyagers (that could be EDed and extended by ICWC)
Pendos run to Chester and get dragged by a new type of loco, DVTable from the 390s, would save tunarounds at Holyhead and Bangor / Llandudno
Do nothing.

With a bit of a re-cast the ICWC 221 fleet could be reduced to 6 or 7 units, but if a new, better loco to pull it could be sourced, with DVTability then it would be best to have all 390s and the locos out on T-Bird and hauls from Chester.

 

[merlodlliw]

If this all happens, looks like the loco-hauled Pendolino's will be making more frequent visits to North Wales.

Unless the electrification of Voyagers becomes a reality.

I am wondering whether a Holyhead - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Euston Voyager route may happen - particularly for daytime services? With a couple of "fast" Pendos on the Hoyhead - Crewe - Euston route in the morning / evening? This would be in addition to a fast Chester - Crewe - Euston Pendo service - hourly apart from the Holyhead Pendos?

Routing via Dee/Seven would add an hour to the journey, I dont see the drag after Chester is wired, I am sure politics will see a token VT into Shrewsbury,but then that's another drag,
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...are you suggesting there wouldn't be the same requirement to serve Holyhead?

I think he is suggesting this,

 

[tbtc]

I think there is a lot more free reign in it yes, and given the choice would you do it if you didnt have to ?? I bet Virgin consider it a right pain in the backside to do.

I can see that the obligation to serve Holyhead must be a bit of a "drag" for Virgin (if you'll pardon the terrible pun); it's roughly two hours from London to Chester and a further two hours from Chester to Holyhead - the unit would obviously make a lot more money turning back and running to London (and thats without considering the problems of dragging a 390/ running a diesel all that way under the wires).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Routing via Dee/Seven would add an hour to the journey

At least that'd be one way of serving Shrewsbury, Wrexham and Holyhead with one London train, which would minimise the number of diesels under the wires. Plus you could run it in the path of ATW Birmingham International - Holyhead services, ensuring that no local trains need to get mucked about to slot it in (in the way that one Holyhead - Birmingham International has had to be diverted via Crewe to slot "Gerald Two" through Wrexham)

 

[jones_bangor]

Pendos run to Chester and get dragged by a new type of loco, DVTable from the 390s, would save tunarounds at Holyhead and Bangor / Llandudno

Class 67? The class 57s reliability seems to be an issue on the current Saturday drag in any case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At least that'd be one way of serving Shrewsbury, Wrexham and Holyhead with one London train, which would minimise the number of diesels under the wires. Plus you could run it in the path of ATW Birmingham International - Holyhead services, ensuring that no local trains need to get mucked about to slot it in (in the way that one Holyhead - Birmingham International has had to be diverted via Crewe to slot "Gerald Two" through Wrexham)

I was only talking really of daytime "outside peak" runs. Virgin could compensate for the hour by offering cheap fares....this might be a driver to increase linespeed from Chester - Shrewsbury in any case, which I'm sure could be increased significantly with suitable investment.

 

[The Informer]

Class 67? The class 57s reliability seems to be an issue on the current Saturday drag in any case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I was only talking really of daytime "outside peak" runs. Virgin could compensate for the hour by offering cheap fares....this might be a driver to increase linespeed from Chester - Shrewsbury in any case, which I'm sure could be increased significantly with suitable investment.

Erm yeah! Significant being the word!

 

[merlodlliw]

I can see that the obligation to serve Holyhead must be a bit of a "drag" for Virgin (if you'll pardon the terrible pun); it's roughly two hours from London to Chester and a further two hours from Chester to Holyhead - the unit would obviously make a lot more money turning back and running to London (and thats without considering the problems of dragging a 390/ running a diesel all that way under the wires).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


At least that'd be one way of serving Shrewsbury, Wrexham and Holyhead with one London train, which would minimise the number of diesels under the wires. Plus you could run it in the path of ATW Birmingham International - Holyhead services, ensuring that no local trains need to get mucked about to slot it in (in the way that one Holyhead - Birmingham International has had to be diverted via Crewe to slot "Gerald Two" through Wrexham)

I am sure ATW would be delighted to offer a path,if it was Chester to Shrewsbury, however ATW would need stock to replace the 0700 VT
to Chester,this train terminates at Wrexham then goes onto the Bidston run,
the evening connector at Chester is no problem as a 150 idles in Wrexham
ex W/S bays for well over an hour awaiting the VT.

No one from the Wrexham area would take a VT via Shrewsbury to London,
and add an hour, if its the same price as Chester/London.

Bob

 

[bluenoxid]

Other options are to hand the route to a XC/West Coast partnership, where XC provide the stock and West Coast provide the crews. Nothing wrong with providing a token service as long as it does not result in stupidly small allocations of DMU's.

Personally, I think that the people of Holyhead would be happy with a token service of 2 each way per day.

 

[jones_bangor]

Other options are to hand the route to a XC/West Coast partnership, where XC provide the stock and West Coast provide the crews. Nothing wrong with providing a token service as long as it does not result in stupidly small allocations of DMU's.

Personally, I think that the people of Holyhead would be happy with a token service of 2 each way per day.

I'm afraid you're making a very big, and incorrect, assumption there!!

 

[bluenoxid]

However, with a service boost on their branch (which is what it is), they can gain with enhanced connections to the rest of the country.

 

[merlodlliw]

However, with a service boost on their branch (which is what it is), they can gain with enhanced connections to the rest of the country.

Are you saying in your opinion the line from Chester to Holyhead is a branch line?

Bob

 

[WatcherZero]

Are you saying in your opinion the line from Chester to Holyhead is a branch line?

Bob

It is from most peoples perspective and at least as far as Virgin is concerned. NR only recategorised it as part of the WCML three or four years ago didnt they?

 

[merlodlliw]

It is from most peoples perspective and at least as far as Virgin is concerned. NR only recategorised it as part of the WCML three or four years ago didnt they?

Interesting, even though VT have built a servicing centre at Holyhead for its voyagers,


Bob

 

[WatcherZero]

End of the line, they built a servicing centre in Liverpool when their trains stopped there and closed it when they stopped.

 

[jones_bangor]

However, with a service boost on their branch (which is what it is), they can gain with enhanced connections to the rest of the country.

Mmmmm. Ok......

So you say branch line,

I say, International rail route connecting Ireland with the rest of Europe.....

.....mmmmmmmm, maybe someone needs a geography lesson?

 

[lancastrian]

Mmmmm. Ok......

So you say branch line,

I say, International rail route connecting Ireland with the rest of Europe.....

.....mmmmmmmm, maybe someone needs a geography lesson?

It was built for that purpose, and for years it still has been. In any sensably run rail system, this line would have been electrified years ago.

Certainly NOT a branch line.

 

[tbtc]

Mmmmm. Ok......

So you say branch line,

I say, International rail route connecting Ireland with the rest of Europe.....

.....mmmmmmmm, maybe someone needs a geography lesson?

Is Lancaster - Heysham a main line?

 

[lancastrian]

Is Lancaster - Heysham a main line?

Not now, but it was a secondary main line.

Techincally when the Midland Railway was still an independent company, they used to say that their mainline ran from Leeds to Bristol, with branches to London & Carlisle. They must have been the only railway company that considered London to be on a Branch line!

It all depends upon your point of view. To me if if a line either conects large cities or towns, or even conects the same to a major port, then they are a mainline. For the Taff Vale railway, the Cardiff to Merthyr was their main line, today just a branch line.

 

[WatcherZero]

Isnt by its very definition a branch line a secondary line which serves a market away from your primary routes?

 

[tbtc]

Not now, but it was a secondary main line.

Techincally when the Midland Railway was still an independent company, they used to say that their mainline ran from Leeds to Bristol, with branches to London & Carlisle. They must have been the only railway company that considered London to be on a Branch line!

It all depends upon your point of view. To me if if a line either conects large cities or towns, or even conects the same to a major port, then they are a mainline. For the Taff Vale railway, the Cardiff to Merthyr was their main line, today just a branch line.

Its hard to be black/white about "mainline"/"branchline" (in the way its hard to do the same about what "Intercity" is.

But if Chester - Holyhead is a main line (doesn't serve anywhere very big, but does link to a port) then is the same true of Ayr - Stranraer or Carmarthen - Fishguard?

With the growth of flights, there are fewer and fewer people taking the train to Holyhead and boarding the ferry to Ireland, which I guess means the line has lost importance. And, its a bad time to lose importance, given the increase in the London - Chester market (meaning a case can be made for electrifying only to Chester, and cutting the Holyhead link, which would have been unthinkable twenty years ago)

 

[jones_bangor]

With the growth of flights, there are fewer and fewer people taking the train to Holyhead and boarding the ferry to Ireland, which I guess means the line has lost importance. And, its a bad time to lose importance, given the increase in the London - Chester market (meaning a case can be made for electrifying only to Chester, and cutting the Holyhead link, which would have been unthinkable twenty years ago)

I agree the importance of the Irish link has receded in recent years, but this does not make it any less important - IT IS the rail link between London and Ireland.

Figures from http://www.seat61.com:

Plane: London to Dublin 4 hours, 174.8 Kg/CO2
Train: 8 hours by train & ferry, 46.8 Kg/CO2

Electrifying to Chester makes sense because of passenger numbers, a frequent Voyager service is perfectly adequate for North Wales. I think the focus should be on linespeed at the moment, to hack away at that 8 hours figure above.

A sad reflection of how rail has lost out to air over the last couple of decades - not just on this route, but all over UK / Europe.

 

[Holly]

...
Plane: London to Dublin 4 hours, 174.8 Kg/CO2
Train: 8 hours by train & ferry, 46.8 Kg/CO2
...

A huge number of people don't do either of those though, they use car & ferry, driving from Holyhead or Merseyside.

Because the price of liquid fuel is highly unpredictable in the long term it is important to keep a good train service going. Though change of trains at Chester looks increasingly likely, so if done it should be done well. This includes guaranteed holding of onward trains (in both directions) for late arrivals as the price to pay for segmentation.

Perhaps ATW should look into the possibility of a modern motorail link Holyhead to somewhere in England. The Chunnel shows that cars on trains can be made to work if done right.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I've said it on here before and we've seen with the ash cloud that numbers are potentiality there- and that the low cost airline bubble will burst one day and foot passengers on the ferry will return.

Up until sectorisation BR recognized that InterCity trains often provided seating capacity in excess of the normal service on secondary or branch lines at peak times hence the InterCity train wasn't just about through trips to London. We see this today on the North Wales line, ATW generally have 2 car 158 or 175's on the route with occasional use of 3 car 175 sets. Hence why the suggestion that stopping Virgin at Chester and letting ATW run west of there is pretty silly- ATW don't have the resources to carry the passenger numbers.

I was reading an article recently about the withdrawal of InterCity from Shrewsbury in the early 90's. The peak hour train into Birmingham from Salop was a InterCity service to London- full length West Coast MK2 set. The replacement was a 2 car 158- it was grossly overcrowded the first 2 weeks then customers disappeared and revenue on the Wolverhampton to Salop line fell and it needed more subsidy.

 

[jones_bangor]

Hence why the suggestion that stopping Virgin at Chester and letting ATW run west of there is pretty silly- ATW don't have the resources to carry the passenger numbers.

I was reading an article recently about the withdrawal of InterCity from Shrewsbury in the early 90's. The peak hour train into Birmingham from Salop was a InterCity service to London- full length West Coast MK2 set. The replacement was a 2 car 158- it was grossly overcrowded the first 2 weeks then customers disappeared and revenue on the Wolverhampton to Salop line fell and it needed more subsidy.

Absolutely right - the current arrangement with Euston - Holyhead's is a 2 x Voyager as far as Chester, where the first car heads down the coast for Holyhead. ATW don't have the capacity or the trains.

I don't see what the issue is about Voyagers running under the wires, when it's common practice on Brum - Scots services. Chester electrification would mean that the Chester only services could be Pendolino (as well as some peak Holyheads that could be hauled).....

Shrewsbury could clearly support an IC service - I've said it earlier, it's a shame that people trusted WSMR and saw Virgin as the interlopper - Shrewsbury would be enjoying IC links now had their proposals gone ahead.

 

[merlodlliw]

A huge number of people don't do either of those though, they use car & ferry, driving from Holyhead or Merseyside.

Because the price of liquid fuel is highly unpredictable in the long term it is important to keep a good train service going. Though change of trains at Chester looks increasingly likely, so if done it should be done well. This includes guaranteed holding of onward trains (in both directions) for late arrivals as the price to pay for segmentation.

Perhaps ATW should look into the possibility of a modern motorail link Holyhead to somewhere in England. The Chunnel shows that cars on trains can be made to work if done right.

But who will pay ATW to run a motor rail link out of Wales, ATW wont pay

Bob

 

[tbtc]

I don't see what the issue is about Voyagers running under the wires, when it's common practice on Brum - Scots services

Hmm, XC suffer from lack of capacity on almost every service they run.

Virgin have 21 Voyagers (set up as twenty sets, plus a couple of spare cabs) that could be easily moved to XC.

If you wire up the short distance between Crewe and Chester (and give up on direct Holyhead services) then these twenty one Voyagers can go where they are better needed - additional 390s required for Virgin.

Simple.

 

[jones_bangor]

If you wire up the short distance between Crewe and Chester (and give up on direct Holyhead services) then these twenty one Voyagers can go where they are better needed - additional 390s required for Virgin.

Simple.

Simple....but fantasy.

Ain't going to happen in a month of Sunday's!

Why would Virgin want to give up Holyhead in any case? I'm sorry, but I wonder if you've ever been to North Wales or realise where you're talking about.