Crisis at Bus Eireann

[Teflon Lettuce]

You mean the taxpayer funded bus service might actually start to be run in a cost effective way for the taxpayer rather than one that allows staff to spend little more than half their working day driving then claim overtime and then come out with 60 grand at the end of the year?

The unions would have a lot better point if they made some effort to help the company but refusing to use fuel saving technology and other systems. I also just read that if a driver is scheduled for overtime and he is sick he still gets paid overtime!!! Thet is crazy stuff.

There's also stuff about inspectors acting up for a day getting paid the higher rate for a whole week and bus drivers refusing to fuel buses and not taking them out if nobody else is around to fuel then because they claim it's not their job or do any quick walk through cleans between buses and they are refusing to do first use checks without extra money saying it's also not their job.

The terms and condition do certainly seem to be crazy... I am assuming that Irish PSV law is very similar to UK law due to their common ancestry... so how comes drivers aren't being sacked for refusing to do their first use checks? surely it is a legal requirement for them to do so?

I will say though, that I have every sympathy for the Union's position on the AMOUNT of pay they should get. as long as they are working efficient schedules... after all 60000 euros equates to approx 25/hr based on a 45 hr week... considering that bus drivers are constantly told that they are professionals it is right that they are paid as such... as I have said on other threads... would you employ a lawyer or doctor that was only charging 10 euros an hour for their services? you wouldn't have much confidence in their ability would you?

Much of the problems, as I see them, are due to poor management. Management KNOW how much the overtime situation costs so why are their budgets not calculated according to what they KNOW the situation to be rather than what they would LIKE it to be? Why not make sure that any agreement they get with the Union on working practices enforced rigorously?

 

[F Great Eastern]

The regular working week is 40 hours all driving staff on that but staff are working almost one and a half hours overtime every day due to rotas that are not efficent and do not maximise driving time for contracted hours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The regular working week is 40 hours all driving staff on that but staff are working almost one and a half hours overtime every day due to rotas that are not efficent and do not maximise driving time for contracted hours.

That and all the other things discussed show a tremendous waste of money.

I'm a fan of well-managed public operations (think Lothian), but if it is *that* bad if I was the Irish Government I would be seriously considering privatisation and either tendering or total deregulation (probably the former).

 

[TUC]

Irish labour laws are fine thanks.


y.

Not if they allow secondary action.

 

[DT611]

if I was the Irish Government I would be seriously considering privatisation and either tendering or total deregulation (probably the former).

You would have a fight on your hands as there is little support for privatization in any form in ireland. the irish people want public services to remain public.

Not if they allow secondary action.

There is no secondary action as the companies involved are all under the 1 umbrella company, and wish to show solidarity with their fellow workers. For what it's worth i think all sides at bus eireann need to sit down and talk rather then there being a strike, as each day that goes by is a wasted opportunity for talking and solving the issues. Hopefully this will happen soon for the sake of the company and those who rely on the vital services they provide.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You would have a fight on your hands as there is little support for privatization in any form in ireland. the irish people want public services to remain public.

True, the water rates fiasco proved that. Although bin collections in Ireland are carried out privately, so who knows...

 

[DT611]

True, the water rates fiasco proved that. Although bin collections in Ireland are carried out privately, so who knows...

The privatization of the bins was done against the will of the people and it wasn't supported. We have for now at least, stopped the water charges and the subsiquent privatization that would follow however the war isn't won yet as no doubt they will try and introduce them some way.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The peculiar thing with Ireland is the ones who want more money given to the bus company are the same ones who want to say less tax.

 

[F Great Eastern]

You would have a fight on your hands as there is little support for privatization in any form in ireland. the irish people want public services to remain public.



There is no secondary action as the companies involved are all under the 1 umbrella company, and wish to show solidarity with their fellow workers. For what it's worth i think all sides at bus eireann need to sit down and talk rather then there being a strike, as each day that goes by is a wasted opportunity for talking and solving the issues. Hopefully this will happen soon for the sake of the company and those who rely on the vital services they provide.

Whether they are under the same umbrella or not makes no difference they are different companies in law.

The other irony is the umbrella company has money but doesn't want to use it to help out its subsidiary.

 

[radamfi]

You would have a fight on your hands as there is little support for privatization in any form in ireland. the irish people want public services to remain public.

There are lots of people on this forum who consider tendering the same as nationalisation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You would have a fight on your hands as there is little support for privatization in any form in ireland. the irish people want public services to remain public.



There is no secondary action as the companies involved are all under the 1 umbrella company, and wish to show solidarity with their fellow workers. For what it's worth i think all sides at bus eireann need to sit down and talk rather then there being a strike, as each day that goes by is a wasted opportunity for talking and solving the issues. Hopefully this will happen soon for the sake of the company and those who rely on the vital services they provide.

I think part of the problem here is that people in the UK are measuring this against UK culture, practice, legislation etc.

My experience of working in a highly unionised environment in the ROI is that it is markedly different to the UK. The best advice I was given before I worked there was "just because they speak English and drive on the left, don't forget it's a foreign country"

The various terms and conditions that employees have will not be surrendered easily.

 

[TUC]

There is no secondary action as the companies involved are all under the 1 umbrella company, and wish to show solidarity with their fellow workers. For what it's worth i think all sides at bus eireann need to sit down and talk rather then there being a strike, as each day that goes by is a wasted opportunity for talking and solving the issues. Hopefully this will happen soon for the sake of the company and those who rely on the vital services they provide.

It is secondary action if your own terms and conditions are not affected by the issue causing the dispute.

 

[TUC]

I think part of the problem here is that people in the UK are measuring this against UK culture, practice, legislation etc.

My experience of working in a highly unionised environment in the ROI is that it is markedly different to the UK. The best advice I was given before I worked there was "just because they speak English and drive on the left, don't forget it's a foreign country"

I agree and it's something I'm very conscious of. However what one can say is what has or hasn't worked elsewhere, and monopoly operators with high running costs and restrictive practices, together with the ability to carry out secondary action, are issues that the UK's experience shows caused endless problems in the 1970s.

 

[DT611]

I agree and it's something I'm very conscious of. However what one can say is what has or hasn't worked elsewhere, and monopoly operators with high running costs and restrictive practices, together with the ability to carry out secondary action, are issues that the UK's experience shows caused endless problems in the 1970s.

they might have caused problems for the uk but they don't for ireland. Secondary action is rare in ireland and for our size monopoly operators are the most cost effective for routes that require state support. That is why it is important for everyone's sake the issues at bus eireann get sorted. Each day is a missed opportunity for talking and solving.

 

[F Great Eastern]

they might have caused problems for the uk but they don't for ireland. Secondary action is rare in ireland

The only people who think they don't cause problems are the strikers and the strike and union supporters like yourself, I don't know anyone who supports the strike in Ireland myself and they will just lose more popularity if there are sympathy strikes, I have heard and read lots of people saying things like ransom holding.

for our size monopoly operators are the most cost effective for routes that require state support.

No monopoly is the most cost effective solution, if there was no monopoly the overtime entitlement culture would not exist.

 

[Hornet]

Bus Eireann's problem is low productivity. As the table shows, it has 5.5 staff per bus in its fleet. This compares with 3.7 at Dublin Bus and 1.8 at the member companies of the Coach Tourism and Transport Council, the representative body of many independent bus operators.

The message is stark. Bus Eireann has almost 50pc more staff per bus than Dublin Bus and 3.1 times more staff than its private sector competitors.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/they-missed-the-bus-over-productivity-35565751.html

and

Bus Éireann has admitted that it has been unable to pay some school bus operators because of the strike by its workers.
Almost 1,300 private operators provide services as contractors on behalf of Bus Éireann under the School Transport Scheme, transporting 115,000 children in the State to and from schools.
School bus operators who expected to be paid this week were not because the clerical staff were not there to process the application.
Bus Éireann said a technical solution will be put in place which will see contractors who were due to be paid last week receive their money next week instead.
The company added that its contract agreement with each school bus operator means that it must pay for services within 30 days.

Minister Ross should ensure the private coach operators be paid by Government directly, with a consequent reduction of funds to Bus Eireann. Plenty of private companies could deal with the this quite easily.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...-school-bus-operators-due-to-strike-1.3029686

 

[DT611]

Minister Ross should ensure the private coach operators be paid by Government directly, with a consequent reduction of funds to Bus Eireann. Plenty of private companies could deal with the this quite easily.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...-school-bus-operators-due-to-strike-1.3029686

but it's bus eireann's responsibility to pay their contractors and not shane ross. Shane ross has made it clear he isn't getting involved (which i agree with) so he needs to stick to it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Sinn Fein are out claiming that Fine Gael are doing this deliberately to force through more privatisation that nobody wants.

Sinn Fein have a point.

F Great Eastern, monopolies work both ways; there are plenty of cases where a monopoly employer drags down wages as bus drivers have two choices, like it or lump it. Some of the working practices seem strange to UK eyes, but the Irish (quite rightly) don't want the UK situation where the drivers get paid peanuts and the executives at the bus companies get paid millions.

 

[robertclark125]

At the same time, the suggestion from the unions, or certainly one of them, is for the government to simply throw money at it. The reality is, you're trying to cure the symptom, not the cause. It's like the car battery going flat; replacing it with another battery will get you off the motorway, but if you don't get the cause fixed, the same situation will occur again.

The difficulty here is that there needs to be, I think, two solutions. Firstly, a short term one to try and fix some of the losses, and a longer term one, to improve productivity. In terms of the latter, it would be ideal if a policy of natural wastage, where some staff who leave are not replaced, is adopted. It's not going to be easy however to do, as you don't know when staff are going to leave.

In addition, another idea might be that any new staff be placed on new working patterns, but the other staff stay as they are, until they leave.

It's not the best ideas in the world, but really, I think two solutions are needed, one short term, and one long term. I notice that no one from CIE, the parent of Bus Eireann, has got involved yet. Any reason why?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Disruption has spread to Dublin Bus and Irish Rail this morning with very limited services operating because of secondary picketing at locations which are not shared between the companies which the union warned about being possible earlier in the week, however the unions have said that they do not condone it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In addition, another idea might be that any new staff be placed on new working patterns, but the other staff stay as they are, until they leave.

This is to me a very good idea - but unions still oppose it even in the UK.

It can have an effect on existing staff, of course, which is one reason why - say, you have a TOC with Sundays optional, and you recruit staff with Sundays a mandatory part of the working week i.e. they will *always* work Sundays and receive other rest days instead to solve the issue. Sounds good. But it means no more highly-paid Sunday overtime for the existing staff...

 

[F Great Eastern]

Sinn Fein are out claiming that Fine Gael are doing this deliberately to force through more privatisation that nobody wants.

Sinn Fein have a point.

F Great Eastern, monopolies work both ways; there are plenty of cases where a monopoly employer drags down wages as bus drivers have two choices, like it or lump it. Some of the working practices seem strange to UK eyes, but the Irish (quite rightly) don't want the UK situation where the drivers get paid peanuts and the executives at the bus companies get paid millions.

I don't think drivers should be paid peanuts but I happen to think that being paid €60k is too much when you look at the rest of the economy and jobs in Ireland, there is no executive at any bus company who is earning millions, the highest paid one I believe is on less than a quarter of that, the issue is that the PSO arm is performing fine, the government cannot give the company illegal state aid against it's competitors which is what the staff appear to be calling for, for it's commercial division.

The problem with BE is productivity and staff refusing to use modern technology such as fuel saving and telemetry data without getting extra money for them, there has become and entitlement culture to overtime and people expect to get 1.5 hours every day every day because the rotas are set up in a way which means a driver spends half the day driving and then claims overtime at the end of it, the management simply want rotas to be changed so that the actual worked hours spend more time driving rather than the current situation where staff want to drive as little as possible during rostered hours because they'd rather do that driving after their scheduled finish because it is financially beneficial for them.

If a private contractor to the state in any industry was deciding they would be less productive during their standard hours and then the moment the clock hit into overtime hours they suddenly wanted to work very hard, people would say many negative things about being taken for a ride.

 

[F Great Eastern]

This is to me a very good idea - but unions still oppose it even in the UK.

It can have an effect on existing staff, of course, which is one reason why - say, you have a TOC with Sundays optional, and you recruit staff with Sundays a mandatory part of the working week i.e. they will *always* work Sundays and receive other rest days instead to solve the issue. Sounds good. But it means no more highly-paid Sunday overtime for the existing staff...

There has also been allegations from a former staff member on another forum that I read yesterday (politics.ie) and also in the media that this happens already and that the junior staff in the company feel that the union is very much run for the senior staff and that they feel pressured to go along with them through fear and intimidation. The unions generally are happy to sell new entrants down the river, because as in a lot of unions, it's all about the people at the top.

Already the press has stated that the longest serving staff are working less weekends, less evenings and on the best routes with the least revenue driving hours in standard time and the most layover time, but with the most overtime and the highest earnings and the junior staff are spending the majority of their time driving, more weekend and unsocial work, worst hours yet are coming out with little over basic pay.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Disruption has spread to Dublin Bus and Irish Rail this morning with very limited services operating because of secondary picketing at locations which are not shared between the companies which the union warned about being possible earlier in the week, however the unions have said that they do not condone it.

They are going back to work now following instruction by union.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think drivers should be paid peanuts but I happen to think that being paid €60k is too much

EUR60k is high. But is that what everyone is paid, or just what the most senior drivers are paid after clocking up the overtime?

It's easy to take the most outlandish example of high pay and then claim everyone in the whole business gets paid that.

Luas drivers get paid about EUR30k-EUR40k, which seems about right for the level of responsibility in the job. Tyne and Wear Metro drivers get about £35k. I wouldn't say long-distance bus drivers have fewer responsibilities than a tram or light rail driver.

there is no executive at any bus company who is earning millions

The boss of Go-Ahead gets over £2m a year in wages. The boss of First- BE's main commercial competitor- also gets over £2m a year in wages.

The UK bus drivers at those companies, on the other hand, get paid less in an entire year than what Tim O'Toole and David Brown get paid in two working days.

We only have to see what's happened with the bins and the water rates to know what Fine Gael's real aim is. Whether it's because they want privatisation or because the EU are forcing their arm, we don't know, but I don't blame the unions for resisting it.

 

[ainsworth74]

The boss of Go-Ahead gets over £2m a year in wages. The boss of First- BE's main commercial competitor- also gets over £2m a year in wages.

But surely that's the corporate umbrella rather than the actual bus operator itself? Go-Ahead and First both have significant rail operations as well as bus operations remember. What's the MD of Go North East on? Or Go-Ahead London? Those are bus companies to my mind not Go-Ahead the group. If for no other reason than I don't see how you can compare First to BE. Surely a fair comparison in that case would be First to CIE?

 

[F Great Eastern]

EUR60k is high. But is that what everyone is paid, or just what the most senior drivers are paid after clocking up the overtime?

It is the drivers who are clocking up overtime and there are a significant number who are earning more than €60k. This is the people who will be losing from the changes that BE are proposing, the people at the bottom end will be losing practically nothing and will simply have to do a few things they don't do now, unfortunately it seems that this strike benefits the senior staff a lot more than the rest, another example of this is the inverted pyramid in the admin grades.

There has been a junior member of staff who is posting on Politics.ie who has been outlining what it is like in the company and how the seniors are intimidating the juniors and how there very much is a feeling that over the years the seniors have been pushing all the donkey work ontot he juniors to keep their earnings up whilst giving the juniors little chance, the more pain the juniors take the less the seniors do, which is not solidarity.

Luas drivers get paid about EUR30k-EUR40k, which seems about right for the level of responsibility in the job. Tyne and Wear Metro drivers get about £35k. I wouldn't say long-distance bus drivers have fewer responsibilities than a tram or light rail driver.

Average page in BE is about €46k for the driving grade, the problem is that the juniors are getting little above €35k and the seniors are taking home over €60k, the big issue is that because the seniors resist change, the new entrants are having to unfairly take the can for them when they are hired and jobs are advertised with different terms to the seniors, effectively the company has had to punish new hires to stave off action before now because the seniors will not give an inch on anything.

The boss of Go-Ahead gets over £2m a year in wages. The boss of First- BE's main commercial competitor- also gets over £2m a year in wages.

I was talking about in Ireland.

We only have to see what's happened with the bins and the water rates to know what Fine Gael's real aim is. Whether it's because they want privatisation or because the EU are forcing their arm, we don't know, but I don't blame the unions for resisting it.

When I lived in Ireland it was controversy over them but the same people who are calling for increased tax funding to the companies are the same ones who did not want to pay property tax or water tax, they do not see the connection with the amount of tax being paid versus the amount of tax money that can be spent on public services.

In relation to bin services, maybe other people have a problem with it but when I lived in Ireland the end result was a more flexible service, a more reliable service that picks up on a schedule that suits me better for a cheaper cost, the service is way ahead of the publicly owned one.

 

[F Great Eastern]

But surely that's the corporate umbrella rather than the actual bus operator itself? Go-Ahead and First both have significant rail operations as well as bus operations remember. What's the MD of Go North East on? Or Go-Ahead London? Those are bus companies to my mind not Go-Ahead the group. If for no other reason than I don't see how you can compare First to BE. Surely a fair comparison in that case would be First to CIE?

CIE is tiny though in comparison to First, as far as it's transport operations go.

 

[radamfi]

The article above shows that BE already use lots of private contractors, as many as 1,300, for school transport. Why don't unions care about that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The article above shows that BE already use lots of private contractors, as many as 1,300, for school transport. Why don't unions care about that?

Dare I suggest it's because they don't want to do the work themselves because badly-behaved skoolkydd speshuls are not an awful lot of fun to drive?