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Crossrail 2

Crossrail 2, Metro or Regional

  • Metro option offering a high-frequency, underground service across central London

    Votes: 19 19.0%
  • Regional option connecting central London with areas to the north east and south west

    Votes: 81 81.0%

  • Total voters
    100
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Going by Crossrail standards, Crossrail 2 would be built for 32tph 12-car National Rail standard.

For those of us in "Northernland", any talk of 32tph 12-car trains is something guaranteed to shock us, as we have no understanding of such matters...<(

Excuse me whilst I adjust my position on the bus-seating so carefully provided for us in addition to the "ice-cold" central heating system on this Class 142 Pacer.
 
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mister-sparky

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Crossrail 2 is definitely going to interchange with Crossrail 1 at Tottenham Court Road. The rebuild is happening at the moment and they're building the tunnels and concourse etc to interchange as part of the rebuild, so it won't disrupt things later on. They're actually future proofing for a change.
 

Class377/5

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Crossrail 2 is definitely going to interchange with Crossrail 1 at Tottenham Court Road. The rebuild is happening at the moment and they're building the tunnels and concourse etc to interchange as part of the rebuild, so it won't disrupt things later on. They're actually future proofing for a change.

It's not the first to include provision for Hackney-Chelsea/Crossail 2 line. First was Angel and Victoria rebuild it getting it. Not sure if Kings Cross got it tho.
 

hwl

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Both Crossrail 1 and 2 will remove lots of existing services from the existing Liverpool street platforms (and the approach tracks).

So what does this mean for Liverpool Streets future (I'm an occasional user)?
a) reduce number of platforms to enable all platforms to become full length
b) divert (some?) Fenchurch street services to Liverpool Street to provide improved onward connections for those services. [Diversions happen during engineering works at the moment I believe]
c) combination of the above?

Other thoughts:
Chelsea station. This is there to fill a black hole in the tube / rail network (if you look at a proper geographic map) and will reduce the number of buses (and possibly car/taxi use in the area too).
Tooting station. Reduces Northern line over crowding (also for stations further in) and reduction in buses (and congestion).

Post completion Thameslink and HS2, there will be far few passengers arriving at Kings Cross, hence the focus for a station location being St Pancras (Kings Cross) for Thameslink interchange (assuming they can't not have a good CR2 TL interchange!)

Given the cost of station vs plain tunnel they want to keep the number of stations (especially those close together) low, hence presumably the suggestion for Eustion / StPancras?
 

swt_passenger

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Given the cost of station vs plain tunnel they want to keep the number of stations (especially those close together) low, hence presumably the suggestion for Eustion / StPancras?

Euston and St Pancras will probably be the two entrances either end of the same station anyway, in the same way as the main Crossrail 1 stations are double ended, (e.g. Farringdon/Barbican, Moorgate/Liverpool St). With the station tunnels being 240m long and deeper than the existing tube stations in the area, careful orientation of the escalators will allow all three mainline stations to be served by the single CR2 station.
 
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Hasn't it seen stated that Crossrail 2 will be needed by the mid 2030's to cope with passenger growth in London anyway regardless of HS2, however the construction of HS2 and the thousands of extra passengers expected to arrive in Euston in the rush hour means that Crossrail 2 is necessary to disperse passengers from Euston once the second phase of HS2 is up and running in 2033.
 

Class377/5

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Hasn't it seen stated that Crossrail 2 will be needed by the mid 2030's to cope with passenger growth in London anyway regardless of HS2, however the construction of HS2 and the thousands of extra passengers expected to arrive in Euston in the rush hour means that Crossrail 2 is necessary to disperse passengers from Euston once the second phase of HS2 is up and running in 2033.

Considering London population is expected to grow by the size of Leeds by time HS2 arrives something along the lines of Crossrail 2 will benefit far more people than most other schemes including the Northern Hub.

So thoses that attack the South East's investment should remember the system is based on benefits so the higher the population the bigger the benefits will be.

I wonder how some would cope with stations being closed in peak as the stations quite simply can't cope with the numbers using it? This happens on a daily basis in London and in no way is the Northern's overcrowding as bad as the South's. if your complaining two car hour services are busy, can you not see the fact that people that are three times longer (like in the example given) yet three times more frequency. So where is the bigger problem? The South with problems with capacity despite having 9 times more capacity in the examples given is clearly going to benefit more. Simple maths shows you that.
 

SouthernHRH

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Just something I made up a while ago.

crossrail2_S.jpg


The above would be the sort of route I would "follow". Essentially exactly the same as the proposed Chelsea > Hackney just extended out further.

With regards to services, again my preference, would be to operate in a similar fashion to Thameslink and operate as a long distance train service between large population centres via Central London. The southern termini could include, Guildford, Dorking and Farnborough. Even potentially reach down as far as Portsmouth/Southampton if needed. At the Northern end of the route, Stansted, Cambridge and Hertford stretching as far as Norwich.

Just my 2c
 

Class377/5

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Just something I made up a while ago.

The above would be the sort of route I would "follow". Essentially exactly the same as the proposed Chelsea > Hackney just extended out further.

With regards to services, again my preference, would be to operate in a similar fashion to Thameslink and operate as a long distance train service between large population centres via Central London. The southern termini could include, Guildford, Dorking and Farnborough. Even potentially reach down as far as Portsmouth/Southampton if needed. At the Northern end of the route, Stansted, Cambridge and Hertford stretching as far as Norwich.

Just my 2c

Wimbledon has been thrown out as does the rest of the route as the proposed depots for the Hackney-Chelsea Line (which is what your map is, just diverted to Stratford instead of Epping, not Crossrail 2) were at Wimbledon and Stratford railway land. The Stratford location is now the Olympic Park and Wimbledon is needed by SWT unlike pervious thinking.

Your suggestion of longer distances is an interesting idea, however a mainline sized railway, they really don't want it going that far beyond zone 6. Idea is to allow long distances more track capacity as they reduce longer dwell times as major stations unlike metro type routes. Something that will kill capacity on what they are proposing for Crossrail 2.

Difference between Thameslink and Crossrail 2 is Thameslink is getting 24tph in peak but Crossrail 2 they are looking at 32tph. Big difference and something that makes long distances unlikely.
 

Chris125

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Hasn't it seen stated that Crossrail 2 will be needed by the mid 2030's to cope with passenger growth in London anyway regardless of HS2, however the construction of HS2 and the thousands of extra passengers expected to arrive in Euston in the rush hour means that Crossrail 2 is necessary to disperse passengers from Euston once the second phase of HS2 is up and running in 2033.

That's the basic argument from HS2 Ltd - it's overall passenger growth, not HS2, that is likely to justify Crossrail 2.

See Question 7 of the written answers to the TSC

Chris
 

Class377/5

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That's the basic argument from HS2 Ltd - it's overall passenger growth, not HS2, that is likely to justify Crossrail 2.

See Question 7 of the written answers to the TSC

Chris

I'm quoting here what it says about Crossrail 2

7. We were told by TfL that they were worried about capacity at Euston to handle and disperse the passenger flows generated by the combination of HS2 and existing routes. They told us that Crossrail 2 would need to be in operation before the opening of HS2 to handle demand. We have also received representations about the disruptive impact of the Euston HS2 works on the existing train service into Euston. Can you comment on these issues?
HS2 would increase the numbers of national rail passengers using both the mainline and Underground stations at Euston. As well as rebuilding the mainline station improvements to the Underground station would also be made, including a new direct link to Euston Square. These works would be expected to deal with crowding issues in the Underground station.

In terms of crowding on the underground trains, our analysis indicates that the extra number of Underground passengers at Euston due to HS2 would be small compared with the overall numbers already using the Underground. Whilst high quality public transport access and dispersal at all HS2 stations would undoubtedly be desirable to maximize the benefits of the new line, HS2 Ltd is not in a position to comment on the value for money of particular schemes.
Even without HS2, the number of national rail passengers arriving or departing Euston will grow by 100% by 2043 resulting in around 8,700 additional passengers using the Underground station during the morning peak. The average loading of all London Underground services travelling through Euston Underground in the 3 hour AM peak period is currently 138% and is expected to increase to 185% in 2043 without HS2. Both the Northern and Victoria lines which stop at Euston are likely to be particularly heavily crowded.
By 2043, HS2 Ltd estimates some 5,500 additional rail passengers would use Euston Underground Station in the morning peak as result of HS2 Phase 1 – but this is equivalent to an increase in the total number of passengers travelling on London Underground services passing through Euston of just 2%. As a result of HS2 Phase 1 we estimate only a small additional increase in crowding on LUL services at Euston from 185% to 191%.

Accordingly, any requirement for additional underground capacity would be predominantly triggered by general growth, not the effect of HS2. We believe that the same conclusion holds, in principle, for the wider Y network which would further increase demand at Euston but may also limit demand growth at Kings Cross St Pancras as passengers transfer to high speed services from the ECML and MML. We have not, however, analysed these numbers in equivalent detail, as we have yet to finish our work on developing the route and business case for links to Manchester and Leeds. HS2 Ltd will be working with TfL on the impacts at Euston as the Manchester and Leeds work is finalised, and is ready to provide any necessary input to TfL’s wider ongoing strategy for modernising and improving Underground services should a decision be taken to proceed with HS2.

So overcrowding at 185% by 2043 without HS2 shows the extend of the overcrowding. Crossrail two should help reduce those numbers while also solving capacity problems on the current SWT & GA franchises by running 12 car mainline sized trains.

And what Northern and Transpennie Express' expected over crowding levels by 2043 post the Northern Hub and electrification?
 

HSTEd

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I don't think TPE North overcrowding figures really matter, since I somehow doubt they are going to get to 300% or so, which is when you actually require more paths to increase capacity.

I believe most of the stations are or can be cleared for 9 23m vehicles.... I don't think I have ever seen a doubled up Class 185 in service, so I think there is absurd amounts of room for increased capacity.
 

RobShipway

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I don't think TPE North overcrowding figures really matter, since I somehow doubt they are going to get to 300% or so, which is when you actually require more paths to increase capacity.

I believe most of the stations are or can be cleared for 9 23m vehicles.... I don't think I have ever seen a doubled up Class 185 in service, so I think there is absurd amounts of room for increased capacity.

Isn't Trans Penine going to be getting 4 car Class 350's, when some of the routes are electrified? If that is the case then I would suspect that more than covers the capacity, if the three car 185's are not fully used?
 

ainsworth74

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Isn't Trans Penine going to be getting 4 car Class 350's, when some of the routes are electrified? If that is the case then I would suspect that more than covers the capacity, if the three car 185's are not fully used?

They are getting ten 350s to cover most diagrams between Manchester and Scotland. It is, at present, unknown what form future EMUs will take to run on TPE North services. As for capacity a 350 is eighty meters long whilst a 185 is sixty-nine meters so the actual capacity boost is going to be very small. Though of course it will free up a few 185s to strengthening services on the core TPE routes.

Basically TPE is unlikely to see any significant capacity uplift until the wires over the Pennines are energised and EMUs can be deployed on those routes.

I don't think I have ever seen a doubled up Class 185 in service, so I think there is absurd amounts of room for increased capacity.

You won't because they're all needed on Scottish TPE services, TPE North did not do very well out of TPE being required to operate Manchester - Scotland on a fleet not intended to cover that route in addition to it's other routes. Then again neither did TPE South, that was never really intended to get 170s (which were meant for Hull only) but due to a lack of 185s...
 

Ivo

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"Euston King's Cross St Pancras"

Fancy having to do a manual announcement for that...

"Change here for London Underground Circle, Hammersmith & City, Metropolitan, Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria lines, Thameslink services, including services to Gatwick and Luton Airports, High Speed 2 services to the Midlands and the North, National Rail services, including services to Scotland, and international rail services."

Not to mention the mouthful of a name...
 

Zoe

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Considering HS2 stations have been proposed with names "Birmingham Interchange" and "Crossrail Interchange", how about "London Interchange"? The NR stations at King's Cross, St Pancras and Euston could also be renamed
 

HSTEd

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That would go down well.......

What about "Euston Road" as the name of the Crossrail Stations?
Or perhaps "Network Rail Euston Road"?
 

jopsuk

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Could get even more fun if the Northern gets properly split, with one half getting a new name.
You forgot "High Speed 1 services to Kent" and "Services to North Wales" mindyou. Midlands might get a bit miffed at being ignored, as might the North East and North West.
 

YorkshireBear

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Change here for international services, HS1 services to kent and HS and National rail services to pretty much everywhere north of London.
 

joeykins82

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This is EuPanCross: change for London Underground, National Rail and International Rail services from Euston, King's Cross and St Pancras International.
 

si404

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"Change here for London Underground Circle, Hammersmith & City, Metropolitan, Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria lines, Thameslink services, including services to Gatwick and Luton Airports, High Speed 2 services to the Midlands and the North, National Rail services, including services to Scotland, and international rail services."
I've just mocked up a (pretty poor) line map - EKXSP has 6 national rail symbols (WCML, HS2, ECML, MML, HS1, Thameslink) - though I guess I could knock it down to three (Euston, St Pancras, Kings Cross), and 7 tube symbols (Circle, H&C, Met, Victoria, Northern CX, Northern Bank, Piccadilly). I guess it also needs airplane symbols (Gatwick, Luton, Birmingham International, Manchester International, Paris CdG...)
 

swt_passenger

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The BBC version of the story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21333361

...includes rather an odd take on the subject by one of the usual suspects.

RMT union general secretary Bob Crow said: "It is vitally important that we don't waste more time delaying transport infrastructure developments that would make a massive difference for millions of people.

"It is equally important that big-business isn't allowed to call the shots on the routes and the timescales for these infrastructure developments.

"They should be built and operated in the interests of all Londoners not just the wealthy elite."

What is he like...
 

Clip

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Anyone know why they have chosen turnpike lane rather than wood green? I would've thought wood green would be easier to develop
 
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