Croydon Tram Crash

[jamesst]

I suggest you level the charge of scurrility to the BBC London reporter who. on 'Spotlight' at 10.30 p.m. on Thursday was quoting ex-drivers (plural) who had contacted them regarding the pressures they had felt under all the time to keep to the timetable: perhaps also to the gentleman on camera on the same programme who had emailed TfL a few weeks earlier with his concerns as a passenger of drivers speeding on this bend (he received no reply). Then on the BBC London website is the Facebook entry dated October 31st by another gentleman of his tram taking the bend at 40 mph that morning and one side lifting off the rails and thinking he was going to die. Oh, and the time of his posting was 05.26. They could of course all have been lying and/or mistaken, or perhaps the chap on Facebook was so prescient he knew there was going to be an accident a few days later and posted this knowing it would be chanced upon, even if it wasn't true.:-x

Because the public aren't known for exaggerating at all are they...

 

[2HAP]

Now being reported that driver was texting whilst driving. :roll:

The driver of the tram that derailed in Croydon, killing seven people, was texting at the time of the crash, it has been claimed.

Detectives are investigating the driver’s phone records

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/13/croyd...crash-that-killed-seven-6254681/?ito=facebook

 

[neonison]

Whatever the veracity of the "40mph" claim, the statement was made prior to 8th November. Whatever the case, surely any vehicle should not be driven at a speed which makes its occupants feel unsafe or even uncomfortable? This is something of which I have to remind my son when his mother is in his car, even less so of a public transport vehicle.

 

[Antman]

Now being reported that driver was texting whilst driving. :roll:



http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/13/croyd...crash-that-killed-seven-6254681/?ito=facebook

Whether that is true or not remains to be seen but regrettably I have seen a Tramlink driver seemingly texting whilst driving before, I reported the matter to an official and it was dealt with appropriately.
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Whatever the veracity of the "40mph" claim, the statement was made prior to 8th November. Whatever the case, surely any vehicle should not be driven at a speed which makes its occupants feel unsafe or even uncomfortable? This is something of which I have to remind my son when his mother is in his car, even less so of a public transport vehicle.

And how do you establish at what speed all the passengers feel safe?

 

[Bromley boy]

Whatever the veracity of the "40mph" claim, the statement was made prior to 8th November. Whatever the case, surely any vehicle should not be driven at a speed which makes its occupants feel unsafe or even uncomfortable? This is something of which I have to remind my son when his mother is in his car, even less so of a public transport vehicle.

That is a completely subjective concept which may make sense in the context of a car being driven on a "national speed limit" country lane.

However it makes no sense in the train/tram public transport context. Line speed is the speed the train or tram is required to be driven at in order to keep to the timetable. Whether this makes passengers uncomfortable or not is not something the driver has any control over.

Speeding is taken extremely seriously. OTMR "black box" equipment means there's nowhere to hide. Any driver speeding could face disciplinary action and it is almost unheard of. See the recent RAIB investigation into 75 through a 5 TSR by a London midland train for an example of how seriously this is taken.

 

[neonison]

However it makes no sense in the train/tram public transport context. Line speed is the speed the train or tram is required to be driven at in order to keep to the timetable. Whether this makes passengers uncomfortable or not is not something the driver has any control over.

So why were millions spent on APT and Pendolinos? Tilting technology is not there to keep the vehicles on the rails.

Suggesting that the maximum speed is the sole basis for diagramming and can ignore passenger comfort would not seem a tenable basis for a timetable. I used Metrolink for years before my job changed and would not have done so had I felt unsafe or uncomfortable. It may be subjective and there will always be those who are queasy but it's quite possible to find what is acceptable and that point will be far short of the limit of adhesion.


.

 

[Bromley boy]

So why were millions spent on APT and Pendolinos? Tilting technology is not there to keep the vehicles on the rails.

Suggesting that the maximum speed is the sole basis for diagramming and can ignore passenger comfort would not seem a tenable basis for a timetable. I used Metrolink for years before my job changed and would not have done so had I felt unsafe or uncomfortable. It may be subjective and there will always be those who are queasy but it's quite possible to find what is acceptable and that point will be far short of the limit of adhesion.


.

Yes but you seem to be equating driving a tram/train with a car in your example.

Trams/trains are driven at line speed. The driver has discretion to driver slower than this if necessary but not for reasons that have anything to do with passenger comfort. Line speed may be determined by a number of factors including passenger comfort, but a tram/train driver has no discretion to slow down for nervous passengers!

 

[ooo]

This is the third serious accident in just under 18 months within firstgroups London rail operations . The other two were attributed to driver error, and it is likely that this one will be too. What the hell is going on in firsts performance managment.

What were the other two?

 

[amcluesent]

More on reports driver, whose name has been confirmed by First, was txting

A source told The Sun on Sunday: “The driver’s mobile has been closely examined and it is said he was halfway through writing a text message. It could have serious repercussions for him.”

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/21736...rner-significantly-above-the-permitted-speed/

 

[bramling]

More on reports driver, whose name has been confirmed by First, was txting



https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/21736...rner-significantly-above-the-permitted-speed/

Whilst this is obviously extremely serious if true, I'd urge a bit of caution on this. A half-written text message on a phone is not proof that a text message was being written whilst the tram was being driven. Innocent until proven guilty needs to be remembered.

This would explain why not much has been said from the authorities though. The tram's data recorder would have been pulled almost immediately, so it ought to be possible to shed some light on the cause by now -- if only to reassure tram users.

 

[AlterEgo]

Whilst this is obviously extremely serious if true, I'd urge a bit of caution on this. A half-written text message on a phone is not proof that a text message was being written whilst the tram was being driven. Innocent until proven guilty needs to be remembered.

This would explain why not much has been said from the authorities though. The tram's data recorder would have been pulled almost immediately, so it ought to be possible to shed some light on the cause by now -- if only to reassure tram users.

Agreed entirely.

 

[QueensCurve]

Do trams use laminated glass designed to hold (like trains), or do they use toughened glass designed to break (like cars, which retain their occupants using seat belts instead)?

Modern cars use laminated glass for the front windscreen too.
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Probably nothing more than coincidence.

That is true, and it may still. as part of a root cause analysis, be worth checking there is no common underlying factor.

 

[Antman]

Whilst this is obviously extremely serious if true, I'd urge a bit of caution on this. A half-written text message on a phone is not proof that a text message was being written whilst the tram was being driven. Innocent until proven guilty needs to be remembered.

This would explain why not much has been said from the authorities though. The tram's data recorder would have been pulled almost immediately, so it ought to be possible to shed some light on the cause by now -- if only to reassure tram users.

Indeed, it's one theory after another about what the driver was and wasn't doing, asleep, passed out and now he was supposedly on the phone, next he'll have been smoking a joint and swigging a can of special brew.

As a matter of course the police would check any mobile phones he had with him.

 

[rebmcr]

My consumer spec. satnav is capable of showing the speed limit change withing a few yards of passing the road-sign; GPS augmented by wheel sensors when in a tunnel etc.

My consumer spec. phone has 'geo-fencing' which can trigger actions based on location.

The technology would seem to be all there to have these trams follow their location to within a few yards and check the current speed is under that allowed for the track segment, automatically braking as needed. No line-side kit needed.

Not even close to reliable enough to form the foundation of a safety-critical system.

It would either be non-functional to the point of uselessness, or instead throw up false positives at the drop of a hat, bringing the network to a halt each time.

 

[daikilo]

Not even close to reliable enough to form the foundation of a safety-critical system.

It would either be non-functional to the point of uselessness, or instead throw up false positives at the drop of a hat, bringing the network to a halt each time.

Rebmcr, I agree with Goodpoint, the technology exists to power this second line of defence for unintended over-speeding. However, how to then make it into an active protection will be more complex as to date no sat-nav that I am aware of does anything other than inform. Maybe the self-driving car technologies will do that.

 

[matt_world2004]

What were the other two?

A trap and drag at Hayes & Harlington which didn't immediately get reported to the raib because first group believed the passenger was lying . Driver found to have an number of disciplinary issues . Also the driver refused to return to the station for an interview and the spad derailment at Paddington caused by the driver fasting.

 

[amcluesent]

Not even close to reliable enough to form the foundation of a safety-critical system.

It would either be non-functional to the point of uselessness, or instead throw up false positives at the drop of a hat, bringing the network to a halt each time.

Being deployed in California

Positive Train Control (PTC) is GPS-based safety technology capable of preventing train-to-train collisions, over-speed derailments, unauthorized incursion into work zones and train movement through switches left in the wrong position*. PTC monitors and, if necessary, controls train movement in the event of human error.

http://www.metrolinktrains.com/agency/page/title/ptc

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Being deployed in California



http://www.metrolinktrains.com/agency/page/title/ptc

A quick read of that link quickly reveals that the GPS kit is simply providing a reminder to the driver and triggers the Onboard System in the event of incorrect driver response. The OS gets its position information from Wayside Interface Units (Balises in Eurorail speak) and doubtless measures distance travelled from last WIU through counting wheel rotations. A useful extra layer of precaution certainly but useless without the OS already existing.

 

[gage75]

There was a picture on the bbc earlier of one tram right in front of the incident tram, looks like they used it to tow it up the hill.

Edit found the picture, looks like it was top and tailed upto the extraction point

Indeed the incident tram was top and tailed to the extraction point before being split and lift at about 3am on the Saturday morning

 

[Chris M]

There are I think three trams providing the limited service east of Sandilands at present, and the latest info on the TfL website says there is expected to be no service through the affected area all day tomorrow (Monday 14th).
How long can those three trams continue to be used in service before they absolutely have to visit the depot for routine serving/maintenance/checks?
I presume the daily checks are being done in the field (for want of a better term) but can they be fully completed?

 

[edwin_m]

Not even close to reliable enough to form the foundation of a safety-critical system.

It would either be non-functional to the point of uselessness, or instead throw up false positives at the drop of a hat, bringing the network to a halt each time.

The system only needs to intervene in the even of a dangerous overspeed, which despite this accident remains a very rare event. So it doesn't have to have the sort of safety integrity of a heavy rail signalling system, where a wrong-side failure would have a high probability of causing a catastrophic accident because the driver is relying completely on it. As long as it doesn't generate false positives or suffer from latent faults*, a low-integrity system would be perfectly adequate to provide a last line of defence against a rare sequence of events.

*A fault that the equipment or maintenance regime doesn't identify and fix in a reasonable time, so it could persist for a long period until the equipment is really needed.

 

[Antman]

There are I think three trams providing the limited service east of Sandilands at present, and the latest info on the TfL website says there is expected to be no service through the affected area all day tomorrow (Monday 14th).
How long can those three trams continue to be used in service before they absolutely have to visit the depot for routine serving/maintenance/checks?
I presume the daily checks are being done in the field (for want of a better term) but can they be fully completed?

I think they can survive for several days at least without returning to base and have done so before because of engineering work. I think it had been hoped to have the network fully reopened tomorrow?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The system only needs to intervene in the even of a dangerous overspeed, which despite this accident remains a very rare event. So it doesn't have to have the sort of safety integrity of a heavy rail signalling system, where a wrong-side failure would have a high probability of causing a catastrophic accident because the driver is relying completely on it. As long as it doesn't generate false positives or suffer from latent faults*, a low-integrity system would be perfectly adequate to provide a last line of defence against a rare sequence of events.

*A fault that the equipment or maintenance regime doesn't identify and fix in a reasonable time, so it could persist for a long period until the equipment is really needed.

Not so sure its so rare reading an article in the Daily Star:

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/561644/croydon-tram-crash-2016-latest

Croydon Tram crash: 'It was as if a racing driver was in charge'

TRAMS were driven “like racing cars” on a section of track where seven people died in a crash.

2
By Andrew Jameson / Published 13th November 2016

Tram PA
SMASH HORROR: The overturned tram in which seven people were killed

Witnesses claimed the trams were smashing the speed limit and flying around sharp bends.

Driver Alfred Dorris, 42, has been bailed on suspicion of manslaughter after the fatal crash in Croydon, south London, last Wednesday.

And Cliff Gadd, 56, said he and his nine-year-old grand-daughter had endured a terrifying journey on the line just days before the accident.

Tram LNP
ROLLER COASTER: Another passenger compared the journey to 'a ride from Alton Towers'

“I used to work on the railways and I know what too fast is and this was much too fast”
Cliff Gadd

Mr Gadd said it felt as if a “racing driver” was at the controls as the tram made a “screaming noise” while barrelling through a tunnel.

He added: “I used to work on the railways and I know what too fast is and this was much too fast.”

Mr Gadd shouted at the driver but claims he just laughed.

After a separate incident Andy Nias wrote on Facebook: “I swear the tram lifted onto one side. Everyone still shaking. It’s mad.”
The Croydon tram crash
Wednesday, 9th November 2016
Several people are feared dead and dozens were injured after a tram overturned in Croydon.

Another passenger compared the journey to “a ride from Alton Towers”.

Last night rail investigators continued to explore different theories about the incident, including whether the driver may have blacked out.

A spokesman for Transport for London said they could not comment as an investigation is under way.

 

[BestWestern]

Not so sure its so rare reading an article in the Daily Star:

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/561644/croydon-tram-crash-2016-latest

Oh dear, more press hysteria.

"The tram made a screaming noise as it went through a tunnel". The tunnel is on a straight, isn't it? Has that chap - who "used to work for the railways" (train driver of 40 years experience perhaps, or bloke who swept the platforms maybe, who knows) ever ridden on a Pacer I wonder. Nothing but utter wibble designed to fill pages.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A trap and drag at Hayes & Harlington which didn't immediately get reported to the raib because first group believed the passenger was lying . Driver found to have an number of disciplinary issues . Also the driver refused to return to the station for an interview and the spad derailment at Paddington caused by the driver fasting.

Why did First allegedly 'believe the passenger to be lying'? That is a very odd response indeed. If a report comes in, it would generally be reported immediately, particularly something of that severity. CCTV was readily available, and indeed was eventually retrieved. Something not quite right there...

 

[matt_world2004]

Why did First allegedly 'believe the passenger to be lying'? That is a very odd response indeed. If a report comes in, it would generally be reported immediately, particularly something of that severity. CCTV was readily available, and indeed was eventually retrieved. Something not quite right there...

1.) They didn't believe a door could achieve interlock with a passengers hand trapped inside

 

[AlterEgo]

Not so sure its so rare reading an article in the Daily Star:

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/561644/croydon-tram-crash-2016-latest

Daily Star tosh.

 

[jon0844]

Oh dear, more press hysteria.

"The tram made a screaming noise as it went through a tunnel". The tunnel is on a straight, isn't it? Has that chap - who "used to work for the railways" (train driver of 40 years experience perhaps, or bloke who swept the platforms maybe, who knows) ever ridden on a Pacer I wonder. Nothing but utter wibble designed to fill pages.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why did First allegedly 'believe the passenger to be lying'? That is a very odd response indeed. If a report comes in, it would generally be reported immediately, particularly something of that severity. CCTV was readily available, and indeed was eventually retrieved. Something not quite right there...

First didn't believe me that a train stopped short and the doors opened without there being a platform. They said they'd investigated and found it didn't happen. It did because I was ON the train and looked out, as did others who ran along the carriage to alight.

Sadly I didn't take a photo or video it, which seems to be the only way to prove someone these days.

Later on it appeared the error was down to an incorrectly positioned stop board.

Not that this necessarily has anything to do with First whatsoever, other than First happening to be the operator at the time.

 

[FileTrekker]

How accurate and reliable is a consumer spec satnav?

I think we are some way away from near 100% reliability with that kind of stuff.

Given GPS is military-grade technology, though, it wouldn't be too prohibitively expensive to create a more industrial-grade solution based on it though, redundant antennas, redundant electronics, etc. - if it designed to fail safe, for example, if there was no GPS lock or an unconfirmed / weak GPS lock, or a system failure, the tram could be limited to the maximum street-running speed until it is taken out of service.

Certainly it would have prevented an incident like this.

At a minimum it would be perfectly suitable as an overspeed warning system, triggering an alarm or bell, and / or notifying Control, even if It didn't intervene with the vehicle itself.

 

[Rick1984]

“I swear the tram lifted onto one side. Everyone still shaking. It’s mad.”

This is the one that gets me. Paints an image of all the wheels on one side of the Tram lifting off the rails then slamming back down!

 

[bramling]

First didn't believe me that a train stopped short and the doors opened without there being a platform. They said they'd investigated and found it didn't happen. It did because I was ON the train and looked out, as did others who ran along the carriage to alight.

Sadly I didn't take a photo or video it, which seems to be the only way to prove someone these days.

Later on it appeared the error was down to an incorrectly positioned stop board.

Not that this necessarily has anything to do with First whatsoever, other than First happening to be the operator at the time.

Unfortunately, reports made by passengers do tend to be treated with a degree of scepticism. This is because virtually every single one turns out to either be an error, or worse a deliberate lie. Far more times than not, when CCTV is viewed it paints a different picture to the one painted by the complainer.

That's not to say reports aren't or shouldn't be investigated, just that I'd treat *any* report made by someone who isn't railway staff as very suspect, until substantiated by some kind of evidence, be it CCTV or download.