D&G Buses

[mangad]

Yes territory overlaps. I said that in my original post. I’m not sure operating in an area a previous company operated in gives you a right to that company’s image and heritage. Arriva for example could legitimately use a retro scheme because they acquired the new North Western that acquired Crosville Northwich territory that was theirs due to Nationalisation from the original North Western. D&G have no such claim. Or do they? That was my question

The back of the bus says "Celebrating a century of buses in East Cheshire and Derbyshire". Which seems carefully worded to avoid claiming there is a lineage.

However High Peak does have a connection as North Western 's Buxton depot went to Trent

 

[daodao]

This is the map of the original North Western company - I uploaded this map to Flickr on behalf of the Museum of Transport Greater Manchester. The link between the old company and the operating territory of D&G/High Peak is clear.

North Western Road Car map, 1968 by Paul Williams, on Flickr

A route map that I (vaguely) recall from 55 years ago. Few of this extensive network of routes now survive, and most that do have been renumbered. However, bus route 19 (Macclesfield-Prestbury) has the same number, and since the changes in April 2023, has reverted to its historic routeing as shown on this map.

 

[GusB]

I think you have your North Westerns mixed up

If you're going to suggest that someone is getting things mixed up, please do provide an explanation as to why you think this is the case. Otherwise your post is totally unhelpful.

Yes territory overlaps. I said that in my original post. I’m not sure operating in an area a previous company operated in gives you a right to that company’s image and heritage. Arriva for example could legitimately use a retro scheme because they acquired the new North Western that acquired Crosville Northwich territory that was theirs due to Nationalisation from the original North Western. D&G have no such claim. Or do they? That was my question

Even if there's no direct lineage from the original North Western to D&G, I don't see anything wrong with them giving a nod to a long gone company that operated in the same territory.

 

[jp4712]

Stagecoach, Hulley's and D&G all consulted us on livery details etc. There's no real single 'successor' to North Western given what happened to the company in 1972/3, we thought it was good that all the companies wanted to celebrate the heritage of buses in their respective territories.

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed so, I was invited to photograph it last week on emerging from the paint shop - my photos below.


Centrebus / D&G 504, Cannock, September 2023 by Paul Williams, on Flickr

And the back…

Centrebus / D&G 504, Cannock, September 2023 by Paul Williams, on Flickr

Currently at the Wincham outstation. Re-entered service yesterday on 89, that interworks with the 88. Today on the 82. Given Northwich was in the operating area of the original North Western bus company and currently within D&G's operating area, it's strange that they specifically refer to East Cheshire on the livery.

 

[SeanM1997]

Its nice D&G are doing liveried buses - I was hoping they would do a Pride bus for Crewe Pride this year but alas not. Maybe in 2024 if this becomes a trend

 

[northwichcat]

Its nice D&G are doing liveried buses - I was hoping they would do a Pride bus for Crewe Pride this year but alas not. Maybe in 2024 if this becomes a trend

I don't think a Crewe Pride bus is as easy to implement as a Warrington or Manchester one. While D&G have quite a few routes around Crewe, they have many routes that don't go near Crewe. It could end up on a 31, 37 or 38 and then end up staying in Northwich or Macclesfield, as it's swapped with a vehicle needing to go back to Crewe for attention. With Warrington Own Buses' there's very few routes that don't go to Warrington and even the vehicles that operate those routes return to Warrington at the end of the day. Just yesterday a Solo came off the Macclesfield operated 385 to take the place of a faulty vehicle on the Wincham operated 88, starting the journey short at Wilmslow. It seemed a Solo SR went up to take over the 385 - the Macclesfield manager must have wanted to hang on to that vehicle!

 

[SeanM1997]

I don't think a Crewe Pride bus is as easy to implement as a Warrington or Manchester one. While D&G have quite a few routes around Crewe, they have many routes that don't go near Crewe. It could end up on a 31, 37 or 38 and then end up staying in Northwich or Macclesfield, as it's swapped with a vehicle needing to go back to Crewe for attention. With Warrington Own Buses' there's very few routes that don't go to Warrington and even the vehicles that operate those routes return to Warrington at the end of the day. Just yesterday a Solo came off the Macclesfield operated 385 to take the place of a faulty vehicle on the Wincham operated 88, starting the journey short at Wilmslow. It seemed a Solo SR went up to take over the 385 - the Macclesfield manager must have wanted to hang on to that vehicle!

I meant a generic pride bus - just Crewe Pride was part of the opening of new public Realm works in Crewe this year so would have been nice for that but having it based in Crewe means it would appear at Macclesfield, Northwich, Nantwich etc. for their prides

 

[northwichcat]

I meant a generic pride bus - just Crewe Pride was part of the opening of new public Realm works in Crewe this year so would have been nice for that but having it based in Crewe means it would appear at Macclesfield, Northwich, Nantwich etc. for their prides

I think there's also a Pride Picnic at Tatton Park. The thing I wouldn't have confidence in is D&G having the vehicle operational and in the right place on the right day. The last thing they'd want is their 'Pride bus' failing on the day of Pride and having people stuck as they wait for a plain red bus to replace the failed bus.

18/09 18:55 - Just noticed all the remaining Solo SRs in the YJ13 HN* registration sequence last tracked on routes serving Cheshire East, one on the 318 and the others on the 94 and 130. Those were originally Cheshire East Council sponsored for the Crewe area, with most ending up being moved to the 88 route following the GHA Coaches collapse, before getting transferred to Staffordshire.

 

[SeanM1997]

I note D&G's website still has a survey on it for suggestions - how likely are improvements or additional services? I note routes 37 and 38 seem popular and existing buses may not be able to cater for all the passengers wishing to use the services whilst services 12/31/42 are likely to see an increase in patronage with First's recently cut to route 6

 

[sonic2009]

I use the 37 0655 Northwich service from Crewe to Winsford, and it get's busy after leaving Sandbach, picking up students for the John Deans college in Northwich, there are many standing on this bus, under Arriva days it was always 95% a decker.

 

[33117]

I meant a generic pride bus - just Crewe Pride was part of the opening of new public Realm works in Crewe this year so would have

I use the 37 0655 Northwich service from Crewe to Winsford, and it get's busy after leaving Sandbach, picking up students for the John Deans college in Northwich, there are many standing on this bus, under Arriva days it was always 95% a decker.

nice for that but having it based in Crewe means it would appear at Macclesfield, Northwich, Nantwich etc. for their prides

See this is where D&G miss a trick as they currently haven't got deckers. However I think they're gonna seriously look into them as an option.

 

[sonic2009]

See this is where D&G miss a trick as they currently haven't got deckers. However I think they're gonna seriously look into them as an option.

I don't think D&G will get deckers, as any services ran outside of the school/college hours with deckers didn't have many passengers on them with Arriva. I'm not sure what single deckers in the current UK Market can offer more seats than what D&G currently use.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think D&G will get deckers, as any services ran outside of the school/college hours with deckers didn't have many passengers on them with Arriva. I'm not sure what single deckers in the current UK Market can offer more seats than what D&G currently use.

Well the obvious answer to what's longer than their Enviro 200s, is an Enviro 300.

 

[sonic2009]

Well the obvious answer to what's longer than their Enviro 200s, is an Enviro 300.

Yes I didn't think of that, but they dont make these anymore do they, unless 2nd hand

 

[markymark2000]

Well the obvious answer to what's longer than their Enviro 200s, is an Enviro 300.

But there's not many E300s about really and they aren't sold anymore. Almost all E300s are in use with Stagecoach.

Their best bet would be to find full size, heavyweight vehicles like Volvo's or get the full size Streetlites. They give an extra 7 or so seats and are longer so have more standing room. Issue is they cost money.

 

[M803UYA]

But there's not many E300s about really and they aren't sold anymore. Almost all E300s are in use with Stagecoach.

Their best bet would be to find full size, heavyweight vehicles like Volvo's or get the full size Streetlites. They give an extra 7 or so seats and are longer so have more standing room. Issue is they cost money.

There's also the issue of operating costs - Volvo's have a lower MPG figure than an Enviro 200 as they're heavier. The longer Enviro 200 can move around 60 people in the peaks, so can do the work of a double decker if slotted into a line of them. A shorter Enviro 200 would only be able to move around 50 people.

 

[markymark2000]

There's also the issue of operating costs - Volvo's have a lower MPG figure than an Enviro 200 as they're heavier. The longer Enviro 200 can move around 60 people in the peaks, so can do the work of a double decker if slotted into a line of them. A shorter Enviro 200 would only be able to move around 50 people.

But generally the Volvos are much better liked by passengers versus Enviro 200s. Even old volvos are much nicer than newer Enviro 200s. More seats and more standing space (can hold about 80-90 pax), generally better on interurban routes like the 31/37 and generally better liked by passengers. While yes the MPG may be lower, that could surely be counteracted by more passengers being able to travel and happier passengers?

 

[sonic2009]

But there's not many E300s about really and they aren't sold anymore. Almost all E300s are in use with Stagecoach.

Their best bet would be to find full size, heavyweight vehicles like Volvo's or get the full size Streetlites. They give an extra 7 or so seats and are longer so have more standing room. Issue is they cost money.

Are there any of the ex First Streetlites around? Like the ones that Als Coaches took on for the 22 service in Chester?

It's interesting what's happening with D&G, still like most operators they suffer from driver shortages - will be interesting to see what happens in the next year or so.

 

[M803UYA]

But generally the Volvos are much better liked by passengers versus Enviro 200s. Even old volvos are much nicer than newer Enviro 200s. More seats and more standing space (can hold about 80-90 pax), generally better on interurban routes like the 31/37 and generally better liked by passengers. While yes the MPG may be lower, that could surely be counteracted by more passengers being able to travel and happier passengers?

They probably would be appreciated by the drivers and the passengers, but an Enviro is cheaper to operate on fuel consumption terms. I'm cynical, but the last people considered by people operating buses are the drivers and the passengers. See also the Wright Streetlite - for accountants by accountants....

 

[northwichcat]

There's also the issue of operating costs - Volvo's have a lower MPG figure than an Enviro 200 as they're heavier. The longer Enviro 200 can move around 60 people in the peaks, so can do the work of a double decker if slotted into a line of them. A shorter Enviro 200 would only be able to move around 50 people.

Just as a reminder on the 82 route run a 07:10 Chester to Northwich (arrriving 08:23) and a duplicate 07:33 Tarvin to Northwich (arriving 08:23). Those are usually operated by Optare Versas or long Enviro 200s. It was previously one double decker under Arriva and GHA Coaches. A double decker has a capacity of over 90, so the long Enviro is around 50% less. Sometimes that 50% less doesn't just mean more standing passengers, it means the bus is too full to allow everyone to board.

They probably would be appreciated by the drivers and the passengers, but an Enviro is cheaper to operate on fuel consumption terms. I'm cynical, but the last people considered by people operating buses are the drivers and the passengers. See also the Wright Streetlite - for accountants by accountants....

The Streetlite DFs have a terrible ride quality, especially on poorly maintained routes i.e. most of the UK network at the moment! The WFs are reasonable and seem quite good at hill climbing (something Enviros can struggle with), even if the D&G examples have a couple of strange extra longitudinal seats crammed in.

Their best bet would be to find full size, heavyweight vehicles like Volvo's or get the full size Streetlites.

But generally the Volvos are much better liked by passengers versus Enviro 200s.

Both GHA Coaches and Howard's Travel did cost comparisons.

GHA got two new Metrocities for the 45 Northwich-Warrington and their 'GHA Gold' Enviros for the 42 Crewe to Congleton. For a few days they switched the Metrocities and Enviros around and the Enviros burned more fuel on both the 42 and 45 routes.

Howards bought one new Metrocity and had older Volvos already in the fleet. The owner said the fuel consumption comparison was shocking, he didn't realise how much the Volvos were drinking in comparison to a brand new Optare vehicle. The problem he had is he needed to sell the Metrocity once the 289 contract was cancelled.

I'm also not sure passengers like Volvos. Passengers like quiet, modern, well-maintained buses that run to time and provide a reasonable ride quality. They don't look at which manufacturer's badge is on the front. You might not like it but most passengers find the 13 reg Solo SRs in the D&G fleet really nice vehicles to travel on. Unlike you they don't claim they are short distance buses being used on interurban routes.

 

[M803UYA]

Just as a reminder on the 82 route run a 07:10 Chester to Northwich (arrriving 08:23) and a duplicate 07:33 Tarvin to Northwich (arriving 08:23). Those are usually operated by Optare Versas or long Enviro 200s. It was previously one double decker under Arriva and GHA Coaches. A double decker has a capacity of over 90, so the long Enviro is around 50% less. Sometimes that 50% less doesn't just mean more standing passengers, it means the bus is too full to allow everyone to board.

The Streetlite DFs have a terrible ride quality, especially on poorly maintained routes i.e. most of the UK network at the moment! The WFs are reasonable and seem quite good at hill climbing (something Enviros can struggle with), even if the D&G examples have a couple of strange extra longitudinal seats crammed in.

I'm also not sure passengers like Volvos. Passengers like quiet, modern, well-maintained buses that run to time and provide a reasonable ride quality. They don't look at which manufacturer's badge is on the front. You might not like it but most passengers find the 13 reg Solo SRs in the D&G fleet really nice vehicles to travel on. Unlike you they don't claim they are short distance buses being used on interurban routes.

I guess the difficulty D&G has is that 82 journey (and the return in the PM) would be the heaviest loaded trips of the day? Rest of the time, the bus may operate 40/50% full at best. Hence the amount of c30 seat vehicles in the fleet.

Ideally, you just want a double deck to come out for that trip - running it all day would result in fuel consumption that'd resemble George Best's drinking in a pub, and presumably make the route uneconomic. Other issue would be finding a suitable driver for the duty - the days of part timers have long since gone.

Some clever planning could marshal a second vehicle to handle the overload twice a day but evidently D&G is content with a long/short Enviro 200 and just loading it fully on those two trips.

It depends how they've been maintained, but the Solo is 'generally' better on interurban work, it being the successor to the Mercedes 709/Vario which also was an ideal interurban vehicle, that could take a phenomenal amount of abuse and still go out to work the day after. Darts/Enviros are more town type vehicles best suited to stop/start work. My personal preference is a Dart SLF over an Enviro.... rattles a little less.

If you trace D&G's fleet policy back to pre low floor days, the Mercedes 709 featured heavily and was ideal for the loadings on their services. Still might be but for a need to run low floors now. That capacity has morphed into something like a Dart SLF/Enviro/Solo now with it's appetite for fuel being somewhat larger than an old 709D.

 

[markymark2000]

I'm also not sure passengers like Volvos. Passengers like quiet, modern, well-maintained buses that run to time and provide a reasonable ride quality. They don't look at which manufacturer's badge is on the front.

I know that most passengers don't know the manufacturers badge but I know from speaking to passengers that in my area where we had Volvo Eclipses, passengers preferred them to the newer Enviro 300s because they felt newer and they said more comfortable. Drivers also much preferred the Eclipses to all other vehicles. (just one example, opinions in other areas may differ)

The Streetlite DFs have a terrible ride quality

I've never found Streetlites that bad. I always enjoy travelling on them, much more than E200s. It's clearly just a difference in opinion that we have. I want to say Streetlites, even full size ones, have a lower overall capacity though than the likes of Eclipses. Not sure though, someone may be able to elaborate.

You might not like it but most passengers find the 13 reg Solo SRs in the D&G fleet really nice vehicles to travel on. Unlike you they don't claim they are short distance buses being used on interurban routes.

It's not just my opinion but the opinion of many others. For longer distance interurban, a Solo isn't anywhere near as good as buses which are built for the routes. Have a bit of umph behind them, are comfortable at the higher speeds (which is typical for all heavyweight buses). IF you disagree, go and speak to the people who have to rely on Chaserider daily as they put the solos out on core interurban routes and passengers hate them. Mainly because the buses aren't built for that kind of work and tend to break down more because they are being pushed to their limits.
I have nothing against Solos or Solo SRs in general as they have a great place in the industry. My gripe is specifically against them being used on interurban routes.

Howards bought one new Metrocity and had older Volvos already in the fleet. The owner said the fuel consumption comparison was shocking, he didn't realise how much the Volvos were drinking in comparison to a brand new Optare vehicle. The problem he had is he needed to sell the Metrocity once the 289 contract was cancelled.

Metrocities are nice too. What does a full size Metrocity carry? Theres a few good high capacity single deckers out there. It just so happens that Volvo seem to make most of them and thats one of the reasons why I brought them up. I am surprised by Howards saying the Eclipses drink a lot of fuel considering that firstly, they are the buses which they always seem to fall back on but secondly, many other operators have praised them. Especially the fuel consumption when you take into account the work they are doing and some of the things they put the bus through (route wise). For the topic of the 31/37 though, you either need deckers for them few busy trips or you need the biggest single deckers that you can get. This conversations wasn't meant to be putting buses against eachother but more finding a vehicle which would fit the daily needs of D&G (ie not deckers) but also has the capacity for the trips that are being done. Sadly I think it's a D&G policy of making patronage fit the size of the bus they are offering rather than proving a bus which suits the patronage (by which I mean discourage passengers who don't want to be crammed onto a bus rather than put on bigger buses which mean more people can travel comfortably)

 

[northwichcat]

I've never found Streetlites that bad. I always enjoy travelling on them, much more than E200s. It's clearly just a difference in opinion that we have.

Have you ever been along the B5085 or A537 on one of the small Streetlites? They're the only type of vehicle that vibrate and rattle so much when they pick up speed that I get a headache as the result of being on the bus.

When Altrincham-Knutsford was half-hourly and one of the Streetlites was on the route, some people even watched that bus leave and caught the next one instead - they're that bad at speed!

It's not just my opinion but the opinion of many others. For longer distance interurban, a Solo isn't anywhere near as good as buses which are built for the routes. Have a bit of umph behind them, are comfortable at the higher speeds (which is typical for all heavyweight buses). IF you disagree, go and speak to the people who have to rely on Chaserider daily as they put the solos out on core interurban routes and passengers hate them. Mainly because the buses aren't built for that kind of work and tend to break down more because they are being pushed to their limits.
I have nothing against Solos or Solo SRs in general as they have a great place in the industry. My gripe is specifically against them being used on interurban routes.

Solos are smaller than the buses Arriva would have used on some routes. Even if there's 20 people on the bus, most would prefer a 45 seater over a 28 seater. However, some of the Solos Chaserider use are buses Arriva had repainted red. Painting them red doesn't make them worse.

I'm not sure about Solos being unreliable because of being used on interurban routes. D&G's small Enviros have a terrible record of failing on routes like the 38, 42 and 88

Metrocities are nice too. What does a full size Metrocity carry?

Maximum is 44 seated and 16 standing. https://www.optare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/MetroCitySpecSheetOct2018AW6pp.pdf

I am surprised by Howards saying the Eclipses drink a lot of fuel considering that firstly, they are the buses which they always seem to fall back on but secondly, many other operators have praised them.

Like I alluded to in my earlier post the problem with a new Metrocity is it costs a lot more than an old bus. Just looking at some bus classified ads, I could get a 55 reg Wright Eclipse for less than the cost of a new car. But even if I get settle for a 19 reg Metrocity, I need to find £97,000. As a short term investment it would be cheaper to pay more to maintain the Wright Eclipse and to fill it up with diesel more regularly. However, if I expected to be running bus services in 10 years time and had the finance to do so, the Metrocity would be a no-brainer. The old Howards Travel company was liquidated, so a loan for a new bus might not be an option for the new business. Plus, some work shuttles won't generate as much revenue as an all-day bus service 6 days a week.

running it all day would result in fuel consumption that'd resemble George Best's drinking in a pub, and presumably make the route uneconomic.

Or you switch the routes between when the schools start and end. Stagecoach use a spare decker to run the W7, even though it doesn't need a decker. Arriva sometimes put deckers on the Northwich-Weaverham, presumably because it'd burned less fuel than putting it on a route where speed would be required.

 

[markymark2000]

Have you ever been along the B5085 or A537 on one of the small Streetlites? They're the only type of vehicle that vibrate and rattle so much when they pick up speed that I get a headache as the result of being on the bus.

When Altrincham-Knutsford was half-hourly and one of the Streetlites was on the route, some people even watched that bus leave and caught the next one instead - they're that bad at speed!

I haven't, I will be honest. I've been on DG57BUS and MX60BXC on the 82 and they were quite good at speed. Also been on MX60GWZ on the 85 from Crewe to Newcastle and was similarly impressed. Everyones experiences vary I suppose.

Maximum is 44 seated and 16 standing. https://www.optare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/MetroCitySpecSheetOct2018AW6pp.pdf

Nowhere near the capacity of a full size heavyweights. While yes you want everyone seated ideally, if you can have more standing, it's always good as it helps to keep people moving and for short distances, crush loading isn't that bad.

 

[northwichcat]

I've been on DG57BUS and MX60BXC on the 82 and they were quite good at speed.

The big ones are a very different affair. They seem to be quite good hill climbers and without the rattles and vibrations that they little brothers come with. Some of the Enviros D&G use struggle to pick up speed heading up the Castle area of Northwich, towards Greenbank station, never mind Kelsall Hill. The Arriva Wright Cadets also struggled with the hill in Castle.

Seems all but one of the Optare Versas have returned to the Adderley Green depot. The remaining one is currently at Crewe and tracked on the 84X last night (Sat 23rd). It seems every day in the past week at least one of the 64 reg Enviro 200s were on the 82. These were branded for the 82 before D&G decided they weren't powerful enough for Kelsall Hill and moved them to the 288, with Versas taking their place on the 82.

 

[SeanM1997]

D&G changes from 5 November 2023 - http://dgbus.co.uk/

7, 7A Hanley - Chell - Kidsgrove / Biddulph
"Sunday times on buses towards Hanley are changed from 5th November. All other times remain unchanged."

http://dgbus.co.uk/assets/7%2c7a_2023-11-05.pdf

18 Hanley - Endon - Leek - Buxton
"Times are changed from 5th November. The Leek to Buxton section of route is withdrawn due to low passenger numbers. More buses will run between Hanley and Leek."

http://dgbus.co.uk/assets/18_2023-11-05.pdf

 

[JD2168]

Bit of an end of an era with the 18 changes, I remember this section to Buxton being part of First PMT X18 service that ran to Sheffield via Bakewell.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Bit of an end of an era with the 18 changes, I remember this section to Buxton being part of First PMT X18 service that ran to Sheffield via Bakewell.

The Sunday service was a recent re-instatement. I would have used it to go for a walk that way but the bus gets back to Hanley after my last bus home has departed. The weekday service is part of service 108.

 

[Simon75]

Bit of an end of an era with the 18 changes, I remember this section to Buxton being part of First PMT X18 service that ran to Sheffield via Bakewell.

Maybe it will run again next Spring/Summer.
I do wish there were more Leek to Buxton journeys in the week, and adding them on 16 (as they did), instead of the 108