Daft fares on rural lines

[yorkie]

I was shocked recently when I saw the fares on the Harrogate line. A passenger asked for a single to Cattal and was asked for £5.10. I checked and this is indeed the cheapest available single fare. The journey is only 10 miles! That's disgraceful and exploitative. No wonder the 1717 peak time service wasn't that full with only a few standees. The daft fares must be pushing people onto the roads, as I 'raced' Max to Knaresborough, I beat him on a Pacer by about 20 minutes because the road journey was so slow due to so many people using it.

An extra 75 (ish) miles for a Whitby to Cattal is only an extra £6.00

So customers are being charged roughly 50% the price of a Whitby-Cattal for only about 11% of the mileage.

Cattal to Knaresborough isn't any better, at £3.90 for a single for 6 miles.

At under 6 miles, Horsforth to Weeton £4.50 for a single is another ludicrous fare.

Cattal-Micklefield is bizarrely set by TPE, despite TPE not operating on either the Harrogate line at all, or the York-Leeds locals. This means there is a First Day Return at £30.20. Presumably for this price they provide a taxi to go 15 miles down the A1?!

York-Micklefield is also quite poor value at £6.60 single / £8.90 return (no cheaper fares than that at all) for only 16 miles. Over twice the distance from Micklefield to Marsden (about 33 miles) is only £5.20 for a return!

To use one example in Scotland, you can get from Edinburgh to Pitlochry for £17.60 for a day return, which isn't bad for 90 miles. But then the journey becomes very rural and a ticket from Pitlochry to Kingussie, which is less than half the distance, is also £17.60.

York to Goole is about 25 miles by road, yet the cheapest single ticket costs a whopping £15.50. Would anyone actually buy such a ticket?

Micklefield-Church Fenton is £4.40 return for 5 miles.
Church Fenton-Pontefract is £5.70 return for 10 miles.
Yet Micklefield-Church Fenton-Pontefract is £3.20 return because it doesn't count as a rural journey as both origin and destination are within West Yorkshire. Anyone doing a rural journey is best off not admitting it, buying the longer ticket and cutting the journey short or starting short (this is valid).
Anyone going from Micklefield-Sherburn must not ask for such a ticket as it would cost more than three times the fare to the next stop, Pontefract. Although I accept that anyone without mobility problems would probably buy a ticket to South Milford and walk from there but that's beside the point.

Now I know that the railways don't operate a distance based pricing structure and I am not campaigning for that, but what is the point in pricing rural journeys on trains that are not overcrowded like they are in London, at levels that are so high that the residents of those places would just laugh at the thought of paying them and just drive instead?

The argument that "The TOCs must make a profit" is a red herring as these services are not profitable in any sense and run as a public service. But how is it a public service if the fares are ripping the public off?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Brough to Hull is about 10 minutes, and is 10.5 miles, and is £5.60 Single and about £5.90 return. All the fares in the Hull route seem very expensive!

 

[fgwrich]

Basingstoke to Reading...£3.25 Single - with RC, without £4.90...Distance 17 miles...The fares down west, from what i gather are very good aswell £...

Certainly not as ludacous as some of the prices youve mentioned above, if they were like that down here, id either drive anywhere and complain to my local toc, or just take the bus as much as i can...
rich

 

[monkey]

...that is so wierd seeing as I'm doing newcastle - burley park, via harrogate for £4.30 advance + yp. the fares the same if you go one stop further to leeds though as well via this same route - although, if your going to leeds it does take a lot longer, where as for me getting to burley park it usually means waiting for the train at leeds, adn thus works out only 10 mins longer to my destination...

edit: I only booked this on friday as well....

 

[yorkie]

...that is so wierd seeing as I'm doing newcastle - burley park, via harrogate for £4.30 advance + yp. the fares the same if you go one stop further to leeds though as well via this same route

That's 5p cheaper than York-Harrogate. So someone could save money by buying an AP fare from Newcastle to Burley Park, and start 'short' at York, and then end 'early' at somewhere like Horsforth and that's actually a few quid cheaper. NT do not do AP fares but are always available as "connections".

A few years ago I got tickets for people returning from Wick after a railtour. Megabus is expensive from Inverness but the £1 tickets were available from Edinburgh. The train was insanely expensive to Edinburgh though. So the solution was to buy AP to Sheffield (with an overnight stay at Edinburgh) and simply discard the Edinburgh-Sheffield part and get the night Megabus instead. Crazy but true.

 

[starrymarkb]

The fares down west, from what i gather are very good aswell

They are indeed, Exeter to Plymouth (50 miles each way) £7.50 Off Peak return. Most of the branches also undercut the local buses by huge amounts (ie Dawlish to Newton Abbot is £2.80 by train - £5.80 by bus)

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Try the Bromley North line less it's less than a mile long yet it costs £3.20 off-peak! What a cheek!

 

[yorkie]

Full fare is £2.70 off peak, £2.90 anytime, and it's about 1.6 miles. Expensive but not quite as bad as you claim! This fare is wholly within Greater London so will be set zonally by TfL.

 

[John @ home]

Try the Bromley North line less it's less than a mile long yet it costs £3.20 off-peak! What a cheek!

Full fare is £2.70 off peak, £2.90 anytime, and it's about 1.6 miles. Expensive but not quite as bad as you claim! This fare is wholly within Greater London so will be set zonally by TfL.

SouthEastern-465, have you been quoted the £3.20 fare by a ticket machine? I have in the past had to complain to the local TOC about ticket machines in that area being set to charge for too many Zones for some journeys. After escalating the complaint to the MD of SouthEastern, it was sorted for Beckenham Junction and Bromley South, and my family received a few rail travel vouchers as compensation, but this sounds as if the same issue may have appeared for one or more stations on the Bromley North branch.

I can confirm that the Off-Peak Day Return for the full length of the branch, Grove Park - Bromley North, is £2.70. A fare of £3.10 (not £3.20) would be consistent with being charged for one extra zone in error, which was the issue my family had.

John

 

[466.networkers]

The Sheerness Line is 8 miles long, the standard rail fare is £3.30 for a single (which is the same peak and off peak) (from Sheerness to Sittingbourne) and £3.90 for a return.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

They are indeed, Exeter to Plymouth (50 miles each way) £7.50 Off Peak return. Most of the branches also undercut the local buses by huge amounts (ie Dawlish to Newton Abbot is £2.80 by train - £5.80 by bus)

Having quoted some expensive fares in the North, look at Skipton to Settle or vice versa. 15 miles. £4.40 Single, £4.60 Return. Which is cheaper than the bus, which when I last looked was about £5.00 return. The train is also more frequent and quicker than the bus, especially on the weekend when Saturdays the bus is two-hourly, and Sunday there are none! And that area is outside of a PTE so the fares are not subsidised.

Yet Marsden to Greenfield, also outside a PTE area, and with fares set by Northern as above, is 6 miles, takes 8 minutes, and is £4.80 Single and £5.70 return! Half the distance, but a higher fare!

 

[Demps]

I just dont know where they get their numbers from, can somebody answer me directly why tickets are so expensive? This is a solely bad comparison, as air fares have their own world of advantages with cheap fares, but, I can get a return to stockholm for £25, yet it would cost me £50 (cheapest avaliable fare) to travel to maryport from york this friday, and return the following sunday.

 

[TEW]

I just dont know where they get their numbers from, can somebody answer me directly why tickets are so expensive? This is a solely bad comparison, as air fares have their own world of advantages with cheap fares, but, I can get a return to stockholm for £25, yet it would cost me £50 (cheapest avaliable fare) to travel to maryport from york this friday, and return the following sunday.

You are also giving a bad example, comparing a walk on railway fare with an advance purchase air fare, compare like to like and I am sure you will find that trains are actually rather cheap at times.

 

[yorkie]

I just dont know where they get their numbers from, can somebody answer me directly why tickets are so expensive? This is a solely bad comparison, as air fares have their own world of advantages with cheap fares, but, I can get a return to stockholm for £25, yet it would cost me £50 (cheapest avaliable fare) to travel to maryport from york this friday, and return the following sunday.

Tickets are expensive for some routes because the 'powers that be' have lost sight of the fact that the railways are supposed to be a public service, basically.

I do not like the comparison between AP plane fares and walk-on train fares! However I accept that for YRK-MRY there are no AP fares and therefore the comparison is a bit more justified. The plane fare will be heavily subsidised though and in no way reflects the true cost (and certainly not the environmental cost).

York-Maryport is indeed £49.90, valid on any train. I can't find a way to split this ticket for a period return. It may be worth considering a Freedom of the North East, at £75. For only £25.10 more you can have unlimited travel on two additional days within a 8 day period. In fact, for about £1 less than that, you can buy a 16-25 Railcard and a Freedom of the North East Rover, so at least then you are getting discounts for a year as well as the 2 days bonus travel.

Other alternatives include:
AP fares are available York-Carlisle
AP fares on TPE (with some special offers on TPE website) York-Warrington/Manchester, plus AP fares on TPE from Manchester-Barrow, or on Virgin from Warrington-Carlisle or Virgin&Connections Warrington-Maryport.

There's a couple of railtours going to Carlisle on Saturday. Shame there isn't one on Sunday as you could have asked for a part fare!

 

[glynn80]

I just dont know where they get their numbers from, can somebody answer me directly why tickets are so expensive? This is a solely bad comparison, as air fares have their own world of advantages with cheap fares, but, I can get a return to stockholm for £25, yet it would cost me £50 (cheapest avaliable fare) to travel to maryport from york this friday, and return the following sunday.

The two fares you have given are hardly comparable.

The only airline, I have found that offers any return fares even remotely close to the £25.00 fare you quote is Ryanair (the next closest competitior is bmi at £96.40, fares checked for the following 12 months using Skyscanner).

You are therefore comparing an airline fare that requires far in advance booking, prohibits alterations to flight times and name changes and charges a whole multitude of additional fees from payment handling fees (unavoidable for everyone apart from those with Visa Electron) to checked in bag fees; with a rail ticket (the SVR fare) that permits travel out on any service you wish all day on the day of purchase and return again on any service you wish within a month, which has no advanced booking requirement and which you can get near to a full refund on

If you had booked in advance for your rail ticket as you did for you airfare, you could have benefited from fares as low as £10.00. You decided not to and paid the price.

Just as a final point, if had decided to purchase a walk on fare like the SVR with Ryanair it would have cost you in the region of £270.00 return.

 

[Demps]

You are also giving a bad example, comparing a walk on railway fare with an advance purchase air fare, compare like to like and I am sure you will find that trains are actually rather cheap at times.

You will find it isnt a walk on fare, its a set price....

I accept that for YRK-MRY there are no AP fares...

York-Maryport is indeed £49.90, valid on any train. I can't find a way to split this ticket for a period return.

Tickets are expensive for some routes because the 'powers that be' have lost sight of the fact that the railways are supposed to be a public service, basically.

Does this pay any relevance to government ruling? It was a bit of a Thrown about comment but a friend once said "Its because these TOCs have to pay the government so much!" is there any truth in that? (Bare with me, im pretty knowledgeless when it comes to this subject.

Other alternatives include:
AP fares are available York-Carlisle
AP fares on TPE (with some special offers on TPE website) York-Warrington/Manchester, plus AP fares on TPE from Manchester-Barrow, or on Virgin from Warrington-Carlisle or Virgin&Connections Warrington-Maryport.

So your saying i could book well in advance with any of those, and get a cheap fare, and then just pay the standard fare for the remaider? (Carlisle-maryport)

There's a couple of railtours going to Carlisle on Saturday. Shame there isn't one on Sunday as you could have asked for a part fare!

Now that would have being interesting, however its vital that i get the weekend in, do you know of any tours monday/tuesday? An interesting concept which i have thought about, but shrugged it off as i assumed the 'part fare' would be equally expensive.

All info is kindly appreciated yorkie!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you had booked in advance for your rail ticket as you did for you airfare, you could have benefited from fares as low as £10.00.

How long would it take in advance for me to get a fare at £10

This is the key thing i dont understand, the advanced ticket purchase, there is no scale to show me when, and how early i have to book a train fare for X price.

 

[theblackwatch]

Unfortunately, the Harrogate line, mentioned in the first post, has become extremely expensive in recent years, and things aren't helped by the lack of Open Returns meaning that if you're going somewhere one day and back the next, you have to buy two singles. Starbeck has been priced so that customers/passengers are in a 'lose lose' situation - go to Leeds and you pay the same fare as from Knaresborough (but 2 miles or so less) , and go to York and you pay the from Harrogate fare (again, around 2 miles less).

Doing a bit of analysis on the fares, CDR tickets on the line have increased by almost 50% in under six years, and are now not a great different from SDR fares. In November 2003, a CDR Starbeck-York was £4.70, now it is £6.80. Starbeck-Leeds CDR was £5.30 in 2003, now it is £7.50. Aside from the fact that there is no train till almost lunchtime on Sundays, is it any wonder I drove to Leeds for the Neville Hill Open Day yesterday?

 

[glynn80]

You will find it isnt a walk on fare, its a set price....

The ticket you have posted about at "£50.00" is the SVR (Off Peak Return) fare which is designated a "walk-on/walk-up" fare because it costs price on the day as it does if you purchase it weeks/months in advance, i.e. you can just walk-up and purchase it at that price.

EDIT: New Post

Unfortunately, the Harrogate line, mentioned in the first post, has become extremely expensive in recent years, and things aren't helped by the lack of Open Returns meaning that if you're going somewhere one day and back the next, you have to buy two singles.

The line is way too short in both journey time and distance to warrant Open Returns.

It is also a commuter line and would therefore be susceptible to the fraud that is associated with Open tickets.

 

[theblackwatch]

This is the key thing i dont understand, the advanced ticket purchase, there is no scale to show me when, and how early i have to book a train fare for X price.

This also applies to your air fares, does it not?

 

[glynn80]

How long would it take in advance for me to get a fare at £10

If I am honest those £10.00 fares are not in great abundance and would have to be snapped up pretty quickly.

This is the key thing i dont understand, the advanced ticket purchase, there is no scale to show me when, and how early i have to book a train fare for X price.

National Express (the TOC who offer the £10.00 fare) do offer an Advanced Ticket Alert system which passengers can sign up to (http://www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com/Travel-Information/Advanced-Ticket-Alert/). This will send an email to the passenger as soon as the cheap tickets for the journey they want go on sale and can be very useful.

 

[asylumxl]

Luton to St Albans: £5 off-peak, £7.80 anytime

11 miles or so.

The Arriva bus to St Albans is usually quite busy as a result.

 

[Max]

Brough to Hull is about 10 minutes, and is 10.5 miles, and is £5.60 Single and about £5.90 return. All the fares in the Hull route seem very expensive!

I certainly find this to be the case. Hull-Cottingham is a prime example, £4 single for ony 5 miles. Compare this to Crossgates-Leeds, a very similar distance - here the single is only £1.60! I do feel that commuters in the Hull area get a very raw deal on fares.

It seems even more daft when looking at fares on the Yorkshire Coast line generally - Cottingham-Scarborough single is only £11.60, that's 3 times the price for around 10 times the mileage!

 

[glynn80]

I certainly find this to be the case. Hull-Cottingham is a prime example, £4 single for ony 5 miles. Compare this to Crossgates-Leeds, a very similar distance - here the single is only £1.60! I do feel that commuters in the Hull area get a very raw deal on fares.

The two fares aren't really comparable because the Cross Gates to Leeds fare is subsidised by a Passenger Transport Executive.

 

[Max]

The two fares aren't really comparable because the Cross Gates to Leeds fare is subsidised by a Passenger Transport Executive.

I do realise this - I'm just pointing out that commuters in the Leeds area get a much better deal :roll:.

 

[glynn80]

I do realise this - I'm just pointing out that commuters in the Leeds area get a much better deal :roll:.

Surely you would expect subsidy to be placed in areas where it is most likely to be utilised to the maximum?

 

[Max]

Surely you would expect subsidy to be placed in areas where it is most likely to be utilised to the maximum?

And why wouldn't it be utilised in the Humberside area? The Hull urban area has a population density comparable to the West Yorkshire conurbation, and public transport resources are seriously under-utilised, mainly due to lack of funding and subsidy at local level.

 

[glynn80]

And why wouldn't it be utilised in the Humberside area? The Hull urban area has a population density comparable to the West Yorkshire conurbation, and public transport resources are seriously under-utilised, mainly due to lack of funding and subsidy at local level.

Is there any evidence that under investment is the cause of Hull's under utilised public transport network?

As far as I have seen, Hull has had numerous transport initiatives implemented in the past few years from the Hull Trains operation to the brand new bus station that has recently opened. Just because it's population size is too small to benefit from a PTE does not mean it is not benefiting in other areas.

EDIT: New Post

Getting back on topic, the Huddersfield Examiner has written an article on a rural fare that is apparently one of the most expensive in the country:

Marsden to Greenfield train fare one of UK’s most expensive

A TRAIN fare between two stations seven miles apart is one of the most expensive in the country.

The single journey from Marsden to Greenfield in Greater Manchester costs a whopping £4.80.

The fare is considerably higher than the cost of the single trip from Marsden to Huddersfield at £1.70 and only 10p less than a return trip from Marsden to Leeds at £4.90.

The fare for the trip through the Standedge rail tunnel is believed to be one of Britain’s most expensive fares per mile.

The equivalent journey in a car running on diesel fuel and averaging 45 miles per gallon would cost just over 70p.

Northern Rail, which runs local train services between Manchester and Huddersfield, say the reason why the Marsden-Greenfield journey costs almost three times as much is because travellers cross two rail zones, West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester.

But Mr Potts, of Marsden, who paid the £4.80 fare on September 4, says this is irrelevant as Northern Rail operate services which span both zones.

Mr Potts said: “I personally fail to see the relevance of this ethos. As a taxpayer who presumably contributes in some way to the subsidy of a company such as Northern Rail, I object to a fares policy that deters travellers from using public transport, rather than encouraging it!”

Colne Valley councillor and Liberal Democrat Parliamentary candidate said: “It’s a complete rip-off. Rail prices really infuriate me.

“The whole thing is upside down. We have the highest train fares in Europe. We need to get serious about public transport.”

A spokesman for Northern Rail said: “We are very aware of the issues raised by commuters travelling from Greenfield and Marsden.

“We set the fares for some journeys on the route and some tickets are set by other train operators or they are products that are priced by the Passenger Transport Executives.

“We want to encourage as many people as possible to use our services from Marsden and Greenfield and we will continue offer affordable fares from both stations and address anomalies where we are able to do so.”

 

[Demps]

National Express (the TOC who offer the £10.00 fare) do offer an Advanced Ticket Alert system which passengers can sign up to (http://www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com/Travel-Information/Advanced-Ticket-Alert/). This will send an email to the passenger as soon as the cheap tickets for the journey they want go on sale and can be very useful.

Hmm you have to insert a rigid date, thats very unhelpfull for my situation. but thanks anyways.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

SouthEastern-465, have you been quoted the £3.20 fare by a ticket machine? I have in the past had to complain to the local TOC about ticket machines in that area being set to charge for too many Zones for some journeys. After escalating the complaint to the MD of SouthEastern, it was sorted for Beckenham Junction and Bromley South, and my family received a few rail travel vouchers as compensation, but this sounds as if the same issue may have appeared for one or more stations on the Bromley North branch.

I can confirm that the Off-Peak Day Return for the full length of the branch, Grove Park - Bromley North, is £2.70. A fare of £3.10 (not £3.20) would be consistent with being charged for one extra zone in error, which was the issue my family had.

John

Thanks for that info mate!

But do you think they'll take me serious as i am only 14?

I would recomend anyone travelcards for travelling around london as you can make as many journeys as you want on busses,trams,and trains from 9 am to 4.30am the next day.

Childs tarvelcard under 16s: £2.00,includes zones 1,2,3,4,5,6.

Adults travel card: £3.80,includes zones 1,2,3,4,5,6.

Or anyone could by a zone 9 travel card which gives you access to places like watford junction etc... for a small charge more.

 

[yorkie]

What Northern say and what is reality is not quite the same...

“We set the fares for some journeys on the route and some tickets are set by other train operators or they are products that are priced by the Passenger Transport Executives.

“We set the ridiculously expensive fares and the reasonable fares are set by the Passenger Transport Executives and we are not doing a thing to lower the expensive ones so bugger off and get a car!"

“We want to encourage as many people as possible to use our services from Marsden and Greenfield and we will continue offer affordable fares from both stations and address anomalies where we are able to do so.”

"We don't give a damn about anyone travelling from Marsden and Greenfield and will continue to ensure the fare remains unaffordable. Go by car if you want it cheaper!"

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm you have to insert a rigid date, thats very unhelpfull for my situation. but thanks anyways.

In that case the plane comparison was null and void