Debit card declined

[rs101]

The reason is because the TOC has no way to determine which cards can/cannot be used - this is due to the payment card industry's helpful decision to withdraw the Solo/Electron brands.

So how are customers supposed to know what sort of card they have? None of my card issuers have made it clear.

I have a prepay MasterCard (Caxton Euro card). None of the documentation mentions it may not be accepted by certain retailers because they cannot perform online authorisation. Should they do so, or should the TOCs advertise they cannot accept prepay cards on board.

 

[najaB]

I have a prepay MasterCard (Caxton Euro card). None of the documentation mentions it may not be accepted by certain retailers because they cannot perform online authorisation.

Ahem...
[quote='How the currency card works' page]
Caxton FX prepaid cards require a merchant to seek authorisation before they provide the goods or services. The majority of European toll roads and bridges do not seek an authorisation and therefore you can't use your Caxton FX currency card at most toll booths.[/quote]Admittedly it doesn't talk about railways, but it does show that they can't be accepted if they aren't able to be authorised online. https://www.caxtonfx.com/currency-cards/how-they-work

 

[Agent_c]

So how are customers supposed to know what sort of card they have? None of my card issuers have made it clear.

I have a prepay MasterCard (Caxton Euro card). None of the documentation mentions it may not be accepted by certain retailers because they cannot perform online authorisation. Should they do so, or should the TOCs advertise they cannot accept prepay cards on board.

All prepay cards are Authorisation required cards. My understanding is not only will they be rejected for offline transactions, but they will also be declined at certain merchants even if they are online if they relate to the sale of an age restricted product. That should be in the terms and conditions.

 

[najaB]

All prepay cards are Authorisation required cards. My understanding is not only will they be rejected for offline transactions, but they will also be declined at certain merchants even if they are online if they relate to the sale of an age restricted product. That should be in the terms and conditions.

Good point, just looked at said T&Cs

In order to protect you and us from fraud, Merchants and ATM operators will seek electronic authorisation before processing any Transaction. If a Merchant or ATM operator is unable to get an electronic authorisation, they may not be able to authorise your Transaction.

 

[Agent_c]

Good point, just looked at said T&Cs

The moral of the story of course being don't rely on a prepaid card, because you might be locked out of your money if there is a problem processing live authorisations. That can happen at any merchant.

 

[cool110]

As for the normal banks, whenever RBS have sent me a new card the the slip it was stuck to said that card numbers beginning with [...] are online only.

 

[Moonshot]

The administrative burden is no different to the current alternative - a penalty fare or report to the prosecutions department. UPFNs are paid online so there is very little back office work required as long as the passengers pay them promptly. There could be a change made to allow UPFNs to be paid at the station, with the TOC reporting payment to ICRAS.

As a guard with Northern myself, I can state that UPFNs are difficult to issue when cards decline, the reason being that myself and all my fellow guards also have door duties to perform, and with stops at 3 or 4 minutes apart on an average service, I m afraid that door safety duties overide the time needed to fill out UPFNs.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Regardless of what the railways do or don't do with their card acceptance equipment, every bank issuing online debit cards should be forced to do that. I've never had such a slip (and there's never been any mention in the T&Cs) for any cards I've held, at least one of which was online only.

 

[sarahj]

This discussion comes along every few months on here:

Basic rule: PAYG will not work
Cars without raised numbers will not work.
Cards that say on the back 'electronic use only will not work.
Cards given to under 16's unless attached to a high end bank account, eg Natwest private banking, will not work.

When cards were issued with Solo or Electron, it was a bit easier, though I did have a discussion with a punter just a few weeks back who presented me with an electron card and would not take 'we dont accept these' as an answer.

Certain lines are rife with folks using cards they know will decline, trying to get us to swipe. Calling for an auth is sometimes just not possible with gaps of 2-3 mins between stations and being unable to make the call when doing dispatch, or due to naff reception. Last time I made such a call, lost the connection 3 times.
Some folks owe the railway £1000's in tickets that have been swiped.

Sometimes for a card to work, all the punter has to do is check their balance in a ATM before boarding.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I can happily pay for a taxi in Sweden using an online card - they manage to have systems which work (and presumably gave a procedure in place for dealing with areas of no signal).

I still don't understand why no TOC appears not to find it necessary to advertise that only a subset of credit/debit cards may be used on board.

A taxi in Sweden is likely to be in an area that has a mobile phone signal. They only require a standard type card reader that can take payment. They do not require their equipment to be ATOC approved.

 

[Llanigraham]

Regardless of what the railways do or don't do with their card acceptance equipment, every bank issuing online debit cards should be forced to do that. I've never had such a slip (and there's never been any mention in the T&Cs) for any cards I've held, at least one of which was online only.

But I bet you haven't read the 4 pages of small printed Terms & Conditions, where it will be stated!

 

[PermitToTravel]

I have, actually. It wasn't.

 

[island]

We're going around in ever decreasing circles.

Problem: certain debit cards do not (always/ever) allow transactions made on trains (easily/at all). This is because (banks don't trust their customers/Avantix Mobile is as old as the hills/the Solo and Electron card schemes were abolished and cut back respectively).

Solution: Someone spends a whole pile of money to upgrade systems/on card fraud/running voice authorisation lines.

Problem with this solution: the incremental fares collected would probably have a poor return on investment.

Have I missed anything?

 

[najaB]

Have I missed anything?

Nope, that pretty much summarises the last hundred or so posts.

 

[DeeGee]

This is the second thread here recently where the general feeling from some is that it's right to treat a customer like a criminal because the information that they have been given by an organisation that isn't the railway is deficient, and where the railway, it seems to me from outside, won't do anything because it isn't their problem, but as a side effect they are able to make a bit more money in penalty fares and such.

These are the Travelex Cash Passport guidelines.

No mention that it wouldn't be accepted to pay French Motorway Tolls, or car parking. I found it wasn't, therefore can summise that I won't be able to use it on a train here. That's not what Travelex say, though.

Thankfully I have an alternative means of payment, but that then cost me quite a lot more

 

[najaB]

These are the Travelex Cash Passport guidelines.

No mention that it wouldn't be accepted to pay French Motorway Tolls, or car parking. I found it wasn't, therefore can summise that I won't be able to use it on a train here. That's not what Travelex say, though.

If, however, you look at the actual T&Cs, you'll find:

Merchants that accept the Card are required to seek authorisation from us for all the transactions that you make and we cannot stop a transaction once authorised. Some merchants may not be able to authorise your transaction if they cannot obtain an online authorisation from us. Examples include some in-flight purchases, car park vending machines and toll booths.

 

[cjmillsnun]

We're going around in ever decreasing circles.

Problem: certain debit cards do not (always/ever) allow transactions made on trains (easily/at all). This is because (banks don't trust their customers/Avantix Mobile is as old as the hills/the Solo and Electron card schemes were abolished and cut back respectively).

Solution: Someone spends a whole pile of money to upgrade systems/on card fraud/running voice authorisation lines.

Problem with this solution: the incremental fares collected would probably have a poor return on investment.

Have I missed anything?

Apart from one thing. Avantix Mobile is being replaced. Whether this will include online authorisation remains to be seen.

However even if it does, it is unlikely to work everywhere as it will require some sort of connection to the banking systems to process them.

 

[DeeGee]

If, however, you look at the actual T&Cs, you'll find:

Yes, it does.

Doesn't mention railways, though

 

[rs101]

So the card issuers tell you the card may not be usable where merchants cannot obtain online authorisation - sensible and helpful of them.

Still haven't seen any explanation why no TOC appears to mention anywhere that online cards cannot be used on board. Surely they should ensure this information is actually communicated to customers?

 

[najaB]

Still haven't seen any explanation why no TOC appears to mention anywhere that online cards cannot be used on board. Surely they should ensure this information is actually communicated to customers?

Would "Online-only cards can be used at stations, but not on trains." actually mean anything to 99.9% of the travelling public? I bet the majority of people would say "But I got/used the card online, what do you mean it isn't valid?"

 

[Via Bank]

Would "Online-only cards can be used at stations, but not on trains." actually mean anything to 99.9% of the travelling public? I bet the majority of people would say "But I got/used the card online, what do you mean it isn't valid?"

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be advertised, at least. Then members of the travelling public who do know (or, for instance, have "OFFLINE USE ONLY" printed on their card) have that information, which is better than not advertising that on-train sales can only be done with offline cards.

Or, even better, a brief explanation? "Because of technical limitations with the ticket machines carried around by conductors, some cards don't work for ticket sales on the train. If your card has 'ONLINE USE ONLY' printed on it, if the numbers are flat and not raised, if your account doesn't have an overdraft facility, or if it was issued to you before your 18th birthday, your card may be 'online-only' and so won't work on the train. If you're not sure if your card is online-only, please check with your bank or card issuer."

I'm struggling to see why the TOC couldn't detail this when it lists payment methods (e.g. on its website.)

 

[najaB]

Or, even better, a brief explanation? "Because of technical limitations, with the ticket machines carried around by conductors, some cards don't work for ticket sales on the train. If your card has 'ONLINE USE ONLY' printed on it , if the numbers are flat and not raised, if your account doesn't have an overdraft facility, or if it was issued to you before your 18th birthday, your card may be 'online-only' and so won't work on the train. If you're not sure if your card is online-only, please check with your bank or card issuer."

I'm struggling to see why the TOC couldn't detail this when it lists payment methods (e.g. on its website.)

Fixed it for you.

As has been established earlier in the thread, some online cards have raised numbers and some offline cards do not, some accounts without overdraft facilities will have offline cards and it is (I think) possible to get offline cards before your 18th birthday.

 

[Via Bank]

Fixed it for you.

As has been established earlier in the thread, some online cards have raised numbers and some offline cards do not, some accounts without overdraft facilities will have offline cards and it is (I think) possible to get offline cards before your 18th birthday.

But, some online-only cards don't have "ONLINE USE ONLY" printed on them My old (white) HSBC one certainly didn't.

 

[crehld]

Fixed it for you.

A sensible solution. Now for action. Perhaps those employed in the railway industry would be in the best position to lobby their employers to get the relevant information changed and updated?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But, some online-only cards don't have "ONLINE USE ONLY" printed on them My old (white) HSBC one certainly didn't.

No neither does mine, and it has raised numbers too! The only reason I know it's online only is because it has been declined in one place only: a train.

 

[34D]

An alternative, radical solution:

Everyone has an ITSO smart card (which can be loaded/topped-up using a smartphone). Every station has ITSO readers.

 

[rs101]

An alternative, radical solution:

Everyone has an ITSO smart card (which can be loaded/topped-up using a smartphone). Every station has ITSO readers.

But that's a sensible, practical and fair solution - why on earth would they implement it?

Seriously though, that does make sense but has a major cost involved.
Short term (and very low cost) would be to actually communicate to customers that certain card types cannot be accepted on board. Changing websites and displaying posters would cost very little indeed. Perhaps work with the card issuers to build a list of card types which are online only or persuade the issuers to notify customers of the card type when a replacement is issued? ATOC are surely in the best position to drive this - they're the ones who stand to increase revenue.

Once they publicise the fact, that not all cards may work on board (and details of how to check) it's surely then easier to take action against those who can't pay?

 

[najaB]

Short term (and very low cost) would be to actually communicate to customers that certain card types cannot be accepted on board. Changing websites and displaying posters would cost very little indeed.

Agreed.

Perhaps work with the card issuers to build a list of card types which are online only or persuade the issuers to notify customers of the card type when a replacement is issued? ATOC are surely in the best position to drive this - they're the ones who stand to increase revenue.

I can see two issues with this suggestion. First off, there are many cards that fall into the 'might/might not' category as there isn't actually a difference in the card, just the way the card is configured. I think it was mentioned upthread that it's possible for a given card to be switched between modes.

The second, and bigger issue, is that you're suggesting that the banks/card issuers make changes to their business practices due to their cards working exactly how they intend them to work. What's in it for them?

Once they publicise the fact, that not all cards may work on board (and details of how to check) it's surely then easier to take action against those who can't pay?

Agreed.

 

[rs101]

I'm not suggesting a change in business practices by the card issuers, just that they improve communication slightly. After all, it's already been posted that some advise that their cards cannot be used for certain transactions. If ATOC approached them and asked them to also state that they may not work for onboard rail ticket sales too, that's surely just common sense



I'm just trying to come up with practical solutions to ensure that those who want to pay can do so and those who are deliberately avoiding it are penalised. The current setup simply doesn't do this.

Ideally, automated online authorisation should be used where signal allows (the vast majority of the UK rail network) falling back to the current system of penalty fares/UFN as appropriate.

 

[najaB]

I'm not suggesting a change in business practices by the card issuers, just that they improve communication slightly. After all, it's already been posted that some advise that their cards cannot be used for certain transactions. If ATOC approached them and asked them to also state that they may not work for onboard rail ticket sales too, that's surely just common sense.

That is still a change. The ones who don't make it clear that offline transactions won't work have their reasons for doing so, and even the ones that do will have to change their documentation/website which is a cost (admittedly a tiny one), for a non-problem from their point of view.

Edit: I'm not saying your idea isn't valid, just trying to see what the benefit is for the card issuers.

 

[rs101]

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear in my post - I was suggesting the TOCs, not the card issuers, change their websites and display posters warning that not all cards can be used on board.
The issuers could, if appropriate, mention in their literature that the cards require each transaction to be approved online.