December 2021 Timetable change

[GoneSouth]

It wouldn't surprise me if the GWR towards Brighton doesn't get dropped altogether at some point, citing that passengers can use the Southern services if they want to travel to Brighton.

(Certainly will please the green party getting rid of dirty diesels from Brighton)

But they’re green diesels

 

[Kite159]

But they’re green diesels

Unless one of the blue 166s turn up

I reckon they will use a similar excuse to SWR are using to ditch the Bristol services. Which will be a shame, especially on a Sunday when the Southern services are so slow due to calling everywhere

 

[dk1]

It wouldn't surprise me if the GWR towards Brighton doesn't get dropped altogether at some point, citing that passengers can use the Southern services if they want to travel to Brighton.

(Certainly will please the green party getting rid of dirty diesels from Brighton)

I think that’s been assumed as going to happen since the 90s. Hopefully it will just keep on going.

 

[387star]

It wouldn't surprise me if the GWR towards Brighton doesn't get dropped altogether at some point, citing that passengers can use the Southern services if they want to travel to Brighton.

(Certainly will please the green party getting rid of dirty diesels from Brighton)

This would be very unpopular. It's a very busy service and GWR are pushing for one or two more a day!

It's true new drivers at Fratton don't sign Brighton yet but they don't sign Eastleigh Cardiff or Bristol Parkway either!! We live in unusual times...

 

[Peter749]

Will be loco hauled not 802. There are ECS workings which are shown in RTT as below:

1F52 (0534 SCA-LIV) departs as 5H52 (0915 LIV-Longsight).

1E45 (1725 LIV-SCA) forms off 5F45 (1506 Longsight-LIV) arriving at 1653

Thanks - I don't think they were in when I first looked

 

[Mainline421]

Because XC have indicated they intend to continue the current timetable for the foreseeable future.

Is this from a public source? Their publicity still indicates this is a temporary situation even if they don't seem very interested in fixing it.

Must require significantly fewer drivers each day which leaves me wondering what the rest are doing...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Is this from a public source? Their publicity still indicates this is a temporary situation even if they don't seem very interested in fixing it.

Must require significantly fewer drivers each day which leaves me wondering what the rest are doing...

You have to remember that there are still drivers completing training to replace those who retired during the pandemic.

Operators also have to remember sickness levels are currently higher than usual as ‘self-isolating’ is still a new thing so planning to use driver numbers at the same level as pre-Covid is not robust.

 

[Watershed]

Is this from a public source? Their publicity still indicates this is a temporary situation even if they don't seem very interested in fixing it.

Must require significantly fewer drivers each day which leaves me wondering what the rest are doing...

I don't know about you, but I woiuldn't call March 2020 till (at the very least) December 2022 a "temporary" change... To be fair, they probably did not realise this back when this all started. But it should have become clear pretty early on that this was where things were heading.

 

[Starmill]

Must require significantly fewer drivers each day which leaves me wondering what the rest are doing...

Presumably some combination of having left the business either through retirement, having found a better job elsewhere, or having been medically discharged, being promoted to instructor, or just taking up work that would have been done on overtime before.

 

[Class 33]

Doesn't look like they're bringing back the additional GWR Bristol-London express services even from the December 2021 timetable. A great shame. I waited over 20 years for these services to be introduced/re-introduced. They were finally introduced in December 2019, but barely for only a few months!

 

[dk1]

Doesn't look like they're bringing back the additional GWR Bristol-London express services even from the December 2021 timetable. A great shame. I waited over 20 years for these services to be introduced/re-introduced. They were finally introduced in December 2019, but barely for only a few months!

A recent magazine interview with GWR stated that there was a desire to still bring in the Bristol Superfasts although exactly when this will be was unknown.

 

[Bikeman78]

I see that Crosscountry is still missing out Winchester. How long does it propose to keep that up? Are the trains anywhere near full south of Basingstoke?

 

[Llandudno]

I see that Crosscountry is still missing out Winchester. How long does it propose to keep that up? Are the trains anywhere near full south of Basingstoke?

And still not calling at Chesterfield either even though the 9 coach trains wait time at Sheffield or Derby stations to prevent early running.

 

[dk1]

I see that Crosscountry is still missing out Winchester. How long does it propose to keep that up? Are the trains anywhere near full south of Basingstoke?

And still not calling at Chesterfield either even though the 9 coach trains wait time at Sheffield or Derby stations to prevent early running.

Absolutely crazy. You can add Audley End as well.

 

[Bikeman78]

And still not calling at Chesterfield either even though the 9 coach trains wait time at Sheffield or Derby stations to prevent early running.

Mad isn't it? Anyone from Winchester or Chesterfield wanting to travel on Crosscountry is forced to clog up other TOCs trains and change en route, often with quite a long wait.

 

[Ianno87]

Mad isn't it? Anyone from Winchester or Chesterfield wanting to travel on Crosscountry is forced to clog up other TOCs trains and change en route, often with quite a long wait.

I'd still be interested to know the proportion of users from these stations on a typical XC train: Percentage just doing a local journey versus percentage doing a genuine XC journey.

In Audley End's case, the percentage going anywhere other than Cambridge or Stansted is probably tiny, and those passengers can easily be accommodated on Greater Anglia.

Not forgetting that more people may actually be attracted to XC for longer distance journeys if the trains are less clogged up with people only doing local journeys.

 

[cle]

In Audley End's case, the percentage going anywhere other than Cambridge or Stansted is probably tiny, and those passengers can easily be accommodated on Greater Anglia.

Is that not a legal thing? currently eased? Or is that something of a rail urban myth (like Stockport) ?

 

[dk1]

I'd still be interested to know the proportion of users from these stations on a typical XC train: Percentage just doing a local journey versus percentage doing a genuine XC journey.

In Audley End's case, the percentage going anywhere other than Cambridge or Stansted is probably tiny, and those passengers can easily be accommodated on Greater Anglia.

Not forgetting that more people may actually be attracted to XC for longer distance journeys if the trains are less clogged up with people only doing local journeys.

I simply don’t understand the logic of it regardless of what passengers can be accommodated on what. Obviously it’s only known to XC. They seem to like being in pandemic mode. It’s so strange.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'd still be interested to know the proportion of users from these stations on a typical XC train: Percentage just doing a local journey versus percentage doing a genuine XC journey.

In Audley End's case, the percentage going anywhere other than Cambridge or Stansted is probably tiny, and those passengers can easily be accommodated on Greater Anglia.

Not forgetting that more people may actually be attracted to XC for longer distance journeys if the trains are less clogged up with people only doing local journeys.

Winchester to Reading or Birmingham seems like a journey that people would want to do. I don't see why local passengers would home in on XC because most of the alternatives are just as fast. I certainly don't think they would wedge out an 8 or 9 car train. Do they ever intend to resume stopping in Winchester/Chesterfield? If not in December, then when?

 

[Ianno87]

Winchester to Reading or Birmingham seems like a journey that people would want to do. I don't see why local passengers would home in on XC because most of the alternatives are just as fast. I certainly don't think they would wedge out an 8 or 9 car train. Do they ever intend to resume stopping in Winchester/Chesterfield? If not in December, then when?

I grant that Winchester in particular strikes me as an odd stop to continue omitting.

 

[infobleep]

I'd still be interested to know the proportion of users from these stations on a typical XC train: Percentage just doing a local journey versus percentage doing a genuine XC journey.

In Audley End's case, the percentage going anywhere other than Cambridge or Stansted is probably tiny, and those passengers can easily be accommodated on Greater Anglia.

Not forgetting that more people may actually be attracted to XC for longer distance journeys if the trains are less clogged up with people only doing local journeys.

How busy are the Greater Anglia trains as surely that should be taken into account? Especially now it's GBR.

 

[Bald Rick]

How busy are the Greater Anglia trains as surely that should be taken into account? Especially now it's GBR.

Not very.

 

[dk1]

How busy are the Greater Anglia trains as surely that should be taken into account? Especially now it's GBR.

Business is building quite strongly but reliant on the airport that still seems to be lagging behind.

 

[Jimini]

XC are stopping at Winchester, but for some reason it's an 'unadvertised' stop (see RTT link below). Same as Brockenhurst.

Realtime Trains - 1O08 0727 Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I've heard people ask the TM about this a few times in the past couple of months and they've confirmed that the train will be stopping at Winchester to the passengers who have asked the question. I always alight at Reading heading south so haven't witnessed either stop personally.

 

[jfollows]

XC are stopping at Winchester, but for some reason it's an 'unadvertised' stop (see RTT link below). Same as Brockenhurst.

Realtime Trains - 1O08 0727 Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I've heard people ask the TM about this a few times in the past couple of months and they've confirmed that the train will be stopping at Winchester to the passengers who have asked the question. I always alight at Reading heading south so haven't witnessed either stop personally.

It'd be wise to take care - XC isn't stopping at Wilmslow, but 1H14 06:53 Birmingham-Manchester (which has always been routed via Wilmslow to free up a path for an additional Stoke-Manchester rush hour service) shows as "Service stop unadvertised" if you look in a future timetable (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G29255/2021-10-15/detailed for tomorrow, for example) but in reality it simply doesn't stop (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G29255/2021-10-14/detailed#allox_id=0 for today, for example).
The up evening peak service is similar.

Likewise, your service example from yesterday appears not to have called at Winchester either (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G29294/2021-10-13/detailed#allox_id=0).

EDIT That's my understanding, but I'd be more than happy to be shown to be wrong!

 

[Watershed]

It'd be wise to take care - XC isn't stopping at Wilmslow, but 1H14 06:53 Birmingham-Manchester (which has always been routed via Wilmslow to free up a path for an additional Stoke-Manchester rush hour service) shows as "Service stop unadvertised" if you look in a future timetable (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G29255/2021-10-15/detailed for tomorrow, for example) but in reality it simply doesn't stop (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G29255/2021-10-14/detailed#allox_id=0 for today, for example).
The up evening peak service is similar.

Likewise, your service example from yesterday appears not to have called at Winchester either (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G29294/2021-10-13/detailed#allox_id=0).

EDIT That's my understanding, but I'd be more than happy to be shown to be wrong!

Can't comment on Winchester but 1H14 definitely doesn't stop at Wilmslow in practice.

 

[tommy2215]

CrossCountry trains always zoom fast through their 'unadvertised stops', unless maybe there is huge disruption affecting other services there. But even when there are mass cancellations, its very rare that the XC trains will genuinely stop.

 

[Bikeman78]

XC are stopping at Winchester, but for some reason it's an 'unadvertised' stop (see RTT link below). Same as Brockenhurst.

Realtime Trains - 1O08 0727 Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I've heard people ask the TM about this a few times in the past couple of months and they've confirmed that the train will be stopping at Winchester to the passengers who have asked the question. I always alight at Reading heading south so haven't witnessed either stop personally.

If you look at mid December they are shown as public stops or passing times. I can't see any unadvertised stops.

 

[Starmill]

In Audley End's case, the percentage going anywhere other than Cambridge or Stansted is probably tiny, and those passengers can easily be accommodated on Greater Anglia.

Not forgetting that more people may actually be attracted to XC for longer distance journeys if the trains are less clogged up with people only doing local journeys.

While this is true, it also goes for Cambridge or Ely to Stansted Airport just as much as it does Audley End to Stansted Airport or Cambridge. The number of people for Stansted Airport from March and Peterborough is small though, and the numbers from Stamford, Oakham, Melton Mowbray, Leicester, Nuneaton, Coleshill Parkway and Birmingham all together are also small. So if you were to take this attitude you'd withdraw all CrossCountry services between Cambridge and Stansted Airport.

Of course, that would save significant train crew resources and allow more capacity to be redeployed along the busiest parts of the route, so perhaps it is in fact the more sensible course of action.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2021 ==

Can't comment on Winchester but 1H14 definitely doesn't stop at Wilmslow in practice.

These sorts of changes are certainly interesting, because without the pandemic they'd have been impossible. Same if we'd gone back to the "old way" as some predicted / encouraged / desired.

If the early 2020 number of office commuters returned it would effectively have to pick people up at Wilmslow because there's simply no alternative - the 0748 Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly is realistically four cars max, which it has, and definitely couldn't accommodate the hundred or more people who would have boarded the CrossCountry at Wilmslow. As it stands there's not an enormous need to stop because the 0748 has free space even after Levenshulme.

 

[Toffee Apples]

While this is true, it also goes for Cambridge or Ely to Stansted Airport just as much as it does Audley End to Stansted Airport or Cambridge. The number of people for Stansted Airport from March and Peterborough is small though, and the numbers from Stamford, Oakham, Melton Mowbray, Leicester, Nuneaton, Coleshill Parkway and Birmingham all together are also small. So if you were to take this attitude you'd withdraw all CrossCountry services between Cambridge and Stansted Airport.

Having worked at one of those named stations I can confirm. The biggest flows always seemed to be between the Birmingham and Peterborough portion, I would say. There were always passengers who wanted Cambridge as well, but it did pale in comparison to those who were doing journeys between intermediate stations.

If there was one thing I could wish for, now living myself in Melton Mowbray, was that XC would out the Stanstead portion and terminate at Cambridge. Logic would then dictate more units and crews available to work more services to allow LEI to CBG to have two trains per hour.

The demand for better rail availability in east Leicestershire and Rutland is still there, and if the service was there it would get used more than it does now. Even for Leisure travellers, the logistics of getting a train from Melton or Oakham, to say Birmingham, are a no brainer, plus it's slightly quicker by train than it is car, unless you've got a lead foot.