December 2023 Timetable Change

[Baz2000]

People are reporting what is in open data feeds, not in published timetables.

For example, this is the service currently shown at Birmingham New Street on 14 December https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...23-12-14/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

thanks i will have look.

 

[Peter0124]

Looks like the Barrhead service will use an Electric unit (probably a 380) and use the same unit all day working the hourly stoppers.

 

[davehsug]

Ah, I see.

It appears the "wobble" service is truncated to a Crewe-Stafford shuttle all week, no longer continuing to Birmingham. I'm a bit confused by this, as wasn't this service to be routed via the Camp Hill line when it opens? Or are there no paths for it on the WCML until it does hence the shuttle?

Wasn't this also introduced to stop some of the ridiculous overcrowding on XC services between Stoke/Stafford & Birmingham?

 

[LittleRedTrain]

The early Saturday morning Chiltern services from Banbury and High Wycombe to Birmingham Moor St appear to have gone.
From Banbury this makes the first northbound train the 0658 XC instead of the 0600 Chiltern.

 

[hexagon789]

Looks like the Barrhead service will use an Electric unit (probably a 380) and use the same unit all day working the hourly stoppers.

Yes, that was mentioned in the Barrhead/East Kilbride electrification thread. It should a 4-car usually, one already spare from the Ayrshire/Inverclyde changes in May.

Looks like workings are accelerated by 2 mins overall as well, which I didn't actually expect.

 

[Tayway]

I really can't fathom what ScotRail are thinking by adding in four or five extra stops to every other Glasgow to Aberdeen service, in order to save the grand total of one DMU between Dundee and Arbroath. You could easily operate a shuttle with one unit if the third platform at Arbroath was reinstated (journey time is 24 minutes or thereabouts), or better still tack the shuttle on to the Glasgow to Dundee semi-fast as was originally intended.

 

[hexagon789]

I really can't fathom what ScotRail are thinking by adding in four or five extra stops to every other Glasgow to Aberdeen service, in order to save the grand total of one DMU between Dundee and Arbroath. You could easily operate a shuttle with one unit if the third platform at Arbroath was reinstated (journey time is 24 minutes or thereabouts), or better still tack the shuttle on to the Glasgow to Dundee semi-fast as was originally intended.

It's 3 stops max... and because many of the services have lots of pathing currently from already losing stops at Carnoustie, Laurencekirk and Stonehaven in a previous timetable change, the actual time differences are modest (mostly 5 or 6 mins, though the 1041 is worse affected as an example).

 

[Some guy]

Looks like the 17:05 Avanti Blackpool service is scheduled as an 805

 

[Bald Rick]

Looks like the 17:05 Avanti Blackpool service is scheduled as an 805

Timed for an 805.

 

[hexagon789]

Looks like the 17:05 Avanti Blackpool service is scheduled as an 805

So are almost all the Liverpools down as 80x as before, but there are still no 80x to run them yet

 

[Bletchleyite]

So are almost all the Liverpools as before, but there are still no 805s to run them yet

Liverpools will be 807, not 805. As will the second Birmingham with a couple of exceptions. Pendolinos are presently running in those paths, though - with a decidedly leisurely feel! (Having done the "second" Liverpool, which is the only one at present, a couple of times, it really does feel quite slow).

 

[hexagon789]

Liverpools will be 807, not 805. As will the second Birmingham with a couple of exceptions. Pendolinos are presently running in those paths, though - with a decidedly leisurely feel! (Having done the "second" Liverpool, which is the only one at present, a couple of times, it really does feel quite slow).

Done it again, the timing load says 80x. Of course I should remember the electrics are 7-car...

In fact, the Blackpool is 80x as well. So shouldn't it be an 807 rather than 805 (ignoring my carried error before).

 

[anthony263]

Merseyrail, Chiltern and TfW also available tonight.

Haven't seen much of a difference with what tfw are running now

 

[moonarrow458]

Further Chiltern reductions for Stourbridge with the 0644 Stourbridge Junction to London on Saturdays being curtailed to start from Birmingham Moor Street at 0714 running ECS from Stourbridge to Moor Street.

Other than avoiding a reversal at Stourbridge Jnct does this actually save any money or is it just an inconvenience to passengers for marginal operational benefit? Do Chiltern have guards based at Stourbridge or do they travel to and from elsewhere to work the Stourbridge services?

 

[kingston_toon]

It looks as though every second Glasgow to Aberdeen each way calls additional at Broughty Ferry, Monifieth and Carnoustie adding 6-12 mins. Plus there are selected calls at Laurencekirk.

Other changes I can see in the West are:

Cathcart Circle back to hourly all day.
Shotts line semi-fasts back.

Looks like 2tph Gourock on Sunday afternoons, with the second running fast! So while the Mon-Sat Gourock service remains the worst in my lifetime, the Sunday service will be the best!

 

[splashoutradio]

Hi all have you a link for the new timetables as i cant find one please, for Avanti west coast , west midlands/lnw & cross country trains, thanks in advance.

I'll compile some very early drafts on Saturday, and upload them to the RailwayData website, if of any use?

 

[43055]

Haven't seen much of a difference with what tfw are running now

Chester to Liverpool is showing as going back to hourly.

 

[hexagon789]

Looks like 2tph Gourock on Sunday afternoons, with the second running fast! So while the Mon-Sat Gourock service remains the worst in my lifetime, the Sunday service will be the best!

Interesting, because certainly the 2019 offering was just the one all stations Gourock per hour on Sundays.

Presumably, as with the uplift to the E&G frequency on Saturdays, the higher passenger numbers on the weekends is behind the Sunday uplift in Inverclyde here.

 

[Kite159]

.

Meanwhile, the fife circle is changing. Perth to Edinburgh services run via kirkcaldy all stations but no direct kirkcaldy to glenrothes/cowdenbeath

It's like that at the moment. Other than a couple of services in the peak times (and Sundays) there is no direct link between Kirkcaldy & Glenrothes

 

[Llandudno]

Interesting to see Transport for Wales have scheduled a half hourly Bidston - Wrexham service from December.

Believe that when I see it, they can’t even run the current hourly service properly!

Shame that they haven’t improved the evening service, irregularly hourly type service and the last train from Bidston, means leaving Liverpool around 2230 in order to catch it!

 

[MikeWM]

Wouldn't be a timetable thread if I didn't point out that it appears Ely *still* doesn't get a later last train from London/Cambridge on Mondays through Saturdays, as we were promised in the 2018 timetable change.

Or that it still gets a ludicrously late first train on Sundays, with nothing in any direction before 0857 and no way to get to London before 1000 - last time I looked, I think that's just about the latest first London arrival from anywhere in the NSE area that has direct trains. (Edit : ok, Weymouth is later, but that's considerably further away!)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Wouldn't be a timetable thread if I didn't point out that it appears Ely *still* doesn't get a later last train from London/Cambridge on Mondays through Saturdays, as we were promised in the 2018 timetable change.

Or that it still gets a ludicrously late first train on Sundays, with nothing in any direction before 0857 and no way to get to London before 1000 - last time I looked, I think that's just about the latest first London arrival from anywhere in the NSE area that has direct trains. (Edit : ok, Weymouth is later, but that's considerably further away!)

First trains arriving in London around 10.00 (or later) on Sundays isn’t that rare for the longer distance NSE routes:

Newbury (with change at Reading) - 09:52 arrival. First direct train arrives London - 10:59

Bexhill (with a change at St Leonards) - 10:07. First direct train arrives London - 10.30

Kings’s Lynn and Ely - 10:11 arrival

Poole and Bournemouth - 10:11 arrival

Harwich (with a change at Manningtree) - 10:36 arrival

Uckfield (with a change at Oxted) - 11:09

 

[Class 466]

Are we not having any warnings not to rely on these uploads like we had last year, as things can change?

The TPE one will probably be unreliable, as what will be uploaded will be what was bid earlier in the year, not reflecting any possible "recovery" timetable.

I'm led to believe from my sources within that when it uploads in a few weeks time it'll be the recovery timetable.

 

[MikeWM]

First trains arriving in London around 10.00 (or later) on Sundays isn’t that rare for the longer distance NSE routes:

Newbury (with change at Reading) - 09:52 arrival. First direct train arrives London - 10:59
Bexhill (with a change at St Leonards) - 10:07. First direct train arrives London - 10.30
Kings’s Lynn and Ely - 10:11 arrival
Poole and Bournemouth - 10:11 arrival
Harwich (with a change at Manningtree) - 10:36 arrival
Uckfield (with a change at Oxted) - 11:09

Thanks - for comparison, it would be interesting to have some idea of how busy those trains are. The 0857 off Ely is in my experience always very busy, implying to me that an earlier service would easily be justified.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Thanks - for comparison, it would be interesting to have some idea of how busy those trains are. The 0857 off Ely is in my experience always very busy, implying to me that an earlier service would easily be justified.

The reason for the late startup is the need for maintenance work to take place. Passengers generally require earlier arrivals in London on Monday to Saturdays than Sundays so that’s why the service starts up later on that basis running earlier trains probably cannot be justified as the maintenance work would need to be done at another time which could potentially be more distruptive.

The early trains tend to be very busy, but this can be allowed for by running long trains. For example the first train from Bournemouth is 10 cars.

 

[Greybeard33]

I was wondering that, I'm sure they'll be cracking on with electrification works, and maybe even starting works for the new platform at Salford Crescent and turn-backs at Salford Central as there won't be anything running through those stations.

RTT shows freights scheduled through Salford Crescent and Salford Central on January and February Saturdays. Both the Brindle Heath binliners and the Tunstead - Brindle Heath stone trains.

 

[MikeWM]

The reason for the late startup is the need for maintenance work to take place. Passengers generally require earlier arrivals in London on Monday to Saturdays than Sundays so that’s why the service starts up later on that basis running earlier trains probably cannot be justified as the maintenance work would need to be done at another time which could potentially be more distruptive.

Yes, I know, but for example the line from Cambridge to Royston only has 5 hours between last Saturday and first Sunday train. Cambridge to Audley End has 7 hours. Does Cambridge to Ely really need 8.5 hours each week?

 

[PGAT]

Just spotted an extra Thameslink service on the East Grinstead line. One from Bedford leaving at 0703 and a return to London Bridge leaving East Grinstead at 0914

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I'm led to believe from my sources within that when it uploads in a few weeks time it'll be the recovery timetable.

Which rumour has it, as far as the North Route is concerned, is:

1tph Saltburn to Manchester Airport
1tph Newcastle to Liverpool
1tph Hull to Manchester Piccadilly

Supplemented by:

1 stopping service ph Huddersfield to Manchester (with 2 am journeys and 2 pm journeys extended to and from Wakefield / Castleford)
1 shuttle ph Scarborough to York

The Leeds - Huddersfield stopping service is withdrawn and stops added on to the Hull to Manchester service instead.
The hourly Manchester Piccadilly to Newcastle or Scarbrough service is withdrawn.

The end result is basically 2 x express trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester instead of the 4tph now. The Hull cannot be counted as an express as it has turned in to a stopping train. Liverpool drops to 1 tph. Newcastle drops to 1 tph. Scarborough is just a shuttle to York. Intermediate stations between Huddersfield and Stalybridge drop to 1 tph all day, as opposed to 2tph at certain times now.

There are rumours of "peak time extras" but I can bet that these will be at the old pre-covid peak time and not the new peak time (i.e. all day Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays) so won't actually be of much use.

If the above is true then it is a recipe for chaos and disaster as there will be chronic and severe overcrowding at the busy times - and that's even assuming they are all worked as 5 car 802s or 6 car 185s - which of course they won't, 3 car 185s will pop up all over the place.

The cynic in me thinks we will never see any service uplift for years afterwards and the reduction in service will be used as an excuse to have long term reductions.

I am hoping when it appears that it won't be as bad as it looks - but I fear it will. It will also prove mind numbingly boring and depressing for staff too - there will be far too many people with nothing to do just sitting around at many depots.

 

[hux385]

I really can't fathom what ScotRail are thinking by adding in four or five extra stops to every other Glasgow to Aberdeen service, in order to save the grand total of one DMU between Dundee and Arbroath.

I wonder if the extra DMU would then be used on the Inter7City routes along with the Barrhead DMU? Then this would take pressure off the HSTs?