Devon & Cornwall mini-franchise to be considered

[jw]

George Osborne floats the idea of a mini franchise for Devon & Cornwall. Just talk from a politician in an election year or a serious suggestion?

The Prime Minister and Chancellor are to make visits across Cornwall, Devon and Somerset today to unveil a “long-term economic plan for the South West”.

The plan is designed to help offset the dominance of London and show the region has more to offer than “stunning coast and beaches”.

They say a new “dedicated” rail franchise for Devon and Cornwall to deliver better local services and a second inland mainline in Devon will be considered.

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Cha...billion-plan/story-25923241-detail/story.html

 

[21C101]

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Chancellor-Prime-Minister-unveil-6-4billion-plan/story-25923241-detail/story.html

Also saying they want to reopen via Okehampton (presumably single track with a diversionary water main on the old up line)

Wonder if it will include the Waterloo Exeter (Plymouth?) service and be run by Stagecoach. Perhaps it will be called South West Trains?

 

[PHILIPE]

Is there an election approaching by any chance ?

 

[telstarbox]

Agreed Philipe!

 

[Busaholic]

Having clicked on that link and read the recycled vacuous garbage for myself my eye strayed down the page to this headline:-
GHOST SHIP FULL OF CANNIBAL RATS DOESN'T CRASH INTO PLYMOUTH
Just had to share that earth-shattering news with you - a classic even by local paper standards.Presumably a full list of places this imaginary ship hasn't crashed into is available on request, starting with Abergavenny.

My apologies for going off-topic

 

[Bald Rick]

Also saying they want to reopen via Okehampton (presumably single track with a diversionary water main on the old up line)

Old joke

 

[NSEFAN]

What's wrong with the set up in place? Creating another franchise would only add to the fragmentation and cost, all for the sake of putting a different name on the trains so people can feel special.

 

[SWTH]

Eh? Surely it's just re-creating the Wessex Trains franchise?

Utterly pointless and a waste of money.

 

[route:oxford]

Having clicked on that link and read the recycled vacuous garbage for myself my eye strayed down the page to this headline:-
GHOST SHIP FULL OF CANNIBAL RATS DOESN'T CRASH INTO PLYMOUTH
Just had to share that earth-shattering news with you - a classic even by local paper standards.Presumably a full list of places this imaginary ship hasn't crashed into is available on request, starting with Abergavenny.

My apologies for going off-topic

You need to read up on the "ghost ship" thing. They are quite real.

A mini-franchise isn't such a bad thing. There is a clear desperation to allow some form of "not-for-profit" organisation to operate a rail franchise.

This might be the right route for Go-op.

 

[The Planner]

GoOp are still sniffing round their original route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eh? Surely it's just re-creating the Wessex Trains franchise?

Utterly pointless and a waste of money.

Very small, almost single-route but sometimes two or three routes, mini-franchise type things seem to work very well in Germany. Not to mention of course Merseyrail.

Though the integration with fGW mainline would be lost, which as these are heavily touristed routes this might be too big a loss.

Neil

 

[NotATrainspott]

It would make more sense to have specific minimum quality standards set in the main Great Western franchise for the South West. It would be the same TOC, so it would have economies of scale, but it wouldn't be possible for them to ignore the region entirely when making up plans.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would make more sense to have specific minimum quality standards set in the main Great Western franchise for the South West. It would be the same TOC, so it would have economies of scale, but it wouldn't be possible for them to ignore the region entirely when making up plans.

Or we do follow the German model where local services are entirely the responsibility of a more local level of Government. It does seem to be proving increasingly popular - TfL, Merseytravel, the forthcoming Transport North, West Midlands, Wales, Scotland, .... Though the risk is we lose some safeguards on rural routes if we aren't careful.

You'd then just have West Coast, East Coast, EMT IC, Anglia IC (debatable), GW IC and XC as national franchises.

Neil

 

[TheEdge]

Or we do follow the German model where local services are entirely the responsibility of a more local level of Government. It does seem to be proving increasingly popular - TfL, Merseytravel, the forthcoming Transport North, West Midlands, Wales, Scotland, .... Though the risk is we lose some safeguards on rural routes if we aren't careful.

Which does seem to be a risk of that model. I've been building stuff for the Railworks Koblenz-Cologne route and as I've been reading seen a few examples where RB services have been cut short because local governments have just said no to paying. Services on between Remagen and Wuppertal now stop in Bonn rather than going all the way to Remagen because one local government refused to pay for its section.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which does seem to be a risk of that model. I've been building stuff for the Railworks Koblenz-Cologne route and as I've been reading seen a few examples where RB services have been cut short because local governments have just said no to paying. Services on between Remagen and Wuppertal now stop in Bonn rather than going all the way to Remagen because one local government refused to pay for its section.

Possibly quite a high risk given the levels of cuts to local bus services of late. Some Councils have completely withdrawn all subsidy. The effects of that on rail services would be disastrous, particularly as it's much harder to get a rail service back once you've lost it - bus services can always be reinstated in better financial times.

Neil

 

[richw]

Or we do follow the German model where local services are entirely the responsibility of a more local level of Government. It does seem to be proving increasingly popular - TfL, Merseytravel, the forthcoming Transport North, West Midlands, Wales, Scotland, .... Though the risk is we lose some safeguards on rural routes if we aren't careful.

You'd then just have West Coast, East Coast, EMT IC, Anglia IC (debatable), GW IC and XC as national franchises.

Neil

Have you seen what cornwall council have done to the bus services. Don't let them anywhere near the trains!

 

[Busaholic]

You need to read up on the "ghost ship" thing. They are quite real.

A mini-franchise isn't such a bad thing. There is a clear desperation to allow some form of "not-for-profit" organisation to operate a rail franchise.

This might be the right route for Go-op.

Perhaps I've read up a bit more than you on the 'ghost ship' - this story first made the Plymouth Evening Herald on January 27th 2014, except it then said 'could be about to crash', and this a whole further year from when it cast adrift from near the Irish coast.Scaremongering at its most parochial.

The topic itself is amost recycled a year from when Cameron fell upon Devon promising the earth = a year which has seen almost no action beyond the repair and minimal strengthening of the Dawlish environs.

From the Cornish point of view a regular hourly service through from Penzance to Plymouth would be a start, with peak extras, but it can't happen because the carriages aren't available and won't be for the foreseeable future. When I moved to Penzance there was a 17.05 or thereabouts train starting in Truro and three other trains between 16'45 and 18.00 bound for Penzance: now between 16.26 and 18.47 there is one, despite more passengers travelling. Perhaps Cornwall Council and Plymouth City Council should get together and lease a couple of trains themselves, so long as no profits went to FGW.

 

[richw]

Perhaps I've read up a bit more than you on the 'ghost ship' - this story first made the Plymouth Evening Herald on January 27th 2014, except it then said 'could be about to crash', and this a whole further year from when it cast adrift from near the Irish coast.Scaremongering at its most parochial.

The topic itself is amost recycled a year from when Cameron fell upon Devon promising the earth = a year which has seen almost no action beyond the repair and minimal strengthening of the Dawlish environs.

From the Cornish point of view a regular hourly service through from Penzance to Plymouth would be a start, with peak extras, but it can't happen because the carriages aren't available and won't be for the foreseeable future. When I moved to Penzance there was a 17.05 or thereabouts train starting in Truro and three other trains between 16'45 and 18.00 bound for Penzance: now between 16.26 and 18.47 there is one, despite more passengers travelling. Perhaps Cornwall Council and Plymouth City Council should get together and lease a couple of trains themselves, so long as no profits went to FGW.

I work at newham, and to finish at 1700, it's not possible to walk and catch the the 1723, making the train an unrealistic option unless I don't get home until just after 1900. St Austell and stations East don't even have a true peak service to go west between 1700 & 1800.
Driving leaves the only option unless I want to lose my evening. Driving gets me home about 1745 normally due to truro traffic, so a 1730 train would get me home about the same time as driving. (I live 100 yards or so from redruth station so the walking time at that end is a minute or two at most). The train is a much cheaper option. £15 a week roughly from memory, yet petrol is probably close to £25 a week (I have a big petrol car)

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the Cornish point of view a regular hourly service through from Penzance to Plymouth would be a start, with peak extras, but it can't happen because the carriages aren't available and won't be for the foreseeable future. When I moved to Penzance there was a 17.05 or thereabouts train starting in Truro and three other trains between 16'45 and 18.00 bound for Penzance: now between 16.26 and 18.47 there is one, despite more passengers travelling. Perhaps Cornwall Council and Plymouth City Council should get together and lease a couple of trains themselves, so long as no profits went to FGW.

The problem is there aren't any spare DMUs.

Neil

 

[dysonsphere]

The problem is there aren't any spare DMUs.

Neil

Well isnt time someone bought some

 

[Simon11]

Not unless you have large deep pockets. New DMU won't be cheap, as they may not get full use over their lifetime. This is mostly down to electrification and new restrictions on engines.

 

[455driver]

Not unless you have large deep pockets. New DMU won't be cheap, as they may not get full use over their lifetime. This is mostly down to electrification and new restrictions on engines.

Which was the same reason given for the HSTs being built with slam doors and dump toilets!
Every InterCity route was to be electrified and the APT would take over within a decade, that was from 1976!
I dont think the plan worked!

I would hazard a guess that any leasing company building (decent) DMUs today would get a full return (and then some) on their investment, the railways/politicians dont really do long term strategy and I reckon a large numbers of DMUs will still be around in 30 years time!

 

[RPI]

Well isnt time someone bought some

Yeah I'm sure we can just pop down to our local show room and buy a couple.

On a serious note, bad idea having a smaller franchise. As it is now the profitable parts of the business effectively subsidise the non profit making part of the business (local services), now other than the farce that was cap and collar under the previous franchise agreement, the current Greater Western franchise requires no central government subsidy, yes there are one or two services that are sponsored locally, such as the additional Paignton shuttles, but a franchise that consisted of just the local stuff would need massive subsidy and cost the taxpayer a lot more, surely a backward step? Also having a large pool of units across the southwest allows for seasonal strengthening by units from Bristol coming down in the summer when the commuter trains are quieter, also using HST'S on summer unit diagrams etc, all flexibility that would be lost.

 

[fgwrich]

Yeah I'm sure we can just pop down to our local show room and buy a couple.

On a serious note, bad idea having a smaller franchise. As it is now the profitable parts of the business effectively subsidise the non profit making part of the business (local services), now other than the farce that was cap and collar under the previous franchise agreement, the current Greater Western franchise requires no central government subsidy, yes there are one or two services that are sponsored locally, such as the additional Paignton shuttles, but a franchise that consisted of just the local stuff would need massive subsidy and cost the taxpayer a lot more, surely a backward step? Also having a large pool of units across the southwest allows for seasonal strengthening by units from Bristol coming down in the summer when the commuter trains are quieter, also using HST'S on summer unit diagrams etc, all flexibility that would be lost.

Fully agree with you on that one. The hard work that First Great Western has put into providing a better service really does show how bad it was previously with Wessex Trains - Service Frequency Increases and Better Timed Connections which now exist with FGW may be lost under another Micro Franchise, and I can't see the same level of summer strengthening happing under a separate franchise. Wessex was ok at the time, but I certainly feel it's better as it is now as part of the Greater Western franchise, accountable and under the control of FGW.

Equally, I know this idea is being mooted by Osbourne & co, but if we see enough micro managing & meddling from the 'We don't Micromanage' DfT, I dread to think how a micro franchise would compare against the clout of FGW or DfT - The South West already lost enough unit's the last time round the DfT intervened with the franchise and tried to Spec the Branches.

After all, if it aint broke, why try to fix it?

 

[Oliver]

I would hazard a guess that any leasing company building (decent) DMUs today would get a full return (and then some) on their investment, the railways/politicians don't really do long term strategy and I reckon a large numbers of DMUs will still be around in 30 years time!

You may well be right, but as you say, that's a guess. On the other hand if you're a train leasing company, would you spend quite a few million pounds building new trains for a TOC with a relatively short franchise and no money to spend, and being dependent on a DfT agreeing to include your trains in a current or future franchise?

 

[pemma]

So what rolling stock would DfT plan for such a franchise - Pacers, converted D78s and 150s to prevent a high subsidy?

 

[irish_rail]

Another downside - loss of crew flexibility. Currently HSS drivers at Penzance , Plymouth and Exeter all sign both HSTs and Sprinters. Separate the two franchises, and that flexibility is gone, meaning additional traincrew will be required, so yet more cost.

All in all, a really poor idea.

 

[3141]

So what rolling stock would DfT plan for such a franchise - Pacers, converted D78s and 150s to prevent a high subsidy?

There are several shorter branch lines on which D78s with a maximum speed of 60 mph would work perfectly well, so it would be a way of increasing the number of diesel units in service.

But it's not necessary to set up a mini-franchise, with all the disadvantages mentioned earlier, to achieve that.

 

[21C101]

Will there not be more DMUs than you can shake a stick at within a few years when the Scottish, Midland, Northwest and Great Western electrification is done?

 

[RPI]

Will there not be more DMUs than you can shake a stick at within a few years when the Scottish, Midland, Northwest and Great Western electrification is done?

There will be more but don't forget that pacers make up a large percentage of them and they have to be gone by 2020 (although there are rumours of life extentions for them which are covered in other threads....... please God let that not happen)