DfT e-mails leaked to Lisa Nandy MP

[Camden]

It's these kind of gnawing logic faults which really do suggest to me that the decision making processes/personalities/safeguards for national infrastructure spend need a hard looking at.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps this is something which should have been considered pre-Ordsall Chord. If it's not important to maintain a direct connection from Southport to Manchester Airport, why has the entire Transpennine network been redesigned around facilitating access to it ?

Well, you already know my view on the Ordsall Chord, and yes, I agree, Manchester Airport is a tail wagging the dog and it needs to stop - why is all the investment being poured into what must be the lowest-loaded part of Northern's network except the rural branches?

 

[B&I]

It is difficult for me to see this other than deliberate wrong doing, in breach of codes of conduct. Possibly even misconduct in public office?

What I find shocking also though is the implication that this has been going on with TfGM in the loop. A supposed "transport for the north" partner who has allegedly been informed by dft that the plan is to screw over a town in the neighbouring city region and lie about it in order to quell dissent. https://mobile.twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1009399979822247936

And to think those in the Liverpool city region who suggest they believe collusion are scoffed at. It also raises serious questions about the similar messages that went out about HS2 a number of years ago. That now merits investigation.

Disgraceful.

TfGM is a joke organisation. They have no understanding of, or interest in, heavy rail. They persist in the delusion that a conurbation of nearly 3 million people can meet all its transport needs with trams. Their behaviour would ne laughable, if it wasn't for the knock-on effects on the rest of the region.

However, if TfGM was being involved in discussions about Southport's rail services, and in particular about some pretty cynical spin in relation to them, and Merseytravel (the body actually responisble for them) was not, this does raise serious questions. The problem is notjust the attitude of DfT, central government and the Tory Party to the north as a whole. The particular problem ia that one city, or city region, seems to enjoy inside access to government which no-one else in the north has

 

[B&I]

It's these kind of gnawing logic faults which really do suggest to me that the decision making processes/personalities/safeguards for national infrastructure spend need a hard looking at.

The older I get, and the more I see of official decision-making in England (not just with these bodies, or with the railways), the more convinced I am that trying to analyse these things through a framework of logic is a huge handicap to grappling with them. Decisions made on the basis of who has the most clout are rarely logical

 

[mpthomson]

Bring back BR in some form or other, maybe not the same as before but state run not for profit

Even a state run commercial enterprise like a railway would be expected to return a significant surplus, otherwise there's less money available for re-investment. Running on a not for profit basis isn't even an options for a nationalised railway as a plan.

 

[B&I]

Even a state run commercial enterprise like a railway would be expected to return a significant surplus, otherwise there's less money available for re-investment. Running on a not for profit basis isn't even an options for a nationalised railway as a plan.

Why must 'not for profit' not mean 'not for profit after reinvestment of operating surplus' ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

My 1959 LMR timetable shows through trains from Southport via Manchester Victoria to Rochdale, Bradford Exchange and Leeds Central.
The Atherton/Calder Valley route was of course the main line of the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway.
Southport-Leeds is a long-standing railway corridor, not a recent DfT invention.
Look at the glorious L&Y tiled map on the wall at Victoria!

 

[bbrez]

Isn't the real issue here the contempt the DfT have for some northern routes and their passengers? Far too many distracted by a change of route on this thread to realise that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My 1959 LMR timetable shows through trains from Southport via Manchester Victoria to Rochdale, Bradford Exchange and Leeds Central.
The Atherton/Calder Valley route was of course the main line of the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway.
Southport-Leeds is a long-standing railway corridor, not a recent DfT invention.
Look at the glorious L&Y tiled map on the wall at Victoria!

Most probably in those days it was a popular means of getting from the mucky city to the seaside!

 

[pemma]

This is being raised by a GM MP who was one of the group of three Southport line MP's that successfully campaigned to maintain a peak service from Southport to the Airport.
As the letters rightly pointing out, diversion of services to Victoria is a result of the specification of electric services and there is much lower demand west of Wigan. And the dft took up the franchise bidder extras option of extending Southport services to Leeds despite there being little commercial value. The sarcastic comment by the Dft official is in response to TfGM challenging them over the poor Southport specification, did you ever see anyone at any time ever suggest that the Southport line would be shuttered? Did you ever see this alleged handling strategy in play? The Kirkby line on the other hand there was serious consideration given to curtailing it going back far longer than the refranchising process (to the HLOS for CP5) and just running it as a shuttle which would allow a higher frequency.

More specifically the MP for Wigan. Has Wigan lost services to Bolton? No. Has Wigan lost services to Manchester Piccadilly? No. Have smaller places in the Wigan borough seen an increase in the number of services they have to Southport? Yes. Has Wigan lost services to Manchester Airport? Technically yes but the service between Wigan and Manchester Airport is better than it was a few years ago. So what exactly has she got to complain about?

 

[daikilo]

She's an MP so doesn't absolutely need to abide by declaring the entire truth, if it doesn't suit her.

 

[WatcherZero]

More specifically the MP for Wigan. Has Wigan lost services to Bolton? No. Has Wigan lost services to Manchester Piccadilly? No. Have smaller places in the Wigan borough seen an increase in the number of services they have to Southport? Yes. Has Wigan lost services to Manchester Airport? Technically yes but the service between Wigan and Manchester Airport is better than it was a few years ago. So what exactly has she got to complain about?

Are losing services to Bolton yes, its having 1tph transferred from Bolton to the Atherton line.

 

[pemma]

Are losing services to Bolton yes, its having 1tph transferred from Bolton to the Atherton line.

There's a replacement service from Wigan North Western to Alderley Edge though. Southport loses a Bolton service, Wigan doesn't.

 

[WatcherZero]

No, its ultimately going from 3 bolton 2 Atherton (3 in peak), 1 chatmoss
to 2 bolton, 4 Atherton, 1 chatmoss.

We are losing 1tph Wigan-Bolton but gaining 2tph to Atherton in offpeak.

 

[theageofthetra]

Wasn't this a perfectly legal FOI request rather than a 'leak' ?

 

[trainophile]

I declare a vested interest, but isn't the loss of Southport to the airport less significant to most people than the cutting out of direct Southport to Piccadilly services (except for a couple a day in the peak hours)? Piccadilly is a major hub for national rail connections, whereas in my admittedly limited knowledge Victoria serves far fewer intercity routes.

 

[driver_m]

More specifically the MP for Wigan. Has Wigan lost services to Bolton? No. Has Wigan lost services to Manchester Piccadilly? No. Have smaller places in the Wigan borough seen an increase in the number of services they have to Southport? Yes. Has Wigan lost services to Manchester Airport? Technically yes but the service between Wigan and Manchester Airport is better than it was a few years ago. So what exactly has she got to complain about?

Going into pedant mode here, what about the stations within the borough that maybe have lost those services? Say Gathurst, Appley Bridge (which is as near as dammit to Wigan), and the loss of same platform changeover from Orrell and Pemburton? She also represents those people. Now I've no idea whether those first two were served by Airport services, but you get my point?

 

[158756]

Going into pedant mode here, what about the stations within the borough that maybe have lost those services? Say Gathurst, Appley Bridge (which is as near as dammit to Wigan), and the loss of same platform changeover from Orrell and Pemburton? She also represents those people. Now I've no idea whether those first two were served by Airport services, but you get my point?

Gathurst and Appley Bridge have lost direct services to Bolton and Piccadilly/Airport. Orrell and Pemberton have the same ability to change at Wigan for Bolton and Salford Crescent for Piccadilly or the Airport. (Though there are fewer trains between Wigan and Bolton - wasn't the path needed to give Blackburn a half hourly service?)

Given electrification isn't likely to happen and the 769s are nowhere to be seen you could extend the Alderley Edge - Wigan to Southport, though it would be unreliable and you'd have to completely rethink the timetables for both routes to Wigan at least.

Capacity through Oxford Road isn't infinite though, however desirable Piccadilly or Manchester Airport are as destinations it isn't possible for everywhere to have a direct service.

 

[Camden]

Isn't the real issue here the contempt the DfT have for some northern routes and their passengers? Far too many distracted by a change of route on this thread to realise that.

Quite!

 

[30907]

My 1959 LMR timetable shows through trains from Southport via Manchester Victoria to Rochdale, Bradford Exchange and Leeds Central.
The Atherton/Calder Valley route was of course the main line of the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway.
Southport-Leeds is a long-standing railway corridor, not a recent DfT invention.
Look at the glorious L&Y tiled map on the wall at Victoria!

My 1938 Bradshaw shows one daily through train (to Harrogate), plus a Saturday extra to Bradford.
The LMR seems to have linked two routes together with dieselisation to make a through service.
But that doesn't make it a "valued connection" in 2018 - one that Southport or Leeds lobbied for in the run up to the new franchise.

 

[snowball]

More specifically the MP for Wigan. Has Wigan lost services to Bolton? No. Has Wigan lost services to Manchester Piccadilly? No.

I don't know much about the service changes but her constiuency includes Gathurst and places whose nearest station is Appley Bridge.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I declare a vested interest, but isn't the loss of Southport to the airport less significant to most people than the cutting out of direct Southport to Piccadilly services (except for a couple a day in the peak hours)? Piccadilly is a major hub for national rail connections, whereas in my admittedly limited knowledge Victoria serves far fewer intercity routes.

There aren't many InterCity routes passengers from Southport would need to travel to Manchester for. They have services to Liverpool and Wigan for InterCity connections and many Lancs residents drive to Preston anyway.

 

[pemma]

No, its ultimately going from 3 bolton 2 Atherton (3 in peak), 1 chatmoss
to 2 bolton, 4 Atherton, 1 chatmoss.

We are losing 1tph Wigan-Bolton but gaining 2tph to Atherton in offpeak.

Just checked and there was a half-hourly Victoria-Bolton-Wigan service which ran non-stop between Bolton and Wigan and the Airport-Southport ran just ahead of one of those services (in both directions) calling at Westhoughton and Hindley. Now it's half-hourly Bolton-Wigan with both services calling at Westhoughton and Hindley. Hardly detrimental for Wigan passengers.

 

[pemma]

There aren't many InterCity routes passengers from Southport would need to travel to Manchester for. They have services to Liverpool and Wigan for InterCity connections and many Lancs residents drive to Preston anyway.

Do Virgin still run an express coach from Southport to Preston which accepts rail tickets?

 

[pemma]

Going into pedant mode here, what about the stations within the borough that maybe have lost those services? Say Gathurst, Appley Bridge (which is as near as dammit to Wigan), and the loss of same platform changeover from Orrell and Pemburton? She also represents those people. Now I've no idea whether those first two were served by Airport services, but you get my point?

All Southport services called at Appley Bridge, only the Victoria to Southport services called at Ince and Gathurst. If you mean Airport to Orrell/Pemberton journeys, in the northbound direction you'd have arrived at Wigan at xx:12 and departed at xx:55, in the southbound direction it was xx:08 arrival and xx:53 departure. You'd have been much better off walking to North Western and picking up the TPE service to the Airport.

Old timetable: https://be803fe5c416e39d38ae-aa2108.../Northern-14-Manchester-to-Southport-1017.pdf

 

[pemma]

Isn't the real issue here the contempt the DfT have for some northern routes and their passengers? Far too many distracted by a change of route on this thread to realise that.

Her first tweet and her question to the PM on the subject related to the government knowing two years ago that the timetable change would create chaos, treating passengers and Northern routes with contempt wasn't the primary issue she put across.

 

[pemma]

I declare a vested interest, but isn't the loss of Southport to the airport less significant to most people than the cutting out of direct Southport to Piccadilly services (except for a couple a day in the peak hours)? Piccadilly is a major hub for national rail connections, whereas in my admittedly limited knowledge Victoria serves far fewer intercity routes.

Care to give some examples of such journeys? Victoria is now the best station to go to for North TPE connections and it already was the best station to go to for connections to Halifax, Bradford, Blackburn etc. Going to the Chester, North Wales, West Midlands, Scotland, or South from Southport doesn't require you to travel via Manchester. That leaves the airport, Sheffield and part of the East Midlands - all places which can be reached with one change at Liverpool South Parkway, even if you still travel via Piccadilly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do Virgin still run an express coach from Southport to Preston which accepts rail tickets?

There's the X2 bus which is a decent enough service so far as "Beeching buses" go. I don't know if you can still through ticket onto it, though. I'd imagine demand for that is low.

 

[pemma]

There's the X2 bus which is a decent enough service so far as "Beeching buses" go. I don't know if you can still through ticket onto it, though. I'd imagine demand for that is low.

It used to show up on NRE as a bus service operated by Virgin Trains but I don't think it still does.

 

[Camden]

Her first tweet and her question to the PM on the subject related to the government knowing two years ago that the timetable change would create chaos, treating passengers and Northern routes with contempt wasn't the primary issue she put across.

What she chose to put across isn't half as shocking as what can be read into/from the material she showed to the public. I don't particularly care about the minutiae of routes, or whether an MP made a charlie of themselves by saying "memory OR RAM" (when memory IS RAM!), etc, etc.

What most people care about and see in this are matters of honesty, to do with being treated correctly in line with how people are supposed to behave, and not being deliberate targets for misinformation from those with hidden agendas.

That any of that seems to be flying over the heads of people, who instead of discussing what this represents are obliviously talking about routes, at if any of that matters at all in substance, is what the other person is I believe expressing understandable surprise at.