Difference between 319/3 and 319/4

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387star

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As far as I know the 319/3 units don't have First Class and have only 3+2 seating whereas the 319/4s have a mix of seating and First Class as well as proper luggage stacks.

Was it lack of room which prevented the stacks being inserted on the 319/3s? I ask this because they are frequently used on the key Brighton-Bedford route and is lack of First Class a problem or is it advertised on timetables?

I'm pretty sure the 319/0s don't have First Class either. However, 319/3s converted fron 319/1s for the Sutton loop did have First Class according to my EMU book so did this service convey First Class in the past?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also why did Thameslink spend money converting 319/1 to standard only units (319/3) whilst spending money converting 319/0s to 319/4s by installing First Class
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Strictly speaking the /3s are only supposed to work the loop and the /4s the Bedford - Brighton, hence those having the stacks.

But as we know, the fleet is run as a single loose fleet and both /3s and /4s can turn up on any diagram.

Yes, the /1s were fitted with 1st class originally but the /0s were not; I think the reason they swapped that round was the relative fleet sizes and the aspiration to dedicate them to each route.
 

Keith Jarrett

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My understanding is that the 319/0 and 319/3 sub classes are worked as one common fleet (I will call them 319/3 in this post); likewise the 319/2 and 319/4 sub-classes (I will call them 319/4) are worked as another common fleet even though the 319/2s have different seating layouts and do not have luggage racks.

The last set of official diagrams that I saw had no 319/3s visiting the Brighton mainline but the Sutton loop would see, during the course of the day, no less than 14 different sets containing first class accommodation. I understand the reason for this being interworking with Brighton servives and/or the need for first class north of Blackfriars. Some of those first class sets on the Sutton loop only make one visit and those visits are heavily weighted towards the morning peak - the 07:40 from Sutton to Luton and the 06:14 Bedford to Sutton are two examples.

The Sevenoaks line seems to be worked by what outwardly appears to be random mix of 319/3 and 319/4 units, the only clue being whether part of the daily diagram needs first class accommodation north of Blackfriars.

But as said above, there is in practice quite a bit of change over between 319/3 and 319/4 diagrams. This month alone, I have had three trips which are booked 319/3 which in reality turned up with at least one 319/4; not forgetting the two trips booked for a pair of 319/4s that have beea mix of a 319/3 and a 319/4.
 

Class377/5

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They are two separate fleets are far as the diagrams go. However some services are diagrammed to do both Loop and Brighton's in a single day so there are some crossover in the diagrams.

In reality it's better to put the 'wrong' type of 319 rather than cancel the train.

Long term this will be stopped as diagrams start to be re-worked from the ground up. This is needed for the introduction of the Desiro Cities.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....I'm pretty sure the 319/0s don't have First Class either. However, 319/3s converted fron 319/1s for the Sutton loop did have First Class according to my EMU book so did this service convey First Class in the past?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also why did Thameslink spend money converting 319/1 to standard only units (319/3) whilst spending money converting 319/0s to 319/4s by installing First Class

Thameslink inherited 40x319/0s and 26x319/1s from BR. They felt they needed more 319/1s for the Brighton-Bedford (& v.v.) service, however,the difference between a 319/0 and a 319/1 was more than just the first class compartment. So rather than create another sub-class (to give them three), they took out the first class on the 319/1s and renumbered them 319/3 and added first class to the 319/0s and renumbered them 319/4, giving them 40 units with first class and 26 without.
 

Failed Unit

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You can tell a former 319/1 because it has a slightly sloped front end the 319/0 is flat. Of course there are other differences, but the slope is the most obvious to us non technical people.
 

hairyhandedfool

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For visual differences, 319/0 and 319/4 have a metal deflector plate under the cab and were built with Stones Faiverley pantographs (some may have been replaced by Brecknell Willis pans). 319/2s also have the metal plate under the cab front, but now have an extra window on the ATS vehicle (where a toilet used to be) and most (if not all) now have Brecknell Willis pantographs. 319/3s (and previously 319/1s) have a carbon fibre valance under the cab and a Brecknell Willis pantograph.
 

westcoaster

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For visual differences, 319/0 and 319/4 have a metal deflector plate under the cab and were built with Stones Faiverley pantographs (some may have been replaced by Brecknell Willis pans). 319/2s also have the metal plate under the cab front, but now have an extra window on the ATS vehicle (where a toilet used to be) and most (if not all) now have Brecknell Willis pantographs. 319/3s (and previously 319/1s) have a carbon fibre valance under the cab and a Brecknell Willis pantograph.

As you said the easiest way to tell is by the valance, the pans there is no pattern to, as they have a mix of both the sf and bw pans.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You can tell a former 319/1 because it has a slightly sloped front end the 319/0 is flat. Of course there are other differences, but the slope is the most obvious to us non technical people.

In all my years of driving them I've never noticed that, I'll have a look next time I'm on one.
 

Failed Unit

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Failed Unit

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Thanks, that was probably it, and the difference to the front you have already described made the slope look more than it really is. Oh well my memory of the 80s isn't as good as I thought.
 

westcoaster

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I am sure it is flatter than a 319/1. But the photo has me doubting myself now we are talking mm but i think i am dreaming now. I will have a closer look. There was something that i used to be able to tell the difference quickly in NSE days on approach to the platform. Maybe I am going mad! (very possible)

I bet it's the cab door, on a /3 it's a flush slideing rectangle plug door, and on a /0+2+4 there is a rubber seal around the door and it's a different shape as can be seen in the picture linked above.
 

Robbies

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What happened to the seven class 319's that Connex converted for the Brighton, East Croydon to Londonn fast service? I believe these are the 319/2's?
 

387star

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Still a bit confused. Why exactly couldn't they have kept the 319/1s with First Class and to boost numbers converted some 319/0s to First Class and reclassify those units as 319/1?
 

hairyhandedfool

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If they just put first class into 14 319/0s they would either have had a small sub-class of 14 319s or a mix of 319/0s with and without first class which might cause a diagramming issue. Much simpler to have 40 319/4s with first class and 26 319/3s without.
 

387star

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Yeah but what if they had changed the 319/0 to have original 319/1 interiors then the 14 would be joined by all the 319/1 and you would still be left with two varients?
 

hairyhandedfool

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The 319/1s are sufficiently different to warrant a sub class, simply changing the interior of the 319/0s won't make them a 319/1.
 

Telcontar

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How many with Stone Faiveley pans are likely to pass St Albans? I saw one a few weeks back and it surprised me – that's the only one I ever recall seeing. The valencing vs deflector plate is pretty much random in terms of what I see; I never liked the deflector – always looked cheap and tinny to me.
 

zn1

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as i recall 319/0 was the first batch 001-60, their main characteristics being the steel valence visible, a flat front end and as mentioned the roof rack, they have g315bz traction motors and a 3hc55b compressor, CET toilets, Very high density seating and No first class, livery was the original NSE,

319/1 161-186 - fitted with different roof rack, 1st class seating, less dense seating loads, the "321" version of NSE and the front end had the fairing, slightly sloped front end.

mechanically they were built the same as the 319/0, with only these slight differences

All maintenance was done at SU due to no heavy maintennace facilities north of the river.

there were then a number of 319/0 allocated to the south central services, and these were due to have due to have their pans removed. this sub fleet would have been classifed 319/2 in the common sense, removal of the pan was done purely for exam purposes as the addition of the pantograph neccsisatted extra work in the cyclic workload.

things of course changed when the privatiasation took full swing and the messing around of the 319's took place, it was hell of alot simpler when it was just 2 sub-classes
 

Electrostar

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Were the 319/1s and 321s the only classes to be painted in the lighter grey NSE livery? I wonder why the 456s built around the same time didn't receive this treatment.
 
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