It wasn’t a blanket assumption at all; I was quoting and responding to a specific question whereby it was asked if there was only one dispatcher present they needed to be adjacent to the cab. The three examples I provided were just to show that this doesn’t always need to be the case, although of course this depends on local instructions as well as the stock.
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They wouldn't need to dispatch from alongside the driving cab;
I’m also unsure what you mean about “GTR is fully DO.” Do you mean DOO?
I've seen that method being used at both locations recently. Although on the GWML a number of platforms have no dispatch equipment or staff and drivers have to stick their head out otherwise won't be able to see anything, so it is the norm there really. This includes the Down Relief at busy stations such as Southall and Hayes & Harlington
I find the term 'platform buddies' to be derogatory and belittling. They're dispatchers, or assistants, or hosts, or any one of a load of different terms, but buddies they aren't.
Is this what used to happen on MK2 intercity services which had no bell buzzer? I.e. guard would show a green indication to the driver who would look out of his/her window for the ready to start?
Dispatchers hold a specific license to dispatch trains, and are distinct from hosts etc. This is an important distinction as unfortunately there have been a few instances of non-dispatch trained staff at DOO locations giving hand signals to drivers, in an effort to be helpful.
This is bad practice as it leads drivers into believing it is safe to depart, based on a signal from someone who isn’t actually competent to make that determination.
At a lot of the busier terminal stations dispatchers operate TRTS (train ready to start) buttons to inform the signalman when to set the route, probably not normally used at Lewes as it’s a through station.Why did they remove platform dispatch from Lewes, but Eastbourne still needs it?
Seems ridiculous that a driver self-dispatching a 12 car on a curved platform is absolutely fine but a 4 car at Eastbourne can't go without it.
Nope. Once RA is given that’s it, and it can’t be revoked.
T.
It may have changed now but I used to see it happen a few times a month at the cross where a WAGN dispatcher would flash the RA after it was given and then start the process again after speaking to the signaller who set the route back to danger
Re Southern the WLL and Coastway are guarded I think.
At a lot of the busier terminal stations dispatchers operate TRTS (train ready to start) buttons to inform the signalman when to set the route, probably not normally used at Lewes as it’s a through station.
I don’t think this is defined. I would say they are to show to the Train Operator that the staff on the platform thinks the train is ready to have the doors closed. They could also show customers on the platform the doors are soon to close as well.
I find the term 'platform buddies' to be derogatory and belittling. They're dispatchers, or assistants, or hosts, or any one of a load of different terms, but buddies they aren't.
So are the London Underground staff with bats part of the dispatch process or just there to assist the driver to observe when to begin the dispatch process?
Does the driver take all responsibility if someone gets trapped in a door when boarding if a staff member has raised the bat to say begin door closure?
There is no “dispatch process,” as trains are not dispatched (in the manner used on the Mainline) in routine circumstances; it is only if the driver cannot see from the cab the full PTI then he would request assisted dispatch. I outlined the situation in post #16 above, which has further information.So are the London Underground staff with bats part of the dispatch process or just there to assist the driver to observe when to begin the dispatch process? Does the driver take all responsibility if someone gets trapped in a door when boarding if a staff member has raised the bat to say begin door closure?
LU doesn’t have dispatch staff, the staff with the bats and remote public address that you see are to assist with dwell time management (and as part of risk mitigation against PTI incidents) and are scheduled to be on certain platforms at certain times of the day as determined by business needs. The Train Operator is responsible for checking the PTI and departing as and when he feels appropriate.
On infrequent occasions staff might be requested to provide assisted dispatch, for example if any part of the train stops within the platform and the Train Operator cannot see the PTI from the cab (perhaps due to equipment fault, station overrun, alarm activation when train leaving and so on), this would be accomplished by the Train Operator and staff member on the platform agreeing which section of the platform to check, and then deciding between themselves how it will be indicated. It is usually easiest for the staff on the platform to dial the train radio on their handheld radio but this is up to the staff to decide.
The bats look similar to those used on the Mainline but with differences. When first introduced they were white on both sides (as opposed to white one side black the other used on Mainline). Now new bats are white but have black shapes on each side, forming a white cross in the middle, I believe this is to aid visibility, however white bats are still used where stations have them.And one so similar to a Network Rail style bat but with a totally different meaning when raised?
The rule book states that staff undertaking platform duties tell customers that the train is ready to depart, to stand clear of the doors and back behind the yellow line and then indicate that this has been done by the use of a baton (or raised hand).Surely the raising of the bat on the Underground must be to indicate something to the train operator, otherwise it would not be needed?
There is no need to take any notice of the platform staff undertaking this activity, although they are there to help! Whilst the term "despatch" [sic] is used to determine the departing of a train it is not to be confused with the use of the word dispatch/despatch of a train in the Mainline context.And yet they are not part of the dispatch process and train operators should supposedly carry out the full dispatch themselves, so surely there is no need to take any notice of the platform bat?
Not quite. Platform staff are scheduled to be on certain platforms at certain times of the day to undertake platform duties (known as "Sats") to minimise dwell times, improve the flow of people through the station and reduce the risks involved in overcrowding. It is only in exceptional circumstances where a member of staff would be required to provide assisted dispatch, such as defective monitors, stopping past the monitors, etc, and the rule book requires the staff on the platform to agree with the Train Operator how they will confirm this; this /could/ be a raised baton if they decide upon this, but does not have to be.[1]Also, it was mentioned that the underground has staff with bats at some locations for business needs or where the train operator cannot see the full PTI from the cab. But surely, if they cannot see the full PTI from the cab, and need an assistant, then the bat IS a part of the dispatch and the platform person must take responsibility for that part of the PTI?
I had seen the formula somewhere, but it's decided when and where to have Sats staff based upon a formula to do with timetabled dwell times, number of customers, frequency of service, and so on. Some locations (for instance Bank Central line and Embankment Northbound Northern line) will also have staff not carrying out Sats duties but permanently on the platform whilst trains are running (even at say 2.30am on Saturday night!) as part of risk mitigation against PTI accidents.Also, what does it mean by business need? As in a person needs to be present for customer service? Surely it should be safety need?
The rule book states that staff undertaking platform duties tell customers that the train is ready to depart, to stand clear of the doors and back behind the yellow line and then indicate that this has been done by the use of a baton (or raised hand).
They wouldn't need to dispatch from alongside the driving cab; I have seen drivers look back out of the cab window to platform staff dispatching from positions away from the cab at Slough (not sure if staff still use this method here it was 5+ years ago) and also on the Down Main at Stratford.
Is this what used to happen on MK2 intercity services which had no bell buzzer? I.e. guard would show a green indication to the driver who would look out of his/her window for the ready to start?
*”bat and flag” is now permissible using a bat that incorporates both white and green lights.
Trains with in build CCtV the cameras stay on
Norwood junction has dispatch duties - especially on LO from there too
'Second dispatch' is the correct term for the 'assistants', and in reality they're fully trained and can take turns to being the person in charge.
Not necessarily. All GN dispatchers are Station Assistants. They're all trained dispatchers. There's no distinction between 'first or second' dispatch - it doesn't exist on GN.
Yup,seen this @ hitchin,same for arlesey 2.Hitchin used to dispatch 12-cars from the middle of the platform, because they only had one dispatcher and that was agreed to be safe. There is a line on the platform to indicate where the dispatcher should stand. The driver could either look out or use his DOO mirror to see the dispatcher.
That changed a couple of years ago (when GN hired the 321s). Hitchin's roster changed and they were given more staff. Now they dispatch one in the middle and one at the front.
All the Up Relief platforms have cameras + monitors due to curvature, and looking at old photos they do appear to have replaced both at pretty much all the stations a few years ago. Only a few more weeks now until pretty much all the stopping services to/from London start using 387s and therefore have cameras at all platforms.Yeah, the Thames Valley DOO is really very basic. Not really unsafe per-se (the driver just does near enough what a guard could do) but a lot more effort than regular DOO. Does surprise me it hasn't been improved with monitors etc over the years.
Re Southern the WLL and Coastway are guarded I think.
Yup,seen this @ hitchin,same for arlesey 2.
So if more services go DOO/DCO in the future, what is most likely to happen at stations which currently have dispatchers who currently dispatch with the guard?
Will it be a case of all those stations which currently have dispatch staff retain them but will give their dispatch indications to the driver rather than the guard?
Or will it be the case that all will be reviewed and some stations may lose dispatchers if DOO came in?
Could it be used as a cost cutting exercise to reduce the number of staff at stations?
Or would TOCs prefer to keep staff on the platforms dispatching for customer service reasons?
Do Network Rail stipulate that dispatchers MUST be retained at some locations? Such as Birmingham New Street where everything must receive the RA.?
What has been the case previously where DOO has been introduced?
Also, if dispatchers were to be retained, would CD/RA equipment be fitted at stations if they didn't currently have it, or would the dispatcher simply dispatch with bats and flags to the driver as installing CD/RA would be deemed unnecessary or expensive?
And finally, if it were deemed that a train that previously required one dispatcher (for guard dispatch), actually now required two dispatchers for platform DOO dispatch (so one dispatcher was adjacent to driving cab), then would this likely lead to the TOC simply removing the dispatch duties at that station from the platform staff for reasons of cost? (Thus just giving the driver the full dispatch duties)?
Thanks.
Norwood junction has dispatch duties - especially on LO from there too
It seems some ARL LO services dispatch themselves from Platform 5 now. Not sure if these occasions were anomalies or everyday occurrences.
Southern DOO and guard operated services must be dispatched by platform staff from Platforms 1 / 4 / 5 at Norwood Junction. 3 and 6 do not need platform staff assistance. 2 and 7 are of course not used by passenger services.