Displaced 185s..

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Flywaver, 18 Nov 2011.

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  1. Flywaver

    Flywaver Member

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    Purely gossip. There is some sort of talk of 185s replacing 170s on XC...
    How would this happen? Ordered 350s and a cascade or lighter 170s?
    I know the 185s are heavy but much of XCs 170 routes are being upgraded for heavy freight so i can see it would work. Plus XC has 29 170s so not all 185s would be needed... Just wondered if anyone knows anymore?
    Cant say i believe it. XC arent in any hurry pushiong Voayagers to Stansted...:roll:
     
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  3. gordonthemoron

    gordonthemoron Established Member

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    the times I've used XC from Stansted to Peterborough, the train has been fairly lightly loaded, esp. south of Cambridge
     
  4. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Cant see TPE wanting to give them up any time soon!
     
  5. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Surely before any 185s go walkies from TPE they'll get rid of their small fleet of 170s?
     
  6. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    If North TPE is electrified then maybe in 8 years time they'll be the possibly of a 170 and 185 swap. However, 185s will be more suited to Manchester Airport to Cleethorphes and Blackpool to Scarborough than 170s.
     
  7. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    Why not transfer them within forstGroup to Portsmouth_Cardiff, thus allowing the 158s to revert to 2-car and be used to augment other services?
     
  8. Royston Vasey

    Royston Vasey Established Member

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    Always full to rammed west of Peterborough though. Through the Midlands I've never seen it lightly loaded
     
  9. ChrisCooper

    ChrisCooper Established Member

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    Can't see what the point would be anyway. A 3 car 185 isn't going to give a capacity boost compared to a 3 car 170. Performace would be better, but the 185s are designed to run over the Pennines where there are steep gradients, wheras the Cross Country 185 routes are fairly level, other than the Lickey Incline, so 185s wouldn't really have a great advantage. Stopping patterns are such that I doubt the acceleration would give a real advantage either. On the other hand there would be higher fuel costs, higher access charges, and there are a lot of SP90 speed limits where the 185s would be restricted to 75mph unless there were upgrades to allow them to also do 90 or 100.
     
  10. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    There is only going to be around ten 185s freed up in the next few years anyway (going on the size of the 350 order) that's such a small fleet it seems like it would be virtually impossible to send anywhere else. Far better to use it to double up existing TPE services than move them anywhere else in the country. If the 185s are to be moved then lets move them as one large class of 51 units not split them up into small groups.
     
  11. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    as you say - much better just to whack them onto the exisiting services
     
  12. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    First Group may not be running either franchise in 2019, which is the earliest any 185s will be available. The ones released off Manchester Airport to Scotland and Blackpool are going on to other TPE services for strengthening.
     
  13. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Using them within TPE is surely DfT's published policy?

    In their paper from Jul 2009, Britain’s Transport Infrastructure - Rail Electrification:

    "Electrification will enable diesel trains to be transferred onto other
    TransPennine Express routes, delivering much-needed additional capacity
    with many trains able to operate as six-carriage trains instead of threecarriage trains today."

    http://webarchive.nationalarchives....t.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/rail-electrification.pdf
     
  14. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    Oh yes, that's all depending, of course.
     
  15. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    After doing some fishing it sounds like you got half the rumour story.

    The full rumour seems assume the North TPE routes will go to XC (which is one proposal in to the review in rail franchising) then the 185 fleet will go to XC leaving 170s for the remaining TPE routes. This will mean some of the current 170 XC services will see 185s.
     
  16. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    I'd go for either Stansted Airport-Birmingham New St or Portsmouth Harbour-Cardiff Central personally.
     
  17. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    I don't get why people keep saying 185s should run that route. The 185s have less capacity than 3 car 158s and other people are saying they need 4 car units on that service.
     
  18. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    No reason they couldn't be doubled up though.
     
  19. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    If the capacity given by 6 cars isn't utilised effectively, they will be extremly expensive to run doubled up.

    Also when I said capacity previously I just meant seating capacity. A 3 car 185 fits over 300 passengers on TPE - 180 seated and 150 standing.
     
  20. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    Fair enough. What about SSD-BHM or Inverness / Aberdeen-Glasgow / Edinburgh then?
     
    Last edited: 18 Nov 2011
  21. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    What I don't get is why people are saying 4 car units are needed for a route and then other people are recommending 185s for the same route. That would be like saying 5 car DEMUs should replace FGW HSTs.

    At present any plans for 185s to go to another part of the country needs to be done in conjunction with other units going in the opposite direction or an order of new trains.

    I prefer 170s to 185s as they provide a more comfortable environment to travel in for longer distances. So if Scotrail want to swap their 3 car 170s for 3 car 185s I'd be more than happy to see 3 car 170s on TPE.
     
  22. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    You are of course correct. It seems that somewhere between my brain thinking up the post and my fingers typing it out the part that said "as far as I'm aware the DfT are planning to use them to double up existing services anyway" got lost :oops:

    In my defence I was rushing as I had to be in Uni for a seminar...
     
  23. 350401

    350401 Member

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    If that is true, I'd assume that TPE are getting more 170s and/or 350s? Running the entire South TPE and NW TPE with 8 2car 170's and 10 4car 350's doesn't exactly seem feasible - more like a recipe for overcrowding!?
     
  24. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    The assumption is that Manchester Airport to Blackpool will get 319s.

    I guess 185s on XC 170 routes means XC 170s on current TPE routes. Although, if TPE gets split between different franchises I can see a much more complex cascade. If Manchester Airport-Cleethorphes goes to EMT I can't see them having a small 170 fleet and the future Northern franchise getting a small 170 fleet for the North West - more likely that Liverpool-Norwich will go over to 170s and 158s will be used on North West routes.
     
  25. Flywaver

    Flywaver Member

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    Well it's not bad if i got half the gossip right. The Stansted route has its climbs where the power could reduce times. Namely Arley. 170s struggle to get to 70mph and there's talk of line speed change which wouldn't be achievable. I've just worked a packed 1500 off Cambridge to Brum.. I had a 3 car..
    South of Peterborough it's only lighter loads off peak but it varies..
     
  26. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    The Lancashire electrification will free up about fifteen DMUs (assuming nobody bothers reintroducing a Windermere - Manchester service 95% under the wires of course....).

    I expect that this will see the nine 170s heading off elsewhere and some of the busy services through Leeds getting six coaches for part of the journey (whilst Manchester gets doubled up 185s on most peak services from Preston, the significant flows from Huddersfield/York into Leeds don't get this luxury on anything like as many services).

    I don't see any leaving TPE any time soon (as I think that TPE North electrification is unlikely in the next decade, especially as its an inefficient way of getting rid of Pacers)
     
  27. sonic2009

    sonic2009 Established Member

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    If the 185s do move to Portsmouth - Cardiff or Scotrail. Your going to have to build or.enhance depots because Adwick and York were built for the 185s by Siemens, a bit like at Northampton with the 350s and Northam for 444/450, there's nothing like that in the South West. Although dont Siemens have a depot at Polmadie for 380s?

    Personally i reckon 185s should stick with TPE.
     
  28. DanTrainMan185

    DanTrainMan185 Established Member

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    The 319's that are planning on moving up north are going to be used on Manchester Picc/Victoria - Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows, not on Blackpool services, according to Wikipedia anyway.

    Personally that seems like a bad idea, because although the 185's are crammed they're actually very stylish, the 319's are older stock, so Blackpool services would have the standard of train decreased. Liverpool services are currently Sprinter operation, so a 319 would be quite a nice 'electric' stylish unit.

    I hope to dear god that 319's do not go on Blackpool services. In fact, I don't know why they're on Thameslink services, one of they key services hitting central London, I personally think they should work services that are no longer than an hour.
     
  29. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Ignoring the Blackpool and Scotland services there's 35 diagrams for the current TPE timetable:

    South TPE: 7
    Middlesbrough: 6
    Hull: 4
    Newcastle: 6
    Scarborough: 6
    Barrow: 5
    Windermere: 3

    If the Manchester-Leeds semi-fasts get added in then we've got another 5 diagrams.

    So that'll be 40 diagrams with no strengthened services and no other service enhancements. I think 60 units could easily be utilised effectively given Liverpool-Scarborough will ideally be 4/6 car operation as well as some of the South TPE, Newcastle and Barrow services.
     
  30. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Thats because wikipedia is woefully out of date, and was posted before the entire Lancs triangle was approved.

    And at the moment, no-one knows what will get used on any of the services, the 319s aren't appropriate for Manc - Preston - Blackpool via Bolton as the're just not long enough, or too long to be doubled up, it needs 3x23m long units (323s or 380s), or major platform alterations.

    And if you care more about style than function, I'd be glad you're not in charge of rolling stock allocations...
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    And yes, to agree with jcollins, the 185s are going nowhere fast, even if TPE N gets electrified, theres plenty of routes the 185s are suited for around the North...

    If they were to be moved, it would be an end of all TPE Diesel stock IMO, and should go somwhere like SWT or Scotrail, in exchange for one of their diesel fleets.
     
  31. Flywaver

    Flywaver Member

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    Wishful thinking from many. There are always ideal routes. Personally if XC have made a deal then live with it... Must admit though having a small fleet will be a maintenance nightmare.. Can they be coupled to 170s in emergency?
     
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