Disruption to services - Storm Dudley & Storm Eunice

[johntea]

Just looked out of my window here in West Yorkshire and now it has decided to start snowing!

 

[30907]

Yellow warning for snow now in parts of E Lancs and W Yorks. Very large flakes at first, now lying but not much wind.

Random issue: NRE report that the down platform at Ockley is closed

 

[43066]

From what I experienced yesterday GA is very much in the hands of Network Rail regarding repairs & routes re-opening, if the information is slow to come from work sites not much info. can be passed on.

There’s a 50mph BSR over the Anglia region today, which won’t help matters.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Currently on 2G55 (1158 Gloucester to Cardiff) which is a single 150 (150250). Full and standing leaving Lydney. First service into Wales.

 

[Taunton]

There is a big difference between a private citizen choosing to drive a car depite knowing the dangerous conditions outside and expecting other to do that for you.

And everyone else. Our Ocado grocery delivery came in right on time yesterday evening. The driver said they were all out on the road, he had been out since lunchtime. Gave him a tip. I didn't "expect" it, but it was good to see their approach and attitude.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

That's a bit of a ridiculous post. I've lived in both the North and South of the country, and the winds here in S London are far in excess of anything I have personally experienced anywhere. You could put your big coat on and head out if you wanted but you'd still be likely to be hit by flying debris, falling masonry, etc.

Yes, I did head out yesterday in my big coat and amazingly managed to enjoy my completely inessential trip to Sheffield for a walk and tour of its real ale pubs. It was a bit blustery but nowhere near as bad as what the weather forecasters were predicting.

It's very interesting to see the different reactions of different operators, with some throwing in the towel early on or even yesterday, and others running the best service they could throughout.

Unfortunately, regardless of blame, the rail industry really doesn't come out of this looking good. Broadly speaking the roads have remained open throughout, and the industry messaging has just been "travel this weekend instead" - which is no help at all to those who have been stranded.

Time and again, the industry demonstrates that the train can't be relied upon to get you to your destination.

I agree. I've been a big critic of Northern in the past but fair play to them, they did their best to put on a reliable service yesterday in my part of South Yorkshire.

Most other TOCs have been an absolute disgrace, in particular those like TfW who decided in advance they couldn't be bothered to provide a service even before anyone knew how severe the weather would be. I accept that you have to suspend services if a tree falls on the line but you don't cancel all services just in case a tree falls on the line. Most of our rail network is tree lined, if you cancelled trains every time there was a risk of trees falling you'd never run trains at all!

I would hope that the ORR is looking very closely at those TOCs who overreacted with a view to imposing fines to remind them of their responsibilities to their customers.

 

[6Gman]

No but the probability of line blockages could be reduced if the tress weren't there in the first place. Scanning the NR twitter feeds its obvious many of the trees are within the railway boundary. And when they are in close proximity to OLE its just madness as you get double trouble with not only a line blockage but damaged OLE to repair as well. Wouldn't stop the need to suspend services with an extreme event like this but the period could be limited to the high winds and then services could be quickly restored as damage should be limited.

What is needed is for Shapps to ask searching questions why so many trees are left so close to infrastructure and then for the industry to get the support it needs to clear them. HS1 has minimal tall foliage inside the boundary fence as did our railways pre 1970's.

Didn't one of Shapps' colleagues suspend tree clearing at one point?

And the Government would much rather pay £30M for a shiny new station (photo opportunity) than a tree removal programme.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Seems to be some pretty large delays between Bristol and Taunton at the moment. Fair play to GWR for putting up an extra service to Cardiff (they've cancelled the Portsmouth trains so anyone heading to Cardiff has to rely on the Taunton services).

 

[High Dyke]

Some MOMs are chainsaw competent but the problem is you need a second person with them who is emergency first aid trained and you’re not supposed to use chainsaws in the dark without proper site lighting being set up. MOMs are generally single crewed (except on LNE East Coast Route where I’ve heard they’re double crewed all the time) so you need to either get someone from another area in or get someone in on their rest day to work overtime. Not impossible but can be tricky when there’s lots going on in a storm. I’m a MOM myself (not chainsaw competent) and I was asked to work my rest days for Eunice but I declined because I knew it would be chaos.

There are different levels of chainsaw competence to allow you to fell progressively larger and more difficult trees, and wind-blown trees are a seperate competence in their own right. You need to cut so many trees of each type per year to keep the competence up and you need all the special PPE to wear to keep you safe. It’s all very complicated and so NR has started removing chainsaw competence from MOMs as it’s difficult to comply with all the requirements and hard to justify the expense, it is better to use the dedicated Off Track and P-Way teams who are better resourced in terms of both manpower and equipment for this activity.

I should also have added it‘s really easy to seriously injure or kill yourself with a chainsaw, or drop a tree in the wrong place on top of something or someone, so it’s a very high risk activity. I think the company is right to remove MOMs chainsaw competence because it is not the sort of thing you want to be having a go at once in a blue moon. You need to be doing it on a regular basis, the Off Track dept are cutting trees every single day so they are really experienced professionals on the railway. It makes sense to me to use Off Track and P-Way for tree clearance and supplement them with the various specialist railway vegetation contractors as needed during big storms. That way the MOMs can focus on operational recovery such as evacuating trapped trains, removing obstructions from the OLE etc..

I used to hold PTS (personal Track safety) and IWA (Individual Working Alone) competencies, as part of my duties. However, in an effort to save money it was decided those competencies wouldn't be renewed. Yet, it was a management idea to train relief signallers up like that to save money in the first place. Part of the problem was due to the lack of keeping up with the assessments. Like you mention though, it's easier to let Off-track teams deal with the issues. I'm not certain about other parts of the East Coast Route, but certainly around the South area most are still single crewed, but with the odd additional MOM on duty. East Midlands are similar (unless it's in the London area).

Looking at it, today is a better day performance wise. Only the odd cancellation on EMR routes in my area. Not so many reports of incidents either.

 

[Ex-controller]

Yes, I did head out yesterday in my big coat and amazingly managed to enjoy my completely inessential trip to Sheffield for a walk and tour of its real ale pubs. It was a bit blustery but nowhere near as bad as what the weather forecasters were predicting.

Just as many people have lost their faith in scientific "experts" due to their wildly exaggerated predictions over the course of the pandemic, there's a real chance that people will also lose faith in weather forecasters if they continue to exaggerate their weather warnings.


I agree. I've been a big critic of Northern in the past but fair play to them, they did their best to put on a reliable service yesterday in my part of South Yorkshire.

Most other TOCs have been an absolute disgrace, in particular those like TfW who decided in advance they couldn't be bothered to provide a service even before anyone knew how severe the weather would be. I accept that you have to suspend services if a tree falls on the line but you don't cancel all services just in case a tree falls on the line. Most of our rail network is tree lined, if you cancelled trains every time there was a risk of trees falling you'd never run trains at all!

I would hope that the ORR is looking very closely at those TOCs who overreacted with a view to imposing fines to remind them of their responsibilities to their customers.

I doubt the ORR will be investigating those TOCs which suspended their services in advance, but if they were, I’m sure the TOCs in question would prefer that to an RAIB investigation into a driver or passengers being seriously injured or killed by a train striking debris, a tree, or other obstruction.

 

[yorksrob]

Yellow warning for snow now in parts of E Lancs and W Yorks. Very large flakes at first, now lying but not much wind.

Random issue: NRE report that the down platform at Ockley is closed

There were some big flakes of snow in Lancaster a couple of hours ago, but this has now turned into rain.

People have not lost faith in the science of epidemics because within the margin for error it wasn't wrong, in the same way that they haven't lost faith in science of meteorology because again because within the margin it wasn't wrong.

Instead, what you mean here is that you personally enjoy having a go at both camps because it fits your narrative, which you believe not because of the evidence but because it makes you feel better about the world and your place in it. I quite understand that this is a deeply rooted logical fallacy that you cling onto during times of distress, but I can assure you that you're quite wrong. Sorry.

I think the issue was that Sheffield was under a yellow weather warning, yet the messaging from the national news outlets and NR was more appropriate to the red/amber warning in other parts of the country.

 

[387star]

Chichester Station remains closed after storm damage

 

[mmh]

While the law won't allow them to withdraw the basic Road Traffic Act cover, it actually surprises me that car insurance contracts don't withdraw the fully comprehensive part of the cover if driving in an area where a red weather warning has been declared, as the chance of damage requiring such a claim (e.g. from a tree) is high.

The chance isn't high, it's increased. Probably by an insignificant amount in the scheme of things.

Insurance companies are adept enough at rejecting claims, let's not make it easier for them!

 

[jon0844]

Yes, I did head out yesterday in my big coat and amazingly managed to enjoy my completely inessential trip to Sheffield for a walk and tour of its real ale pubs. It was a bit blustery but nowhere near as bad as what the weather forecasters were predicting.



I agree. I've been a big critic of Northern in the past but fair play to them, they did their best to put on a reliable service yesterday in my part of South Yorkshire.

Most other TOCs have been an absolute disgrace, in particular those like TfW who decided in advance they couldn't be bothered to provide a service even before anyone knew how severe the weather would be. I accept that you have to suspend services if a tree falls on the line but you don't cancel all services just in case a tree falls on the line. Most of our rail network is tree lined, if you cancelled trains every time there was a risk of trees falling you'd never run trains at all!

I would hope that the ORR is looking very closely at those TOCs who overreacted with a view to imposing fines to remind them of their responsibilities to their customers.

I think if a red warning is issued, you down tools. Pretty much to save lives. To not do so would leave you vulnerable to possible legal action.

Why the South East and London didn't get the red warning until early morning I do not know, unless the Met Office was pressured to not overreact - because I'm sure if it had been declared a day before then London and surrounds may have stopped everything too.

As it ended up, services ran okay in the morning and people travelled against advice. Then the storm hit between 10 and 11am and hardly any trains could run the rest if the day, leaving people moaning they couldn't get home.

It's great you got to have some beer though.

 

[bramling]

More wind is forecast for Sunday going into Monday, including the likelihood of some quite vicious localised gusts at times. Seems like some element of further disruption is likely.

 

[Starmill]

While the law won't allow them to withdraw the basic Road Traffic Act cover, it actually surprises me that car insurance contracts don't withdraw the fully comprehensive part of the cover if driving in an area where a red weather warning has been declared, as the chance of damage requiring such a claim (e.g. from a tree) is high.

The "luxury" (not the right term but you know what I mean) elements of car insurance are sold on a purely commercial basis anyway, and I think a large part of the marketing appeal for them is that people have an attachment to their vehicle and they want to ensure it is properly protected. That's why people go for comprehensive cover in the first place. People will probably do what they can to stay safe in a red warning, and for most that extends to their car. Anyone who doesn't is probably driving with the cheapest possible insurance anyway - or illegally, with no insurance.

 

[infobleep]

Put simply, there are only so many resources to go round. The storm affected different areas to different degrees, and the characteristics of each line affected recovery.

The decision was made to prioritise the Brighton and Horsham routes over the East Coast way and North Downs Line. This provided the greatest capacity to clear congestion elsewhere on the network by permitting the highest number of 12-Car to trains to get out and running. Reigate and Redhill would not have provided the same capacity. People who's stations couldn't be reached had to organise taxis or use local buses, but that was happening on the BML itself as well as on branch lines.

Interesting.

This is Guildford station roof today. It has some tiles missing. Waiting for engineers to come and fix. Will need scaffolding. No idea how long this will take. Images show the station roof and general station area.

The back of Guildford station was packed. I assume people prefer to wait in the shelter there than around the front in the rain.

They will be waiting a while and South Western Railway is advising people not to travel, which is stronger advice than yesterday's advice for today.



No services running from Guildford as a result. Not even any services running through without stopping.

Even the rail replacement buses to Petersfield have been completely cancelled. Not even terminated short at Godalming or diverted to London Road (Guildfordl). Just cancelled. They were running earlier.

Great Western Railway didn't manage to run at all today. That might be due to trees down though.

 

[bramling]

I think if a red warning is issued, you down tools. Pretty much to save lives. To not do so would leave you vulnerable to possible legal action.

Why the South East and London didn't get the red warning until early morning I do not know, unless the Met Office was pressured to not overreact - because I'm sure if it had been declared a day before then London and surrounds may have stopped everything too.

As it ended up, services ran okay in the morning and people travelled against advice. Then the storm hit between 10 and 11am and hardly any trains could run the rest if the day, leaving people moaning they couldn't get home.

It's great you got to have some beer though.

Yes I don’t think it’s unreasonable for red warnings to result in a significant response, especially given how rare red warnings are.

The only thing I can think regarding the lateness of the red warning was they were waiting to see *exactly* which area(s) merited it, which to be fair I’d say they got fairly accurate with. I’m still surprised they didn’t issue it earlier though, especially given that a sting jet formation was believed to be possible. From what I understand we didn’t get one yesterday, which probably gave us the difference between yesterday’s vicious storm, and 87’s devastating one.

 

[Dunnideer]

I'm not certain about other parts of the East Coast Route, but certainly around the South area most are still single crewed, but with the odd additional MOM on duty. East Midlands are similar (unless it's in the London area).

Ah understood, one of my mates had told me that a load of extra jobs were recruited in 2019 to allow the East Coast main line MOMs to be doubled up. I’m not on LNE route so I’ll bow to your knowledge!

It’s a bit off topic but it would make things so much better if every MOM van was double crewed a bit like the National Highways Traffic Officers. Especially for stuff like fatalities where you really need to be at the impact site and also at the train, which can sometimes be quite a big distance apart. It can make things tricky to manage and having someone else available is really beneficial. Of course the company has no money for that and it doesn’t look likely there ever will be, as it is we’re already struggling to get a 60 hours compliant roster in because we’re not allowed any extra posts.

 

[Failed Unit]

Are there any options for someone to get from Cambridge to London today? (asking for another forum member)

My train from York to London is very busy but on time and no sign of any disruption at the moment.

Kings Cross route re-opened. Hopefully the information isn’t too late.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks; they are on a train now as I type this.

My train was on time. I got a bargain paying just £30 for nearly 3 hours in 1st class on what I understand was a very full train.

 

[infobleep]

Does anyone know what the issues are affecting the South Western Railway routes? Is it still trees on lines that need clearing or something else?

A friend remarked that they were surprised that even rail replacement buses were being cancelled. These were planned RRBs and not ones runnimg due to the storm.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just going around Herts today, many trees down on roads with the council busy chopping them up. The big difference is that many of these were dragged slightly off the road for motor vehicles to pass on the verge a luxury that rail doesn’t had.

I must admit rail are damned If they don’t.

on Wednesday I was travelling from Scotland- England. We knew about the storm. LNER wouldn’t remove ticket acceptance so I stayed with my booked train and got 100% delay replay which could have being avoided had they let me take an earlier train. I asked the staff at Waverley as I was on the platform in time for 1500 but told to wait until booked 1530.

Other incidents that hindsight is great. Last night the 1930 London- Newcastle was held outside WGC because of a fallen tree. If they had kept it on the platform at WGC they could have opened the doors. Yes I know they don’t know how long the train was going to be there. But everyday is a learning day.

 

[Bessie]

It's 2.40pm on Saturday and looks like no trains running in/out of Waterloo. Appreciate there was a lot of clear up work to do but surely by now one line would be open.

 

[Horizon22]

Interesting.

This is Guildford station roof today. It has some tiles missing. Waiting for engineers to come and fix. Will need scaffolding. No idea how long this will take. Images show the station roof and general station area.

The back of Guildford station was packed. I assume people prefer to wait in the shelter there than around the front in the rain.

They will be waiting a while and South Western Railway is advising people not to travel, which is stronger advice than yesterday's advice for today.

View attachment 110456View attachment 110457View attachment 110458View attachment 110459

No services running from Guildford as a result. Not even any services running through without stopping.

Even the rail replacement buses to Petersfield have been completely cancelled. Not even terminated short at Godalming or diverted to London Road (Guildfordl). Just cancelled. They were running earlier.

Great Western Railway didn't manage to run at all today. That might be due to trees down though.

Yes the North Downs still has a number of trees to be cleared, but should be open later.

 

[800001]

Just going around Herts today, many trees down on roads with the council busy chopping them up. The big difference is that many of these were dragged slightly off the road for motor vehicles to pass on the verge a luxury that rail doesn’t had.

I must admit rail are damned If they don’t.

on Wednesday I was travelling from Scotland- England. We knew about the storm. LNER wouldn’t remove ticket acceptance so I stayed with my booked train and got 100% delay replay which could have being avoided had they let me take an earlier train. I asked the staff at Waverley as I was on the platform in time for 1500 but told to wait until booked 1530.

Other incidents that hindsight is great. Last night the 1930 London- Newcastle was held outside WGC because of a fallen tree. If they had kept it on the platform at WGC they could have opened the doors. Yes I know they don’t know how long the train was going to be there. But everyday is a learning day.

Prior to it been held north of Welwyn, all customers were advised there was going to be a serious delay, it called at Welwyn Garden City and all customers were given the option to leave the train there. Anyone still on the train after that was fully aware of the extent of the delay they were going to incur and they were told the eta of the line blockage being cleared.

 

[Helenamuti]

Does anyone know whether the Stansted Express has any chance of running around 6pm? Have an elderly relative arriving at the airport around that time and need to understand whether we need alternative arrangements for her.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think if a red warning is issued, you down tools. Pretty much to save lives. To not do so would leave you vulnerable to possible legal action.

Why the South East and London didn't get the red warning until early morning I do not know, unless the Met Office was pressured to not overreact - because I'm sure if it had been declared a day before then London and surrounds may have stopped everything too.

As it ended up, services ran okay in the morning and people travelled against advice. Then the storm hit between 10 and 11am and hardly any trains could run the rest if the day, leaving people moaning they couldn't get home.

It's great you got to have some beer though.

I think an individual going out on foot* or any operating public transport is fine, they are only a risk to themselves, as long as they accept they may have to make their own way home on foot or pay for a hotel themselves subject to one being available, and that abusing staff if that does become the situation is unacceptable because the situation is their fault and nobody else's.

With cars there is a responsibility to other road users, for example. And managers have responsibility to their staff they may be insisting come into work in non essential settings.

* Other than hillwalking, where they might put volunteer mountain rescue at considerable unnecessary risk, or pleasure boating/open water swimming because of the same for the lifeboat crew.

 

[181]

It's 2.40pm on Saturday and looks like no trains running in/out of Waterloo. Appreciate there was a lot of clear up work to do but surely by now one line would be open.

If I'm interpreting Realtime Trains correctly, it looks as if there have been 6 departures (and 9 arrivals) since 14.00: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2022-02-19/1340?stp=WVS&show=all&order=actual -- much less than normal, but not nothing.

There are quite a few others that should have left a long time ago but aren't shown as having either departed or been cancelled; I see that the one that left for Chessington a few minutes ago is still shown as having been the 13.47 rather than redesignated as the 14.47.

 

[Failed Unit]

Prior to it been held north of Welwyn, all customers were advised there was going to be a serious delay, it called at Welwyn Garden City and all customers were given the option to leave the train there. Anyone still on the train after that was fully aware of the extent of the delay they were going to incur and they were told the eta of the line blockage being cleared.

Fair enough. They were warm and safe on the train.

O

Does anyone know whether the Stansted Express has any chance of running around 6pm? Have an elderly relative arriving at the airport around that time and need to understand whether we need alternative arrangements for her.

A long way around but looks like they may be able to travel via Cambridge by then.