Do you support the junior doctors' strike?

[DarloRich]

Hence people would undergo a medical. Long term, poor lifestyle choices are easily detected in that way. Emergency situations requiring ambulances, A&E departments and immediate treatment would continue to be provided by the state. There is little practical or fair way of charging for such incidents.

but poor lifestyle choice is a difficult one. Who has made a poor lifestyle choice: the ptsd suffering soldier or the homeless person who has turned to substances after a long and unpleasant life?


I am against any form of insurance based health cover as I feel the only winners are the insurance companies and the richest in society. I feel that we as a country can (and should) afford the costs of the national health service. We ALL have to pay our rightful share of taxes though...........

PS I know my awful left wing tenancies are coming out with this thread but I do value the concept and service offered by the NHS immeasurably and feel it is something we should be praising and protecting rather than allowing constant attacks, chipping away and run downs as part of what seems like an inexorable slide to privitastion that wont benefit us real people one iota. Those who do benefit will be the the fund managers, tax avoiders and bankers who fund the Tory party. As Private Eye would say: trebles all round!

 

[BestWestern]

I don't disagree! Not at all.

It does seem that the system is heading only one way though at present. Charges for various things have crept in and risen, and the service as a whole is very obviously overloaded. The only way we could retain the true values is if one of the parties found a huge chest of gold and pledged to spend it - I see no other way; it is cash that is the missing vital component. Government after government fiddles, fettles, flirts with the private sector and tries just about anything else short of scrapping the whole thing or finding a few billion to throw at it. And yet they are, surely, the only two options which will ever cause any sort of change!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No-one seems to bother that dental treatment is not "free at source" and that opticians also make charges.

I notice the poll is not the 90% support/10% against that it was in the early days of this thread
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

but poor lifestyle choice is a difficult one. Who has made a poor lifestyle choice: the ptsd suffering soldier or the homeless person who has turned to substances after a long and unpleasant life?

You have chosen well with those two particular choices, but are there not those who just indulge themselves as part of what they see as a normal way of life. When in Macclesfield, I have seen many cases of fit young men carrying whole trays of what looks like a large number of cans of beer from a supermarket, heading for the bus station, which I take are not medically prescribed.

 

[DarloRich]

No-one seems to bother that dental treatment is not "free at source" and that opticians also make charges.

I notice the poll is not the 90% support/10% against that it was in the early days of this thread

Some of us do Paul. Not everyone is in the position you are in of independent means, seniority and security. I haven't been to the dentist for years although I have no option but to pay for my glasses! NHS dental provision has improved markedly in recent years and i could easily find one if i felt the need. A few years ago i wound not have been able to do so.

Despite the change in the % for and against the doctors strike ( which just about reflects the wider media polls on the subject) few people seem able to explain why they don't support the doctors. Why is that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You have chosen well with those two particular choices, but are there not those who just indulge themselves as part of what they see as a normal way of life. When in Macclesfield, I have seen many cases of fit young men carrying whole trays of what looks like a large number of cans of beer from a supermarket, heading for the bus station, which I take are not medically prescribed.

Perhaps they are off to party or holding a wedding reception or a christening. I bought a tray of beers the other night as the price was good. Perhaps they just want to get blotto. What of they drink the same number of beers but in a pub or club? What if they only drink vodka? What if the only drink absinthe? Mind medically prescribed beer seems a good idea! How do I get some?

What of the ostensibly decent businessman who lives on wine and scotch but does his drinking in private before passing out? Is he worthy of treatment? Who is the judge? Who decides what is acceptable? You? me? insurance men? The PM? God?

This is why i don't like the idea of lifestyle being used as the arbiter of treatment or charging. There should be a non judgmental approach to making people better and trying to deal with their issues.

The question should be why people feel the need to drink so much and what we do about it!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Despite the change in the % for and against the doctors strike ( which just about reflects the wider media polls on the subject) few people seem able to explain why they don't support the doctors. Why is that?

One might well ask the same type of question in rock-solid Labour areas why people vote against the Labour Party...:roll:

 

[DarloRich]

One might well ask the same type of question in rock-solid Labour areas why people vote against the Labour Party...:roll:

because they are selfish Tories interested in their own narrow desires rather than working together with their own people to make things better for all

I would assume it is the same reason I voted for Labour all the years I lived in Richmonshire: They don't agree with the polices and views of the dominant party in that area. I was never and would never be afraid to tell someone that. To withhold that information suggests shame or embarrassment about your own views. I would never be embarrassed to express my opinion and nor would i seek to prevent others from doing the same. I may not agree and will say so but would never stop someone expressing their views!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because they are selfish Tories interested in their own narrow desires rather than working together with their own people to make things better for all

Your strong belief in your left-wing principles does you proud, but I am of an age when in the Warsaw Pact countries, such as East Germany (the one with the word "Democratic" in its official state name) employed the services of the Stasi and that was not "working together with their own people to make things better for all"

My Polish heritage is one that I see at such times as being the beginning of the "Solidarnosc" movement as being a rejection of that type of socialism prevailing under the guiding hand of Moscow. The Hungarian uprising of 1956 and the Czech uprising under Alexander Dubcek were both ruthlessly supressed by the Moscow elite previously to that.

That said, it may well go some way to explaining how I hold to my own personal views. Just answer me one question. Am I labouring under a mis- apprehension that as part of the deal rejected by the medical staff was an 11% increase in their basic pay to compensate for the work schedules proposed?

 

[Amberley54]

No-one seems to bother that dental treatment is not "free at source" and that opticians also make charges.

I notice the poll is not the 90% support/10% against that it was in the early days of this thread
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You have chosen well with those two particular choices, but are there not those who just indulge themselves as part of what they see as a normal way of life. When in Macclesfield, I have seen many cases of fit young men carrying whole trays of what looks like a large number of cans of beer from a supermarket, heading for the bus station, which I take are not medically prescribed.

Similarly, I see many many well-heeled shoppers loading several full 6-bottle wine carriers into the back of their Chelsea tractors to return to their workers cottages in Alderley, Mottram and Prestbury

 

[Tetchytyke]

No-one seems to bother that dental treatment is not "free at source" and that opticians also make charges.

Emergency dental treatment, and specialist dental treatment in specialist hospitals, are not charged for.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Emergency dental treatment, and specialist dental treatment in specialist hospitals, are not charged for.

But what percentage is that of the total number of dental patients who regularly attend for dental check-ups at NHS dentists, where a three-band tier of charging applies?

 

[EM2]

"Is there any truth in the statement that an 11% increase was offered on the basic pay of the junior doctors in recompense for the changes that are to be made and this same 11% increase was rejected by those negotiating on behalf of the junior doctors"

It is absolutely true. However, the way that this would actually work in the real world, with the changes in when premium rates will be paid for working at night, at the weekend, and on rest days, means that on average a junior doctor will work 30% more hours for an 11% 'pay rise'.
And the dispute is not about an increase in pay. Junior doctors are fighting for their current pay with no increase in hours or restructuring of the working day which would reduce that pay.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is absolutely true. However, the way that this would actually work in the real world, with the changes in when premium rates will be paid for working at night, at the weekend, and on rest days, means that on average a junior doctor will work 30% more hours for an 11% 'pay rise'.
And the dispute is not about an increase in pay. Junior doctors are fighting for their current pay with no increase in hours or restructuring of the working day which would reduce that pay.

May I thank you for answering my query about the 11% increase to basic pay.

 

[Greenback]

I've had to swing the axe to quite a few recent posts and comments. If this thread is to remain open, everyone will have to refrain from getting personal, having personal conversations and hurling pointed comments at each other.

So please heed this warning to stay on topic and be respectful of other people's views, even if you disagree with them.

 

[Yew]

No-one seems to bother that dental treatment is not "free at source" ...

It is interesting you mention that, as I've recently been finding the matter confusing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

However, the way that this would actually work in the real world, with the changes in when premium rates will be paid for working at night, at the weekend, and on rest days, means that on average a junior doctor will work 30% more hours for an 11% 'pay rise'.

In addition to this, the hourly rate for part-time staff will be lower than the hourly rate for full-time staff.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In addition to this, the hourly rate for part-time staff will be lower than the hourly rate for full-time staff.

But part-time staff will not be working the same "30% more hours" as those classified as full-time staff.

However, we should be all asking if the reason for ensuring a fully operational seven-day NHS system is something that should have been left to carry on as in previous times and if the current Government should have just ignored any "think-tank" proposals that have led to this current state of affairs.

Was it not the case that junior doctors have worked excessive hours in the NHS for years, when Governments of different political persuasions have been in power? What plans were put forward by the last Labour government to eradicate any excessive junior doctors hours iniquities in the NHS system?

If the Government were to say in a Damascene moment that they had listened to all the objections and were withdrawing their current plans and the situation would revert back to that which prevailed before, would all contributors to this thread be pleased to see the previous status quo prevail?