Does anyone ever become disillusioned by railways?

[Schnellzug]

I think even now they have their followers (as many pages on this forum are testament ). I'd be surprised if one wasn't preserved - but then again, if maintaining train computers presents a problem for preservation on a similar scale to the one that the third rail seems to present for preserving lovely slammers, then you may have a point.

By the time that blessed time comes, though, the people who might be interested in preserving one will have been accustomed to working with technology all their lives, so the technology shouldn't be too daunting.
Is there a problem with maintaining third rail EMUs? Isn't it just the lack of electrified lines to run them on? They're very simple technology, after all.

It's possible though by the time the Voyagers are withdrawn, fossil fuel engines will be banned so even if there was a way around the computer issue the trains still may not be able to run.

I'm sure there'd de derogations for the heritage sector, particularly seeing how strong the classic vehicle movement is. Anyway, it might well be possible to adapt most diesels to run on vegetable oil or something similar, they can already, can't they, with only fairly slight modification.

 

[Madge Wildfire]

Yes, been disillusioned with the railways many times.

When steam ended in the 1960s I almost lost interest but struggled on for a few years taking diesel numbers until BR announced the sudden mass withdrawal of hydraulics.

But then I had a resurgence in the late 1970s, but became disillusioned again when all the old locos I had known, such as 24s, 40s and 46s started going to the scrap heap. The closure of the Woodhead route finished me off again.

Then sectorisation rekindled my hopes as the boring old rail-blue gave way to triple grey and various colourful branding on the sides, plus NSE and IC Swallow, Scotrail and others, but they ruined it again by going for privatisation and a proliferation of plastic units.

However, it doesn't seem to matter how many times my enthusiasm gets knocked back, there always seems to be a spark waiting to ignite somewhere under the surface.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Sometimes, yeah.
I always seem to be delayed on trains. Be it a 5 minute delay that makes no difference really, or a half hour delay which makes me miss my connection, or a 2 hour delay which totally messes up my day.
And then you have (a minority of) the staff. Things like charging me too much, suggesting that my ticket has expired when they didn't bother to read the "valid until" date, being rude, complaining that I am paying with a card (well I am sorry - you accept this method of payment - not my problem), and a fair few others. Although I need to stress here that this is defiantly a small minority of staff. Most are fine, and some are absolutely fantastic.
Plus the crap rolling stock that those of is in the south wales valley lines / south west england areas have to put up with.
And then you have some passengers who have no regard for anyone else at all.
I don't really have any other option though (as buses take way too long to make the journeys I need to make, and as a 21 year old male car insurance is disgustingly expensive). And as hinted at about, you do sometimes get very nice members of staff who do put a smile on your face. And it is kind of an interest (I have a curious mind which tends to get interested in how things work etc, and the goings on of certain things). So despite all of the above, I still find it worth it .

 

[Madge Wildfire]

Plus the crap rolling stock that those of is in the south wales valley lines / south west england areas have to put up with.

You are right there. 30+ year old 143s and 150s are just rubbish, but we are obviously not quality enough to have anything else. We might get electrification in 10 years time so we can put up with slums on wheels until we get that (but even then, we will no doubt get someone else's cast offs).

When I commuted to Cardiff, it was great to get a 158 occasionally although the seats are so close together that anyone over 6ft tall must reach their destination with spinal injuries.

And yet, I would see the regular Nottingham trains arrive with posh looking 170s and be filled with envy for their passengers. And this was 8 years ago, but nothing seems to have changed. The dog boxes are still there.

 

[WestCoast]

Plus the crap rolling stock that those of is in the south wales valley lines / south west england areas have to put up with.

This is a common factor shared with the North West and North East, with regards to the stock used on most local or commuter services.

There is an underlying attitude in this country that certain areas (and I am not saying which, but I am sure you can guess) should be priortised for new rolling stock. This seems to be for economic reasons.

Now without entering into the notion of 'grass being greener' I have rarely found this to be the case on other European networks, where the distribution of new stock seems to spread more evenly across countries.

 

[Zoe]

There is an underlying attitude in this country that certain areas (and I am not saying which, but I am sure you can guess) should be priortised for new rolling stock.

The railways in Britain are run for profit so it's not unreasonable for the investment to be where the return is expected to be higher.

 

[WestCoast]

The railways in Britain are run for profit so it's not unreasonable for the investment to be where the return is expected to be higher.

Well, it's not an ethos I support. It's not a notion that I believe is necessarilly happening either; London Midland now gains more subsidy than Northern and yet the rolling stock is very different.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The railways in Britain are run for profit so it's not unreasonable for the investment to be where the return is expected to be higher.

Actually to a point it is unreasonable a
Passenger in ther north pays their fare like anyone else but by far the majority gets spent down south! The north of the country gets shafted constantly by the DaFT, you just have to look at pacers to see that

 

[Zoe]

If the HSTs remain in service on the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance route until 2035 then they will be up to 60 years old. Would this be the oldest stock ever to be in main line service?
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Passenger in ther north pays their fare like anyone else but by far the majority gets spent down south! The north of the country gets shafted constantly by the DaFT, you just have to look at pacers to see that

I don't disagree with you on that but when you have a capitalist system then you'd expect the investment to be where it will benefit the economy the most.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't disagree with you on that but when you have a capitalist system then you'd expect the investment to be where it will benefit the economy the most.

And it may benefit the economy the most outside the South East, where lines have reached saturation and the government is effectively having to discourage peak rail travel with ever increasing fares.

As a case study, take the Airedale & Wharfedale lines in West Yorkshire. Upgraded from a non-electrified line with 142s to an electrified line with 333s and more frequent services. Usage soars and the local economies benefit massively because of access to jobs e.t.c.

We've all seen what can happen when a devolved administration like Transport Scotland can invest in the railways.

 

[Zoe]

As a case study, take the Airedale & Wharfedale lines in West Yorkshire. Upgraded from a non-electrified line with 142s to an electrified line with 333s and more frequent services. Usage soars and the local economies benefit massively because of access to jobs e.t.c.

There isn't money for everything though. The North is set to benefit quite a bit though from HS2.

 

[WestCoast]

There isn't money for everything though. The North is set to benefit quite a bit though from HS2.

I am referring generally to areas of reduced spending. There is as much of an East-West divide as there is a North-South divide. It's foolish to think that there isn't potential on many corridors in these areas, and it's also foolish to think that the investment won't necessarily bring high returns.

 

[ainsworth74]

The North is set to benefit quite a bit though from HS2.

In about 20 years and that's only the inter-city flows. How are the local lines going to benefit from it (such as the Airedale/Wharfdale example)?

 

[sprinterguy]

You are right there. 30+ year old 143s and 150s are just rubbish, but we are obviously not quality enough to have anything else.

20+ years old. The two prototype 150s, the oldest of the Sprinters and also older than the Pacers that are currently in service, are getting close to their 30th birthdays now but even they're not quite there yet! I think that FGWs' and ATWs' refurbished 150s are actually in pretty good condition internally IMO, although FGWs' fleet has now been tarnished with the arrival of a large number of ex-London Midland units with their cramped 3+2 seating and drab interior.

Trains have got a useful working life of 30-40 years, roughly twice that of a typical bus, so providing that they are kept in decent condition with a good refurb every 10-15 years or so there should be no calls for withdrawing the 150s just yet. The Pacers are a completely different matter mind, and the optimist in me hopes that there should at least be a reduction in the number of Pacers on the Valley Lines within the next five years as a result of 165s being released from Thames Valley services, allowing excess 150s to move across from FGW. Perhaps replacing ATWs' 142s to leave the generally less maligned 143s for a couple more years. And then, hopefully, electrification.

 

[yorksrob]

By the time that blessed time comes, though, the people who might be interested in preserving one will have been accustomed to working with technology all their lives, so the technology shouldn't be too daunting.
Is there a problem with maintaining third rail EMUs? Isn't it just the lack of electrified lines to run them on? They're very simple technology, after all.

I wasn't thinking of a particular technical issue as such, rather of the complete brick wall that seems to exist when it comes to running preserved EMU's on the mainline.

 

[ACE1888]

Absolutely never, always loved all things British Railways, never stopped 'following the scene' that I can remember, as I'm not 'politically' motivated (as they're all liars/ as bad as each other anyway) and railways , in this country can be VERY political, as long as there's something happening, or something to read about/photograph/ go and see, that's fine with me 'Just can't get enough' basically

 

[LE Greys]

Dissolusioned? Yes, for the same reason I'm dissolusioned with air travel, there isn't enough variety and nothing has any real style. Mind you, that's true for many many other things. You hardly see any independent shops in a high street, they're all chains. Why can't I turn up at a station and see something that's not a recreation of Edwardian elegance but does its best to be better than that? Why can't trains be faster, longer and more comfortable? Everyone is thinking of the bottom line, not of the history they're making. We're in a world driven entirely by money, where value is a more important deciding factor than quality. I don't like it, but I have to live with it. But for once, just for once, I want to be able to turn up at a station and see the latest, fastest and most comfortable train pull in.

 

[Schnellzug]

Dissolusioned? Yes, for the same reason I'm dissolusioned with air travel, there isn't enough variety and nothing has any real style. Mind you, that's true for many many other things. You hardly see any independent shops in a high street, they're all chains. Why can't I turn up at a station and see something that's not a recreation of Edwardian elegance but does its best to be better than that? Why can't trains be faster, longer and more comfortable? Everyone is thinking of the bottom line, not of the history they're making. We're in a world driven entirely by money, where value is a more important deciding factor than quality. I don't like it, but I have to live with it. But for once, just for once, I want to be able to turn up at a station and see the latest, fastest and most comfortable train pull in.

If (according to some economic theories) Capitalism is going to go pop before long, the bottom line may no longer be important. Of course, the irony is that it already is completely meaningless, since none of the gigantic sums of money that are always paraded about actually exist at all. It's all completely imaginary.

 

[WestCoast]

Dissolusioned? Yes, for the same reason I'm dissolusioned with air travel, there isn't enough variety and nothing has any real style. Mind you, that's true for many many other things. You hardly see any independent shops in a high street, they're all chains. Why can't I turn up at a station and see something that's not a recreation of Edwardian elegance but does its best to be better than that? Why can't trains be faster, longer and more comfortable? Everyone is thinking of the bottom line, not of the history they're making. We're in a world driven entirely by money, where value is a more important deciding factor than quality. I don't like it, but I have to live with it. But for once, just for once, I want to be able to turn up at a station and see the latest, fastest and most comfortable train pull in.

The funny thing is if you've got money you can have all that elegance and the latest technology on all modes of travel. Buy a top of the range car, take a trip on the Maglev in Shanghai or take a flight on an Emirates A380 relaxing in a private suite with an onboard lounge and showers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If (according to some economic theories) Capitalism is going to go pop before long, the bottom line may no longer be important..

Capitalism is by no means perfect in any way, but realistically what alternative is there?

 

[Anon Mouse]

I've used the Maglev in Shanghai and I'm only a Conductor! VIP class in one direction. I've also had Business Class between Mumbai and Bangkok due to a double booked seat. Anything is possible!

 

[Zoe]

Capitalism is by no means perfect in any way, but realistically what alternative is there?

If in the future automation removes the need for most jobs then I can't see capitalism surviving. Maybe anther system wouldn't be such a bad idea at that time.

 

[Yew]

If in the future automation removes the need for most jobs then I can't see capitalism surviving. Maybe anther system wouldn't be such a bad idea at that time.

Machines need maintaining, and I imagine that realistically to keep things going, many jobs that could be automated wont be. For example some germain car makers (bmw or audi, i cant remember) keep jobs in germany as opposed to outsourcing in order to prob up their market, as their employees buy their cars.

 

[Zoe]

Machines need maintaining

Maintenance robots? It may sound silly now but if you had told someone 200 years ago about modern computers they may well have thought you were mad.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Maintenance robots? It may sound silly now but if you had told someone 200 years ago about modern computers they may well have thought you were mad.

and being able to see each other while sitting in front of a screen in different Continents.....you would have been away in the white van im sure!

 

[Minilad]

and being able to see each other while sitting in front of a screen in different Continents.....you would have been away in the white van im sure!

What about 4 coach trains working services from the West Country to Scotland.
Bet that would have been met with guffaws too

 

[Anon Mouse]

What about 4 coach trains working services from the West Country to Scotland.
Bet that would have been met with guffaws too

and with no Restaurant Car

 

[LE Greys]

The funny thing is if you've got money you can have all that elegance and the latest technology on all modes of travel. Buy a top of the range car, take a trip on the Maglev in Shanghai or take a flight on an Emirates A380 relaxing in a private suite with an onboard lounge and showers.

Almost like an Empire Flying Boat. Unlike them, I'd hardly call an A380 elegant. They look like bloated whales and the internal opulence seems just as tacky as any mass-produced machine. I'd rather arrive in Dubai in four hours in a business-class seat, thanks. And what modern car has anything on this? The Chinese maglev is nice, though. One day, I hope we'll see something better than that at King's Cross (even if that just means giving it MkI seats).

Capitalism is by no means perfect in any way, but realistically what alternative is there?

A Churchill put it, "Democracy is the very worst form of Government, until you look at all the rest." The same applies.