Does RPI have a right to seize your ticket if...

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TSR :D

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I know it is standard procedure for RPIs and inspectors to seize any tickets they suspect that may be involved in the fraud.

What happens if you have two tickets and one were used for fraud reasons and another was for genuine use?

Example:

You have a two oyster cards, one is travelcard and one is student card with £5 PAYG balance just in case if you lose your travelcard. You go out to club and return only to find that your mate (student) has lost his, so you need to lend him one which is your student card. At the barriers, you and your mate gets caught for fraud use of card. Would your travelcard get seized? Or is it PAYG card only?

(I am in no way advocating the fraud use of cards).
 
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island

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Any RPI can theoretically seize any ticket at any time, because tickets remain the property of the railway.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) it is permitted for an Officer to gather any Evidence and to retain it for as long as may be necessary to investigate a suspected Crime. Although much of PACE has since been repealled and superceeded by SOCPA and others, we generally refer to PACE when gathering Evidence. Tickets and the like would be among the first items I would expect an Officer to wish to take as Evidence.

I am somewhat confused by the example of the mate, student, travelcards, club, balance, lending, Fraud and don't know which of these factors are crucial to your question and which are attempting to illustrate something else. I'm sorry but I can't repond to that part of your question.
 

yorkie

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You have a two oyster cards, one is travelcard and one is student card with £5 PAYG balance just in case if you lose your travelcard. You go out to club and return only to find that your mate (student) has lost his, so you need to lend him one which is your student card.
The question is wrong. You do not "need" to do that.

Oyster cards with no discounts/Travelcards are transferable but I am pretty sure that it is made clear when you load a discount/Travelcard on that the Oyster card is no longer transferable. You appear to be aware of this...
At the barriers, you and your mate gets caught for fraud use of card. Would your travelcard get seized? Or is it PAYG card only?
There is no reason why they could not seize both.

The prosecution could make a case that you always intended for your mates to use the discount card, and that your excuse that it was in case you lost your Travelcard could be seen as unbelievable.

Have you seen The Tube? They can easily look at the Oyster history for both cards, and consider the history of both cards in conjunction with CCTV evidence. If there was evidence of repeated misuse then a strong case for prosecution over a period of time could be made, which could have very serious consequences.
 

swadbus

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I think the OP refers to a student Oyster photocard?
It is allowed to be transferred as long as the user isn't using any part of the discounted fare (ie, the full and correct undiscounted PAYG fare is paid). There would be no financial loss, so no fare evaded.

The student oyster means the student discount only applies to period passes stored on the card, no discounts apply to pay-as-you-go journies using a student oyster card, so this would mean the correct full pay-as-you-go fare would have been paid.

Whether an RCI/RPI/guard is trained correctly to identify this is another matter... As long as no discount is applied to the PAYG fare (eg, other discount could also be stored on the card... For example YP senior etc, new deal, bus and tram etc) I would not withdraw it as an RPI.
 
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barrykas

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It is allowed to be transferred as long as the user isn't using any part of the discounted fare (ie, the full and correct undiscounted PAYG fare is paid). There would be no financial loss, so no fare evaded.
Suggest you check TfL's Conditions of Carriage! Section 5 deals with "Photocards and Oyster photocards" and Condition 5.1 is quite clear on the matter:

Transport for London said:
All photocards and Oyster photocards remain our property and must not be intentionally damaged, altered or tampered with in any way. We may withdraw or cancel your photocard or Oyster photocard at any time. We will only do this for a good reason and if we do, we may give you a receipt. If a photocard is needed, you can only use your ticket or Oyster card when you have your photocard with you. This also applies to Oyster photocards when used with a printed ticket.

If you have an Oyster photocard or Oyster card with a valid discount concession on it, you cannot transfer it to anyone else to use. If you have an Oyster card with a valid discount concession on it, you can only use it if you have the appropriate supporting photocard or National Railcard with you.
And from Condition 6.1.3:

Transport for London said:
If you have an Oyster photocard or Oyster card with a valid discount concession on it, you cannot lend or transfer it to anyone else. If you do, we may withdraw the Oyster photocard and you may forfeit the right to any refund on the unused value of your season ticket, pay as you go credit and/or the deposit. The person using your Oyster photocard or Oyster card may be subject to a Penalty fare and/or prosecution.
Looks pretty clear cut to me...

Cheers,

Barry
 

swadbus

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Suggest you check TfL's Conditions of Carriage! Section 5 deals with "Photocards and Oyster photocards" and Condition 5.1 is quite clear on the matter:



And from Condition 6.1.3:



Looks pretty clear cut to me...

Cheers,

Barry
Note several uses of the word "MAY" and the term "VALID DISCOUNT CONCESSION".

If using PAYG there is no "valid discount concession" being used on the student card, as student discount is not available/valid on PAYG.
 

Mike395

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If you have an Oyster photocard or Oyster card with a valid discount concession on it, you cannot transfer it to anyone else to use.
That seems clear enough to me - if its a photocard, it cannot be transferred. No mention is made as to whether you're using any loaded discount or not, and besides, whats to say that the person who has been caught hadn't been using the Travelcard concession fraudulently before? :)
 

John @ home

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That seems clear enough to me - if its a photocard, it cannot be transferred. No mention is made as to whether you're using any loaded discount or not
We will have to disagree on this. It seems completely clear to me that a Oyster card which is a student photocard without a season ticket loaded may be transferred and used for non-discounted PAYG. The discount concession does not become valid until a season ticket is loaded on the card, and it is at that moment that the card becomes non-transferable.
 

Mike395

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Ah, I misread the OP - I assumed that they were using it outside of the Travelcard zones loaded on the season, rather than without a season loaded on the card. Apologies :)
 

island

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We will have to disagree on this. It seems completely clear to me that a Oyster card which is a student photocard without a season ticket loaded may be transferred and used for non-discounted PAYG. The discount concession does not become valid until a season ticket is loaded on the card, and it is at that moment that the card becomes non-transferable.
Ah, I misread the OP - I assumed that they were using it outside of the Travelcard zones loaded on the season, rather than without a season loaded on the card. Apologies :)
Not out of the woods yet I'd say. Depends on your reading of

If you have an Oyster photocard or Oyster card with a valid discount concession on it
If you read it as "If you have (an Oyster photocard or Oyster card) with a valid discount concession on it", then that supports John @ home's conclusion that it is transferable.

If you read it as "If you have an Oyster photocard or (Oyster card with a valid discount concession) on it", then that suggests it is not.
 

yorkie

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Am I missing something or does this not make sense?

Why would someone have a full-fare Travelcard on an Oyster card, and on a separate Oyster card that entitles them to discounted Travelcards, only use that for PAYG in case they lose their full-fare Travelcard.

Surely it would make sense to have a discounted Travelcard on the Student Oyster card, and use a regular Oyster card for PAYG as a backup?
 

swt_passenger

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I was wondering exactly what the point of an Oyster photocard was - if it doesn't give any benefit or discount to the individual whose photo is on the card?
 
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