Door controls: Do they do anything?

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KingDaveRa

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Doors on trains seem to have gone through various cycles of user control - first being fully under the control of the user, then being locked in by the guard, then being back under user control in the days of the slam door stock. A conversation on Twitter about door controls made me wonder, what is the current 'method' that doors are under for control?

I.e., when a train pulls into a station, how are the doors controlled? Does the driver/guard simply control locking, or do they actually open them, or CAN they open them in some instances, and in others let the passenger do it via the door opener buttons? Do the door opener buttons do anything at all, or are they there simply to give us the illusion of control?

The only one I could say I know about is the Chiltern Bubble car, as that has interlocks the guard controls, but otherwise you have to turn a nob to open them. Sliding doors are a little more intriguing I think.

I've never really paid enough attention to work out one way or the other, so I wonder if anybody has a more definitive answer?
 
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swt_passenger

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I didn't know this was a much discussed subject. I'll go dig.

You don't need to dig far in this sub-forum: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=131140

But one of your main points, do the door controls actually do anything, is basically ridiculous.

You'd never get on or off a normal train otherwise. LU is different of course, but I don't think any 'mainline' trains routinely open all doors remotely.
 

Bletchleyite

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Merseyrail do, but there are no passenger controls. The only trains I know of where the buttons do nothing is the Tube, and those are being progressively removed where this is the case.
 

headshot119

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You don't need to dig far in this sub-forum: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=131140

But one of your main points, do the door controls actually do anything, is basically ridiculous.

You'd never get on or off a normal train otherwise. LU is different of course, but I don't think any 'mainline' trains routinely open all doors remotely.

Merseyrail 507s / 508s open all doors when the guard presses "Door open". (Though the 508s originally had door controls for the passengers they where removed).

It's not such a ridiculous suggestion to make if the OP is used to using the tube.
 

swt_passenger

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Merseyrail 507s / 508s open all doors when the guard presses "Door open". (Though the 508s originally had door controls for the passengers they where removed).
I was unaware of that, but it is is still fairly unusual when considering the entire national network though...
It's not such a ridiculous suggestion to make if the OP is used to using the tube.
"The only one I could say I know about is the Chiltern Bubble car" would suggest his experience doesn't extend very far at all.
 
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Tetchytyke

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The only trains I know of where the buttons do nothing is the Tube, and those are being progressively removed where this is the case.

And even with the sub-surface stock it's a bit more complicated than that. The buttons don't initially open the doors, the driver does, but if the doors have automatically closed (e.g. waiting for a while at a station) then the buttons do work to open them.
 

theageofthetra

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Its amazing the number of times I see passengers in London standing by a Networker expecting the doors to open on their own. So no its not a silly question at all. Many passengers are used to the tube or subway systems abroad and may not be used to our quirks.
 

headshot119

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And even with the sub-surface stock it's a bit more complicated than that. The buttons don't initially open the doors, the driver does, but if the doors have automatically closed (e.g. waiting for a while at a station) then the buttons do work to open them.

I thought on the S stock, the driver could select whether to release and open all the doors, or just activate the passenger doors controls. Is that correct?
 

Bromley boy

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Doors on trains seem to have gone through various cycles of user control - first being fully under the control of the user, then being locked in by the guard, then being back under user control in the days of the slam door stock. A conversation on Twitter about door controls made me wonder, what is the current 'method' that doors are under for control?

I.e., when a train pulls into a station, how are the doors controlled? Does the driver/guard simply control locking, or do they actually open them, or CAN they open them in some instances, and in others let the passenger do it via the door opener buttons? Do the door opener buttons do anything at all, or are they there simply to give us the illusion of control?

The only one I could say I know about is the Chiltern Bubble car, as that has interlocks the guard controls, but otherwise you have to turn a nob to open them. Sliding doors are a little more intriguing I think.

I've never really paid enough attention to work out one way or the other, so I wonder if anybody has a more definitive answer?

On the DOO services I drive the driver releases the doors by pushing "door open" buttons in the cab. This energises the passenger door buttons. No doors will open unless operated by passengers wishing to board/alight. To depart the driver presses "door close" which starts the closing sequence (hustler alarm, closure) and waits for a blue interlock light. Until the interlock light is illuminated he cannot take power, but can still release the brakes and potentially roll the train.

On some stock individual doors opened by passengers will close after a given time period but will remain accessible should other passengers wish to open them. When the driver operates close doors the closed doors will immediately lock shut and open doors will sound a hustler alarm and then close.

Other stock I have driven which is guard operated, the driver stops, puts up the door release and simply waits. The guard closes the train doors from a key operated panel, does a safety check from the platform, then closes his local door (giving interlock) and gives the driver the right away.
 
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MrPIC

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Class 379 stock has door release and door open buttons, so the river could if he wishes open all doors. Doesn't ever happen though. Class 317 stock has a door test button which will open all doors on the side of the given release, but this is only used for testing the doors and not during passenger service.
 

sarahj

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I once had a punter come running down, 'shouting that the doors had not opened at a station. Apologised, informed I'd not noticed any issues, other passengers had left. Cursing, he went to leave at the next station. Train stopped, door open lights came on, he just stood there. Me: You have to press the button for them to open'. As he left the train I'm sure he was slight shade of red.:lol:

I'm sure some passengers see the signs 'automatic doors' and think they open without any help.
 

najaB

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When the driver operates close doors the closed doors will immediately lock shut and open doors will sound a hustler alarm and then close.
Isn't there a weird 'feature' of some stock that means that if the passenger were to press the open button after the driver has pressed the close button (but before the open doors were to complete their closure cycle) then the door will open, but then immediately close with some force without the hustle alarm sounding? Though I remember that being mentioned.
 

bluegoblin7

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I thought on the S stock, the driver could select whether to release and open all the doors, or just activate the passenger doors controls. Is that correct?

Yes, although the 'passenger-open' mode isn't used in practice.

The only trains I know of where the buttons do nothing is the Tube, and those are being progressively removed where this is the case.

Aside for the aforementioned S stock as above. These aren't being removed (Technically they're still being added if we count the additional S7+1 being built), and are vital to the train's functionality. Doors will auto-close after a set time to ensure the air-con works well; the buttons (inside and out) allow that set to be re-opened.
 

TEW

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To depart the driver presses "door close" which starts the closing sequence (hustler alarm, closure) and waits for a blue interlock light. Until the interlock light is illuminated he cannot take power, but can still release the brakes and potentially roll the train.
I trust you do a bit more than just wait for the interlock light to illuminate. The driver of a DOO train carrying out self despatch is responsible for carrying out the same train safety check a guard or member of platform staff would.

Isn't there a weird 'feature' of some stock that means that if the passenger were to press the open button after the driver has pressed the close button (but before the open doors were to complete their closure cycle) then the door will open, but then immediately close with some force without the hustle alarm sounding? Though I remember that being mentioned.
Yes, it's an issue affecting Networker stock, and happened in the trap & drag incident at West Wickham.
 

Bromley boy

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I trust you do a bit more than just wait for the interlock light to illuminate. The driver of a DOO train carrying out self despatch is responsible for carrying out the same train safety check a guard or member of platform staff would.

I should have thought that went without saying. But yes indeed it is necessary to check nobody is trapped in the doors before departing, just as it is necessary to check you've stopped at the correct point on the platform and double check the side of the platform before releasing them.
 

sarahj

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Small things can get caught as well, and you still get the interlock. Once, in the pouring rain at Swanwick, I'd just pushed the doors close button, when a punter ran onto the platform, holding a umbrella out in front. The doors closed on the umbrella, holding it in the door, sticking out at about chest height. The Bil (interlock) light went out. If I'd not seen the brolly sticking out as I was only one coach away, we could have gone, with it sticking out. I got the driver to release the doors, whence the brolly then fell on the track. Passenger (very posh and in an evening suit), complained that I called him an idiot. I said that anyone the other side of the door could have been injured by you running brolly pointy end first. :roll:
 

Bromley boy

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Isn't there a weird 'feature' of some stock that means that if the passenger were to press the open button after the driver has pressed the close button (but before the open doors were to complete their closure cycle) then the door will open, but then immediately close with some force without the hustle alarm sounding? Though I remember that being mentioned.

That has been the case in the past. Not sure whether it is still the case and it no doubt varies by stock type.
 

HLE

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On the DOO services I drive the driver releases the doors by pushing "door open" buttons in the cab. This energises the passenger door buttons. No doors will open unless operated by passengers wishing to board/alight. To depart the driver presses "door close" which starts the closing sequence (hustler alarm, closure) and waits for a blue interlock light. Until the interlock light is illuminated he cannot take power, but can still release the brakes and potentially roll the train.

On some stock individual doors opened by passengers will close after a given time period but will remain accessible should other passengers wish to open them. When the driver operates close doors the closed doors will immediately lock shut and open doors will sound a hustler alarm and then close.

Other stock I have driven which is guard operated, the driver stops, puts up the door release and simply waits. The guard closes the train doors from a key operated panel, does a safety check from the platform, then closes his local door (giving interlock) and gives the driver the right away.

And on some stock the driver isn't directly involved in any part of the door opening/close sequence.

*apart from returning the 2 on the buzzer
 
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Bromley boy

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And on some stock the driver isn't directly involved in any part of the door opening/close sequence.

Relatively few remaining like this I suspect, more's the pity. Chiltern's loco hauled stock may be one?
 

Bromley boy

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Surely that's most non doo trains?

Looking at the thread running on open/closing procedures on guard operated trains, a good deal of them involve the driver opening the doors/guard closing etc.
 

DerekC

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The new Class 700s have three modes:

a) Guard operated (guard enables opening and closes)

b) Driver operated (driver enables opening and closes)

c) Semi-automatic (automatic opening, driver closes)

Semi-automatic operation only works under ATO control in ETCS areas where special additional balises are fitted. The train uses these to check that it has stopped in the right place before opening the doors. If this fails the driver can still enable opening as (b).
 

380101

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On the DOO services I drive the driver releases the doors by pushing "door open" buttons in the cab. This energises the passenger door buttons. No doors will open unless operated by passengers wishing to board/alight. To depart the driver presses "door close" which starts the closing sequence (hustler alarm, closure) and waits for a blue interlock light. Until the interlock light is illuminated he cannot take power, but can still release the brakes and potentially roll the train..

most newer units have traction interlock linked to the brakes. ie; if there is doors open or released then the brake is on in step 3 or full service. This is certainly the case for Desiro 380 and also 156 sprinter. Class 318s are slowly getting modified to have brake interlock with doors open to avoid roll backs/roll aways with doors open.
 

Nym

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Merseyrail do, but there are no passenger controls. The only trains I know of where the buttons do nothing is the Tube, and those are being progressively removed where this is the case.

S Stock has auto close that can be suppressed, opening the doors while in 'passenger open' needs the door open buttons after the auto close has functioned, unless suppressed. Also of course when the train is set of "Passenger Open", a function set in MITRAC.

Similarly, 1992TS still has a functioning "Passenger Open / All Open" function, even if the controls are removed.
 

gsnedders

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Merseyrail do, but there are no passenger controls. The only trains I know of where the buttons do nothing is the Tube, and those are being progressively removed where this is the case.

Class 314s are another example of stock with no passenger controls.
 

edwin_m

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Aside for the aforementioned S stock as above. These aren't being removed (Technically they're still being added if we count the additional S7+1 being built), and are vital to the train's functionality. Doors will auto-close after a set time to ensure the air-con works well; the buttons (inside and out) allow that set to be re-opened.

I think the previous post was referring to the 95 and 96 stock (?), built with passenger-operated "open" buttons that were never used. Ironically the Independent was running a campaign a few years back for open access to something or other, and used a picture of one of those non-functional buttons at the head of each related article.

Some of the older Tube stock had a mode where only the single-leaf doors at the ends of the coaches would stay open, to reduce draughts when waiting at open-air termini.

Central Trains 170s had internal "Close" as well as "Open" buttons but these had stickers saying they were for staff use only. I assume this was to get round a mis-wording in the RVAR regulations, which made it illegal for the hustle alarm to sound if the door was closed by a passenger.
 

po8crg

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I like the door controls on the M5000 trams in Manchester and suggest that a lot of suburban rail stock could copy them.

You can push the open button at any time. It then flashes, and that door opens when released. Obviously, if you push it after the door is released, it opens immediately.

It means I can put down luggage, push the button and then pick it up again and have it in hand when the door opens so I don't block the doors picking stuff up after pushing the button.
 
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