Doubling the Felixstowe branch?

[yorksrob]

Why? How many extra possessions would need to be planned, booked and paid for if you are losing at least 5 hours per weekend?




Well of course it would, freight would also benefit from a 7 day railway...but as much of the network closes on a Saturday evening for engineering work across the country, not much point running freight down if you can't get it back up again.

I'm not sure how many extra posessions it would take, but presumably freight requires stability that it can plan around.

In that respect, for freight that is used to a seven day railway and which is going to have to adjust its timetables anyway, I would have thought it would be easier to plan around a shorter weekly disruption over a longer period.

I would also dispute the idea that closing early on a saturday is particularly commonplace elsewhere on the network. In my experience, weekend works are usually for the whole weekend or the Sunday only - and quite right too, given the comparatively large amount of disruption to passengers from shutting up early on Saturday, in propotion to the additional amount of extra works time generated.

 

[GB]

Freight trains that would be booked to arrive at the port Saturday evening would not be booked out again untill Sunday morning having had a minimum of 5-6 hours lay over for unloading/reloading. If they come out sunday morning (even early morning at 0200-0300) then at some point on the network there will be engineering works taking place. Granted some weekends you would probably get away with it....but certainly not reliable enough to offer a proper and reliable service to the customers.

 

[yorksrob]

Freight trains that would be booked to arrive at the port Saturday evening would not be booked out again untill Sunday morning having had a minimum of 5-6 hours lay over for unloading/reloading. If they come out sunday morning (even early morning at 0200-0300) then at some point on the network there will be engineering works taking place. Granted some weekends you would probably get away with it....but certainly not reliable enough to offer a proper and reliable service to the customers.

But there are presumably freight trains which arrive earlier on Saturday which could leave on Saturday evening.

 

[AndrewE]

I think the point is that you gain a disproportionate amount from an extended possession: it takes so long to actually get the possession then move all tools and equipment to where they have to work on the track (and the reverse at the end) that extending a 24-hour possession by 6 hours (25%) might well increase the output by a third.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the point is that you gain a disproportionate amount from an extended possession: it takes so long to actually get the possession then move all tools and equipment to where they have to work on the track (and the reverse at the end) that extending a 24-hour possession by 6 hours (25%) might well increase the output by a third.

But you create a disproportionate amount of disruption as well, effectively screwing up Saturday for passengers as they can't get back.

 

[The Planner]

The cost of binning the passenger service is minuscule in comparison to the freight in terms of compensation to operators in locations like this. Most freight dies off around lunchtime/early afternoon on a Saturday.

 

[eastdyke]

But you create a disproportionate amount of disruption as well, effectively screwing up Saturday for passengers as they can't get back.

But they do run a rail replacement bus for the cancelled services.

 

[yorksrob]

But they do run a rail replacement bus for the cancelled services.

If it was me, I'd change my plans.

 

[yorksrob]

The cost of binning the passenger service is minuscule in comparison to the freight in terms of compensation to operators in locations like this. Most freight dies off around lunchtime/early afternoon on a Saturday.

In that case, I wonder whether a return freight might run Saturday evening, rather than Sunday morning.

 

[eastdyke]

If it was me, I'd change my plans.

Entirely your choice, at least you have had plenty of notice

 

[AndrewE]

But you create a disproportionate amount of disruption as well, effectively screwing up Saturday for passengers as they can't get back.

Agreed, although for something like a short branch line a RR bus might be acceptable for a short while. Especially as it might mean only 4 sessions instead of 5 or even 6. Or go the whole hog and do it in 2 weekends.

 

[GB]

But you create a disproportionate amount of disruption as well, effectively screwing up Saturday for passengers as they can't get back.

What about the disproportionate disruption for those that want to travel on a Sunday or those living near the works having to cope with the extra Sunday closures? How will the extra Sunday closures affect the actual engineering project as a whole?

Its only four round trips that are replaced and if they actually ran as a train service the last one from Ipswich to Felixstowe is about 2230 with the last return ex Felixstowe around 2300....given there is replacement bus options available its not exactly a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.

 

[yorksrob]

Entirely your choice, at least you have had plenty of notice

Well, I've had to work around nearly a years worth of Saturday disruption this year (on another route) so I'm used to it.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed, although for something like a short branch line a RR bus might be acceptable for a short while. Especially as it might mean only 4 sessions instead of 5 or even 6. Or go the whole hog and do it in 2 weekends.

I think it's fair enough when its a few weekends. We need to be doing more for passengers when its a year of Saturdays !

 

[yorksrob]

What about the disproportionate disruption for those that want to travel on a Sunday or those living near the works having to cope with the extra Sunday closures? How will the extra Sunday closures affect the actual engineering project as a whole?

Its only four round trips that are replaced and if they actually ran as a train service the last one from Ipswich to Felixstowe is about 2230 with the last return ex Felixstowe around 2300....given there is replacement bus options available its not exactly a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.

Fair point, although I suspect the majority of people would prefer Sunday disruption to the whole weekend being ballsed up. On my route we've endured a two hourly service on Sundays, so it can't be as crucial as a Saturday ! (although obviously I would support a better Sunday service).

 

[Class 170101]

I would also dispute the idea that closing early on a saturday is particularly commonplace elsewhere on the network. In my experience, weekend works are usually for the whole weekend or the Sunday only - and quite right too, given the comparatively large amount of disruption to passengers from shutting up early on Saturday, in propotion to the additional amount of extra works time generated.

The East Coast closes for disruptive possessions around 13:00 Saturday and re-opens at 13:00ish on Sunday for possessions of any part of the line between Newcastle and Hitchin as a general rule of thumb.

 

[AndrewE]

I think it's fair enough when its a few weekends. We need to be doing more for passengers when its a year of Saturdays !

or 6 months of total closure (Crewe to Manchester!)

 

[Tobbes]

Given the importance of Felixstowe to the local economy, a small amount of inconvenience/bustitution to get the improvements made (and more lorries off the A14!) is a miniscule price to pay.

 

[yorksrob]

The East Coast closes for disruptive possessions around 13:00 Saturday and re-opens at 13:00ish on Sunday for possessions of any part of the line between Newcastle and Hitchin as a general rule of thumb.

Is this for freight in particular ? In the last twenty years of using it, I can't recall the last Saturday trains on the ECML being bustituted when I've needed them (diverted via Lincoln occasionally but not replaced).

 

[yorksrob]

Given the importance of Felixstowe to the local economy, a small amount of inconvenience/bustitution to get the improvements made (and more lorries off the A14!) is a miniscule price to pay.

That rather depends if you're a passenger whose train has been bustituted for a year !

 

[yorksrob]

or 6 months of total closure (Crewe to Manchester!)

Yes, you'd at least have thought they could arrange some sort of diversion for that.

 

[Aictos]

Given the importance of Felixstowe to the local economy, a small amount of inconvenience/bustitution to get the improvements made (and more lorries off the A14!) is a miniscule price to pay.

Indeed, it's something that needs to be done and is being done besides the aftermath of having this work done is a more reliable passenger service as well has taking more freight.

A side note for @The Planner though, I know freight is important but was there a option to have a complete blockade over the weekend from 02:00 Saturday morning to 04:00 Monday morning over say 4 or 5 weekends to have the work done in full?

 

[Class 170101]

Is this for freight in particular ? In the last twenty years of using it, I can't recall the last Saturday trains on the ECML being bustituted when I've needed them (diverted via Lincoln occasionally but not replaced).

No its to suit the East Coast operator that has high demand Saturday mornings and Sunday afternoons and evenings but weaker demand in between time.

 

[yorksrob]

No its to suit the East Coast operator that has high demand Saturday mornings and Sunday afternoons and evenings but weaker demand in between time.

And we've always been led to believe by EC that Sunday afternoons, no one wants to travel (hence the crowded trains ) (not a dig at this thread).

But surely that makes Saturday evenings less busy for freight ? Plus there's always the Lincoln or the MML instead ?

 

[The Planner]

A side note for @The Planner though, I know freight is important but was there a option to have a complete blockade over the weekend from 02:00 Saturday morning to 04:00 Monday morning over say 4 or 5 weekends to have the work done in full?

Freightliner and GBRf would have flatly refused it. Too much traffic on a Saturday.

 

[Class 170101]

Flatly refused by Freightliner even though it benefits them more so than the passenger operator. Its the passenger operator disrupted more in terms of Rail Replacement buses.

 

[The Planner]

And they will be compensated (the very small amount) that the block costs via Schedule 4, they could have taken it to a dispute panel but I willing to bet they didn't even complain.

 

[deltic08]

"Obstacle Detector"- they have full barriers and a system (usually RADAR + LIDAR) to detect if anything is on the crossing. As always the full explanation can be found at http://www.railsigns.uk/info/xings2/xings2.html

Got it. To improve on AHB I assumed it was a kind of full barrier.

Now, what is Lidar? To detect liars using the crossing? Many thanks.

 

[MarkyT]

Got it. To improve on AHB I assumed it was a kind of full barrier.

Now, what is Lidar? To detect liars using the crossing? Many thanks.

Full barriers, protected by signals, with the crossing area monitored by scanning obstacle detection technology. Scanning takes place during the warning light sequence and barrier lowering process, then if the crossing is still clear once barriers are fully lowered, and warning lights remain alight and flashing, a 'crossing clear' release is given to allow signals to clear. Similar to an auto lower/raise MCB (manually controlled barrier) crossing but with the human crossing clear supervision (locally or by cctv) replaced by the obstacle detection technology. Road closed time is significantly longer than AHB types.

LIDAR is a type of detection system which works on the same principles as RADAR, but uses light from a laser instead or radio signals.

 

[LAX54]

They still get a fair amount of work done starting at 1850 and going through to 0400 Monday, The Enginnering trains run down to Felixstowe South, run round and are ready to start work as soon as the block is taken, the RRB for the last 4 rounds is probably just as quick as the train anyway !

Whereas Saturdays on the line used to cool off from lunchtime, in recent years traffic has increased and is quite busy right up to possession time.

With Bi-di signalling from Derby Road to Trimley and beyond this will assist in not (hopefully) having the passenger service stuck behind a freight waiting access to the Port.

The line will also have its own MCS workstation, so taking some of the load off the Ipswich Signaller

We have started getting early Monday freights into the Port, mainly GBRf that run to PQ on a Saturday evening, or to Colchester DGL on a Sunday evening, then go to Felixstowe during the Morning

The current scope for the engineering is limited due to the Freight still needing access, although I think there are some longer possessions coming up...next Bank Holiday I think is a Saturday evening to Tuesday morning.