There is a clear distinction drawn between "premises of [TfL] and any of its subsidiaries" in paragraph (a), which applies to the Underground by virtue of London Underground Limited being owned (via a holding company) by TfL, and "any train ... which is is for the time being used by a ... body for the purposes of providing railway services under an agreement with [TfL] or any of its subsidiaries" in paragraph (b), which would apply to TfL Rail for example, as it is operated under an agreement with MTR Corporation (Crossrail) Limited, similarly for London Overground which is operated under an agreement with Arriva Rail London Limited.(a) the railways and railway premises of Transport for London and any of its subsidiaries including any train, other vehicle, station, depot, track and any associated equipment; and
(b) any train, or other vehicle and any associated equipment which is for the time being used by a person or body for the purposes of providing railway services under an agreement with Transport for London or any of its subsidiaries;
This means that, even though you were not breaking any Byelaws by drinking on the railway in the first place, if the large man was an authorised member of railway staff, he was entitled to require you to leave the railway (for refusing to stop drinking), and it would have been an offence to refuse to comply.
This means that, even though you were not breaking any Byelaws by drinking on the railway in the first place, if the large man was an authorised member of railway staff, he was entitled to require you to leave the railway (for refusing to stop drinking), and it would have been an offence to refuse to comply.
I seem to rember that at Doncaster there was a sign saying that you couldn't take drinks beyond the fenced off area outside the pub door that opened onto the platform. Was well over a year though so might have got it wrong.Same as Sheffield and Doncaster. I think that Crewe may as well.
To the OP when you next go to the same station have a look around to see if there are any notices to say no alcohol to be consumed on this station.
Example - There are no Byelaws against drinking and there are no Byelaws against wearing red sweaters. So, can an authorised member of railway staff ask me to leave a station if I don't take off my sweater - assuming he doesnt like it ?
Surely the law has to be there in the first place. Not just the opinon of someone in authority ?
If I were the OP - I would consider reporting the large guy on the grounds that his behavour is discouraging travel, and probably even hindering the real police in their duties by falsely
"presenting" authority.
Ultimately, even if you have a contractual right to enter the railway (by virtue of holding a ticket), the railway remains private property which you can be told to leave by an agent of the landowner. It is then trespass if you remain, and in the case of the railway therefore a criminal offence. You would have to pursue any resultant breach of contract after the fact.But surely that means that an "authorised member of railway staff" (what does that mean ?) can ask you to leave the railway for any reason he/she likes...
Surely that cannot be ?
Example - There are no Byelaws against drinking and there are no Byelaws against wearing red sweaters. So, can an authorised member of railway staff ask me to leave a station if I don't take off my sweater - assuming he doesnt like it ?
Surely the law has to be there in the first place. Not just the opinon of someone in authority ?
If I were the OP - I would consider reporting the large guy on the grounds that his behavour is discouraging travel, and probably even hindering the real police in their duties by falsely "presenting" authority.
I quite agree that it's woeful customer service, but unfortunately the law isn't on your side so you are best off complying at the time and taking it up later.As a member of staff (or a contractor) he is authorised to ask people to leave but this should only ever be done for a good reason (for example if someone is behaving in a dangerous way, causing a distraction, intoxicated etc). Members of staff absolutely should not be making up rules in order to bully members of the public they’ve taken a dislike to, I say that as a member of railstaff myself.
In this situation I would never advise any kind of outright refusal to do as instructed, but I would certainly encourage someone in the OP’s situation to politely take things further, perhaps by asking to speak to a supervisor.
This is a licensing issue over a "drinking on railway" issue though. When I drink at the Two Chairmen in Westminster (or any C London pub on a quiet street), I often see throngs of civil servants being asked to come out of the road as the pub's licence (and probably their pavement licence) doesn't extend that far. It has varying degrees of success but the one thing that always gets things moving is the Biffa lorry turning up at 1800 on a Thursday. One, the driver is quite aggressive with the horn; two, it stinks. Homeless guy across the way with his can of Special Brew is not bound by the pub manager's increasingly exasperated requests.I seem to rember that at Doncaster there was a sign saying that you couldn't take drinks beyond the fenced off area outside the pub door that opened onto the platform. Was well over a year though so might have got it wrong.
Not picking a fight here - genuinely interested....I quite agree that it's woeful customer service, but unfortunately the law isn't on your side so you are best off complying at the time and taking it up later.
Not picking a fight here - genuinely interested....
But how can complying with a totally unreasonable request and just taking it up later be sensible ?
If I refuse to stop drinking, refuse to take off my red sweater, or refuse cover to up my religious insignia - just because someone "in authority" doesn't like it and a constable is called - what happens ?
Surely the jobsworth is in trouble himself for wasting police time ? Drinking is lawful, (as in the OP's example) the request to stop is unreasonable. These guys need to be trained on that surely?
Not picking a fight here - genuinely interested....
But how can complying with a totally unreasonable request and just taking it up later be sensible ?
If I refuse to stop drinking, refuse to take off my red sweater, or refuse cover up my religious insignia - just because someone "in authority" doesnt like it and a constable is called - what happens ?
Surely the jobsworth is in trouble himself for wasting police time ? Drinking is lawful the request to stop is unreasonable. These guys need to be trained on that surely?
The TfL Railway Byelaws were made under paragraph 26 of Schedule 11 to the Greater London Authority Act 1999 and were confirmed by authority of the Secretary of State for Transport on 6 September 2011.
The TfL Railway Byelaws apply to London Underground, Docklands Light Railway and London Overground services and regulate the use and working of, and travel on, the railway and railway premises and the conduct of all people while on those premises. Railway services operated by other train operating companies are subject to the National Railway Byelaws, a copy of which can be obtained from the relevant operators
Exactly - which is why in the OP's situation now, I wouldn't leave it until next time - I would probably be writing a letter to Northern Rail to complain about what really amounts to a form of bullying. At the very least the guy is confused and ill informed.The authorised member of staff who, against company policy, asked you to leave, has merely rendered them liable to disciplinary action for breaching company policy.
Quite right - they clearly apply on contracted rail services (LO & TfL Rail). But it is the question of stations managed by TfL concessions that is thornier - particularly since several such stations have non-TfL TOCs that call there.The tfl website says that the tfl railway byelaws apply to London Overground services as well
The situation with buses is different - they're not covered by the TfL Railway Byelaws. They are instead covered by the Public Service Vehicles (Conduct) Regulations.Byelaws
The TfL Railway Byelaws regulate the use and working of, and travel on, the railway and railway premises and the conduct of all people while on those premisestfl.gov.uk
By arguing the byelaw doesn't apply on TfL contracted services. You could argue that it is legal to drink on buses and it is most certainly not
I got shouted at by the conductor on the tram. I was drinking a can of coke, cos it was a boiling hot day, the can happened to be white, as it was a Waitrose own brand can. He shouted at me about did I not know alcohol was banned on the tram, (I didnt), and I told him it was just plain coke. Took a bit to convince him. Some people's attitudes leave a bit to be desired. Id have been a lot happier if he'd cone over for a quiet word instead of shouting at me from halfway down the tram. So I can sympathise with the original poster, and the man in the flourescent jacket.
But it works well for the railway. The very forward, some may even say aggressive approach that many of them have is ideal for the railway as it always leans in their favour. Throwing someone out of the station for drinking has no real negative impact on them. If the passenger had a ticket, they will not have to carry them for the revenue they've already made, and if they didn't have a ticket they haven't lost.There is and long has been an attitude problem in the UK private security industry (curiously the same industry in other European countries doesn't have anything like the same problem). It's a shame the railway makes so much use of them.
Contract security guards are fine for guarding stuff, where if you're even there you're in the wrong. But in customer service roles they are just awful.
Only since 1996, and not everywhere. Only designated areas.In Scotland illegal to drink in a public place. Always been the case in Glasgow .
The Falkirk stations were subject to a local council alcohol ban 15 years ago. Haven't checked since thenOne of Scotrails plethora of announcements heard at Falkirk Grahamston at the moment is a ban on drinking onboard or at Stations, I believe this extends to the full Network.
Very much not the case in most of Scotland. It's only in some authorities, and even then usually only in specific designated areas.In Scotland illegal to drink in a public place. Always been the case in Glasgow .
You are right, I was stopped at Glasgow Queen Street by the BTP -after getting of an Edinburgh train with a can in my hand.In Scotland illegal to drink in a public place. Always been the case in Glasgow .
It's not right though, as has been explained.You are right, I was stopped at Glasgow Queen Street by the BTP -after getting of an Edinburgh train with a can in my hand.
I use Untappd and whilst I have enjoyed a beer whilst waiting for a train in the past, most of my station checkins have been whilst on the train. I just checkin to the nearest station i've passed through when it comes to checking in.If anyone here uses Untappd, you'll know there's a "badge" you can earn for checking in beer at railway stations or on trains. I'd like to earn one of those and then put my can in a bin (and then put on my mask)
I see no reason why not. Other staff and Police certainly can do, and plain clothes revenue will identify themselves when speaking to a passenger.Out of general interest, if you are approached by someone not wearing a recognisable railway uniform, are you allowed to request that they produce identification to confirm that they are "railway staff" ?
Because we don't want ill-trained "security" staff to be allowed to invent their own rules and use them to harass passengers who are behaving lawfully on a station platform?I've read the whole thread and I'm still struggling to see what the problem is. Can't you just do as you're told?