Driver Guard hierarchy.

[bnm]

Are there differences in when a guard is in charge of a train, or the driver is?

A specific query I have is departing a station with no starting signal or with a green aspect. The guard gives the 'ding ding' right away to the driver, but it is 3 minutes before the scheduled departure time in the public and working timetables.

Does the driver depart regardless, or at least query the 'right away' from the guard?

 

[Pumbaa]

I don't think the answer has anything to do with hierarchy.

An observant Driver will probably ring the Guard up to let them know it's not time.

The average Driver will accept the bells, as timekeeping is not their primary concern.

 

[Flamingo]

Driver does what the guard tells them, unless there is a big red light in front of them. I wouldn't expect them to query me if I tell them to go.

 

[northernchris]

I used to regularly use a service which had dwell time at 2 stations for 2-3 minutes at each station. On 2-3 occasions the train departed early however there were other occasions when the driver informed the conductor (once via the PA) to check the departure time. I think the guard is in charge, but the driver acts as an extra back up as they also have a copy of the schedule.

Something which I have seen is station staff despatching trains early (on non set down only services) so I assume the platform staff over ride the guard and driver in this instance

 

[Flamingo]

I know at Reading on the up and Newport on the down we can be told to go early, but the platform staff have to tell us first, not just give the tip.

 

[muz379]

Some drivers are observant and will tell you .But some dont consider it part of their job and just go when they are given the buzz buzz .

I am a guard and I have done it myself . We had some engineering work going on and the timetable had changed to give 5 minutes standing time at one station . Forgot all about it at the station . Closed the doors and gave 2 around 4 minutes ahead of schedule . got 1 back from the driver , panicked a bit and went into the cab to use the Cab to cab phone and he laughed and said you've got 5 minutes yet .

At the TOC I work for its guard that will get a please explain if the train leaves before the timetabled time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I used to regularly use a service which had dwell time at 2 stations for 2-3 minutes at each station. On 2-3 occasions the train departed early however there were other occasions when the driver informed the conductor (once via the PA) to check the departure time. I think the guard is in charge, but the driver acts as an extra back up as they also have a copy of the schedule.

Something which I have seen is station staff despatching trains early (on non set down only services) so I assume the platform staff over ride the guard and driver in this instance

Ive had a dispatcher try and dispatch me early a few minutes . My instructions are not to acknowledge the tip or accept it prior to departure time and communicate that it is not time yet with the dispatcher . As far as I am concerned I am responsible for the time that train leaves the station.So unless I am notified by control that I am to depart somewhere early the dispatcher wont override me .

 

[Flamingo]

My record is 7 early on the last train at an unmanned station (I was using the previous nights diagram). I got a call from from control that could be summarised as "You pillock" and waited for quite a while at the next platform. Nobody (including me) seemed to think it was anything to do with the driver.

 

[Minilad]

Thats if the guard and drivers job cards show the same departure time of course. Not unknown for them to differ. Especially at weekends

 

[muz379]

No id never blame a driver for taking two early , they have their own job to be concentrating on up front . But I would never complain if one tried to stop the train departing really early

Thats if the guard and drivers job cards show the same departure time of course. Not unknown for them to differ. Especially at weekends

Ive had occasions when the schedule cards have had the same headcode on but different calling patterns .

In that situation I rang control and confirmed where they wanted the train to stop then told the driver where control wanted the train to stop .

 

[bnm]

And the potential passenger in these situations?

What time should they turn up for their train as advertised in timetables?

Is 3 minutes too late? 5? 7?

The scenario I referred to in the OP actually happened. Passenger was walking toward the platform, at an unstaffed station with a less than hourly service, 3 minutes before the advertised departure time, only to see the train depart. There were independent witnesses to the early departure as well. Unfortunately this station doesn't have a timing point so there's no way to retrospectively check the departure time.

I appreciate this isn't a safety issue, in this case the station is mid block and has no starting signal, but shouldn't the guard and driver work together to ensure an on-time departure?

What's the response internally when a complaint comes in from a passenger that you departed early. I don't mean the response to the passenger, they'll get their platitudes and maybe some RTVs. Is their any comeback for the staff involved?

Just to make it clear, I'm not having a dig at rail staff, and I'm not trying to dress this up as a safety issue, I know it isn't. Just asking in the spirit of curiosity. I know if I arrive at the station with 3 minutes to go before departure I'm cutting it fine. But I'd still be p***** off if after arriving with that little time to spare I see my train pulling out.

 

[170401]

When I went through my guards training I was told that timekeeping was the drivers responsibility and that when I gave 2 on the buzzer all I was telling him was that station duties were complete and the train was ready to depart. my experience, however, was somewhat different and on the only occasion I've departed early I was asked to explain rather than the driver.

Incidentally, drivers at certain Scottish depots under a certain manager refuse point blank to leave a station before the WTT time where their is differential between the public timetable. Does anyone else experience this?

 

[Delta558]

Yes, our schedule cards have the working timetable but our drivers' only have the public one. As far as I'm concerned, I'll work to the WTT but if it's a schedule where I know we're likely to hit delays I may err to the public timetable at the start. That allows us to be right time with the WTT after that busy station where we're expected to get about 100 people and their luggage through four doors in less than a minute!

Timing with us is definitely the guard's responsibility. The only time I've been questioned by a driver was in my first week of work by one of the 'characters' (now retired) - "listen, lad, I'm not one to tell you your job but we're not off here for another five minutes. I'll go if you want me to but I thought I'd better check". I knew he would have, as well - he was looking out for me as a 'newbie' back then and it was appreciated.

 

[Welshman]

Just out of interest, timing was always considered the guard's responsibility in the days of yore when the railway company supplied pocket watches for their staff.
For it was the guard who was supplied with the watch, not the driver.

 

[Gemz91]

I'm sure I was once told that if a train left so many minutes early (think it was 3, but may be wrong), it was considered a fail to call? Am I right thinking this?

 

[Antman]

I used to regularly use a service which had dwell time at 2 stations for 2-3 minutes at each station. On 2-3 occasions the train departed early however there were other occasions when the driver informed the conductor (once via the PA) to check the departure time. I think the guard is in charge, but the driver acts as an extra back up as they also have a copy of the schedule.

Something which I have seen is station staff despatching trains early (on non set down only services) so I assume the platform staff over ride the guard and driver in this instance

Is there any possible justification for a train leaving early?

As a passenger I'd be fuming if I missed a train as a result!

 

[SPADTrap]

I'm sure I was once told that if a train left so many minutes early (think it was 3, but may be wrong), it was considered a fail to call? Am I right thinking this?

I would be surprised if that's the case!

 

[LowLevel]

It's quite true - if a train departs early it's logged as a failure to call in the stats which I believe means the TOC are penalised as if the whole train was cancelled for reasons within it's control, as the train indeed didn't call at or after it's booked time.

It's the guard who cops it, the driver operates the train under the direction of the guard.

 

[SPADTrap]

It's quite true - if a train departs early it's logged as a failure to call in the stats which I believe means the TOC are penalised as if the whole train was cancelled for reasons within it's control, as the train indeed didn't call at or after it's booked time.

It's the guard who cops it, the driver operates the train under the direction of the guard.

I'll have to remember to check my diagram at every stop twice on our DOO service then!!

 

[TDK]

Driver does what the guard tells them, unless there is a big red light in front of them. I wouldn't expect them to query me if I tell them to go.

I certainly would if you gave the ready to start early and 99% of guards would be grateful if a driver contacted them and said we a 4 minutes early do you still want to go! And to be fair a guard does not tell a driver to go the guard only give the ready to start signal to inform the driver that station duties are complete
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No id never blame a driver for taking two early , they have their own job to be concentrating on up front . But I would never complain if one tried to stop the train departing really early



Ive had occasions when the schedule cards have had the same headcode on but different calling patterns .

In that situation I rang control and confirmed where they wanted the train to stop then told the driver where control wanted the train to stop .

You are one of the 99% then
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure I was once told that if a train left so many minutes early (think it was 3, but may be wrong), it was considered a fail to call? Am I right thinking this?

No you are wrong as the driver has stopped at the station
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's quite true - if a train departs early it's logged as a failure to call in the stats which I believe means the TOC are penalised as if the whole train was cancelled for reasons within it's control, as the train indeed didn't call at or after it's booked time.

It's the guard who cops it, the driver operates the train under the direction of the guard.

Depends on what you mean - I have always been told that a fail to call is a driver forgetting to stop and this is a disciplinary for the driver maybe different departments have different descriptions

 

[Tomnick]

A 'fail to call' as recorded in TRUST (and therefore also in the performance measures) presumably - no reflection on the driver personally, as it could be a decision by Control to skip the stop in response to disruption, for example.

 

[TDK]

A 'fail to call' as recorded in TRUST (and therefore also in the performance measures) presumably - no reflection on the driver personally, as it could be a decision by Control to skip the stop in response to disruption, for example.

Thanks for that Tomnick, I don't do trust so wouldn't know, same terminology different meaning

 

[muz379]

And the potential passenger in these situations?

What time should they turn up for their train as advertised in timetables?

Is 3 minutes too late? 5? 7?

The scenario I referred to in the OP actually happened. Passenger was walking toward the platform, at an unstaffed station with a less than hourly service, 3 minutes before the advertised departure time, only to see the train depart. There were independent witnesses to the early departure as well. Unfortunately this station doesn't have a timing point so there's no way to retrospectively check the departure time.

I appreciate this isn't a safety issue, in this case the station is mid block and has no starting signal, but shouldn't the guard and driver work together to ensure an on-time departure?

What's the response internally when a complaint comes in from a passenger that you departed early. I don't mean the response to the passenger, they'll get their platitudes and maybe some RTVs. Is their any comeback for the staff involved?

Just to make it clear, I'm not having a dig at rail staff, and I'm not trying to dress this up as a safety issue, I know it isn't. Just asking in the spirit of curiosity. I know if I arrive at the station with 3 minutes to go before departure I'm cutting it fine. But I'd still be p***** off if after arriving with that little time to spare I see my train pulling out.

As a potential passenger I know it would be incredibly annoying .

But we all make mistakes at work , it could be that there is a temporary timetable change or something and the Guard has not scrutinized his docket fully and so has missed the extra dwell time or something .

The response from the company as to what would happen to the driver and guard , well at my TOC the Guard will have a please explain waiting for him at the signing on point next time he arrives at work . And then depending on how often he has done it before it might lead to disciplinary action . If it is a one off incident then he will merely get a quiet word in the ear and reminded to check his time .

What do you think the comeback for the member of staff should be ?

I certainly would if you gave the ready to start early and 99% of guards would be grateful if a driver contacted them and said we a 4 minutes early do you still want to go! And to be fair a guard does not tell a driver to go the guard only give the ready to start signal to inform the driver that station duties are complete

This is the way I see it , I am grateful if a driver points out me trying to dispatch the train early . but if we leave early then I will fully accept all responsibility for it .

 

[ANorthernGuard]

When you cut away all the cr*p It only works

When we work as a TEAM


Enough really said

 

[455driver]

When you cut away all the cr*p It only works

When we work as a TEAM


Enough really said

The guard keeps a look out to make sure the driver doesnt fu um mess up and the driver makes sure the guard doesnt mess up, team work is the only way it works. Luckily I have never had the guard give me the tip on a red, I have had the guard offer to buy me a posh coffee after giving me the tip on a few occasions but they were never at a red, honest!
Nothing else to add to the statement above made by ANG which sums it up perfectly!

 

[deltic1989]

I was always led to understand that the Guard was in charge of the train, and the Driver was in charge of the engine.
This may be a very outdated assessment of the roles however.
I never have figured out how this works on DMU's and EMU's, as I also understand that some old hands when saying 'engine' are actually referring to the locomotive, and not it's power unit.

 

[Tom B]

I recall a bus driver saying "There are a thousand excuses for being late, but none at all for being early!".

If I missed my train because it ran early I'd be somewhat miffed, and would hope that the TOC would honour a refund if the journey was therefore delayed significantly. Fine as a one off - if it regularly happens then obviously something isn't right.

Everybody makes mistakes and it would be unfair to seriously reprimand a member of staff for slipping up and reading the wrong schedule, or having his watch set wrong, or perhaps just cocking up for reasons unknown - a quiet chat and a "don't do it again" would suffice. Of course, if this member of staff has a record as long as your right arm...

 

[455driver]

I recall a bus driver saying "There are a thousand excuses for being late, but none at all for being early!".

Home time,
Dinner time,
Need the loo,
Fed up and need a new job!
I am actually the one due 10 minutes ago running late and not the one due in 5 minutes running early.

There are 5 for you!

 

[bnm]

Home time,
Dinner time,
Need the loo,
Fed up and need a new job!
I am actually the one due 10 minutes ago running late and not the one due in 5 minutes running early.

There are 5 for you!

1,2 & 4 aren't excusable. 4 may well lead to having to find a new job if given when asked to 'please explain'! 3 is just about excusable. 5 isn't really about running early.

The main bus operator in my area was, a few years ago, heavily fined by the Traffic Commissioner for numerous incidences of running early. Some drivers were dismissed as well. In fact they have been fined in 2011, 2007 and 2005 for poor timekeeping, including early running. Probably due for another fine soon on that record!

 

[ExRes]

I think it's always been well known that Drivers and Guards are equal at work, perhaps Drivers are just that little bit more equal though

 

[Silv1983]

There's no real benefit to trying to rush or departing early. You end up sat at a red signal further on because you're out of course - especially at busy junctions.
If I get 2 on the buzzer up to a minute early I just go. If it's any more I will just wait and if someone can't get on then that's down to the guard. Unfortunately there's no buzzer code for "Check your watch pal and release the doors again".