Driverless Trains

[NSEFAN]

So how will the computer distinguish between track workers, trespassers and animals on the line? How will it cope with trains on the opposite line? How will it cope with people or animals within the boundary but not actually on the line? How will it cope with degraded working? What about level crossings where a driver can instinctively sense someone is about to cross or nudge onto the crossing?

A driver is only as good as his experience and training, but a computer is only as good as the person that programmed it.

It would work in the same way that driverless cars identify different objects now. Pattern recognition is a hard problem but it's clearly not impossible since our brains already do it. It also involves predicting where objects will be, rather than just where they are, which is again not impossible. Although humans are naturally very good at this, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that there will be a time when machines are better at it. That said, it would still make sense to have functionality available for trains to be driven manually in times of emergency and equipment failure, etc.

 

[TheKnightWho]

So how will the computer distinguish between track workers, trespassers and animals on the line? How will it cope with trains on the opposite line? How will it cope with people or animals within the boundary but not actually on the line? How will it cope with degraded working? What about level crossings where a driver can instinctively sense someone is about to cross or nudge onto the crossing?

A driver is only as good as his experience and training, but a computer is only as good as the person that programmed it.

I have literally addressed these points in another thread. I think this is the 4th time I've said this now.

 

[Deerfold]

This whole conversation on here reminds me of the US attempts at trying to get a pen working in space, spending gods knows how much, and the Russians just using a tried and tested pencil.

Shame it's an urban myth, isn't it.

Pencils can be quite dangerous in space - if the point cracks off it doesn't just fall to the floor as on Earth. It seems NASA spent $1200 in 1967 buying 400 pens that can be used in space (that someone else had spent $1m
developing).

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

 

[Clip]

So how will the computer distinguish between track workers, trespassers and animals on the line? How will it cope with trains on the opposite line? How will it cope with people or animals within the boundary but not actually on the line? How will it cope with degraded working? What about level crossings where a driver can instinctively sense someone is about to cross or nudge onto the crossing?

A driver is only as good as his experience and training, but a computer is only as good as the person that programmed it.

Some good points however

Track workers - this could be programmed in so that the train knows the area they are working and should there be a TSR then adjust accordingly and it will still be up to the lookout to notify workers

Trespassers and animals - dealt the same way they are now - you either hit them or slow down - trackside along with on board equipment could recognise this and slow the train down

Trains on opposite line - this is daft as the train will know when another is going to pass it so will allow for it


Boundry but not line side would sue the same stuff as mentioned earlier and slow the train down and alert control as to why same with degraded working

Level Crossings all go to full barrier and if someone feels the need to nudge or indeed cross then unlucky. At least with this then the driver doesnt go through the sheer trauma of knowing he killed someone. Own fault. no sympathy for me.


Its years away but for anyone to instantly dismiss it by various and many scenarios is being silly. Theres always an answer and yes they are only as good as what humans tell them to do, just as the human is only as good as their reactions that their mind tells them

 

[GB]

Its years away but for anyone to instantly dismiss it by various and many scenarios is being silly. Theres always an answer and yes they are only as good as what humans tell them to do, just as the human is only as good as their reactions that their mind tells them

I haven't instantly dismissed anything. But as the technology doesn't exist in a neat little package and is unproven in the environment we are talking about, I am skeptical it will work in a heavy rail, open world situation.

 

[NSEFAN]

I haven't instantly dismissed anything. But as the technology doesn't exist in a neat little package and is unproven in the environment we are talking about, I am skeptical it will work in a heavy rail, open world situation.

It doesn't exist YET, but since the basic blocks do exist is it not reasonable to suggest that it might one day happen?

 

[Legzr1]

It doesn't exist YET, but since the basic blocks do exist is it not reasonable to suggest that it might one day happen?

Indeed.

And one day my great, great grandchildren will be nearing retirement...

 

[TheKnightWho]

Indeed.

And one day my great, great grandchildren will be nearing retirement...

Well, ideas have to start somewhere...

 

[Bletchleyite]

For those concerned regarding jobs, at a more abstract level I'd be interested to know how many people are in employment in the UK vs. the population now against say 60 years ago when IT automation was almost non-existent.

Yes, unemployment is up, but that doesn't tell the whole story. For instance, 60 years ago most families had only one breadwinner, now it's more commonly two. So has IT actually brought *more* jobs, just there are proportionally more people wanting them?

If so there is maybe no need to worry *too* much.

Neil

 

[Clip]

Indeed.

And one day my great, great grandchildren will be nearing retirement...

I bet people said that when the railways were first being built but then found out building them gathered pace rather rapidly

 

[Legzr1]

Well, ideas have to start somewhere...

Yes, even those that won't work anytime this century

 

[Jamesb1974]

Theknightwho,

Now I'm confused.

I think I asked you back on the Route knowledge thread whether you had a professional interest in automating the role of driver. I think you declined to respond.

I asked you again on this thread and you told me it was a healthy interest.

Now you claim;

and I'm getting sick of having my opinion belittled "for being a student" (one who actually works with these things, you know)

and

No, but I'm a student who has significant experience with automated systems and a familiarity with the problems involved.

and that you

I dislike people

a) implying I have a vested interest.

You really aren't making things particularly clear. On the one hand its a healthy interest. On the other you have significant experience with automated systems and work with them.

So, for the third time of asking. Do you have a professional interest in automating trains?

 

[Legzr1]

Ah, a vested interest putting bias on comments claiming to be neutral you mean?

I know about as much about automated systems and their development as some posters on here know about what can and does go wrong on the average TIII - not to worry, I'm sure there's an app that can sort it.


Soon...

 

[TheKnightWho]

Theknightwho,

Now I'm confused.

I think I asked you back on the Route knowledge thread whether you had a professional interest in automating the role of driver. I think you declined to respond.

I asked you again on this thread and you told me it was a healthy interest.

Now you claim;



and



and that you



You really aren't making things particularly clear. On the one hand its a healthy interest. On the other you have significant experience with automated systems and work with them.

So, for the third time of asking. Do you have a professional interest in automating trains?

Well that's a loaded post if I've ever seen one before.

No, I do not have a professional interest in automatical b*oody trains. There?

And I get the distinct impression that if I did, you'd just use it as an excuse to dismiss anything and everything I've said, which is why I refused to comment. Talk about bias...

 

[najaB]

Oh FFS, do you actually know anything about the aviation industry.

ZERO take offs are automatic. Absolutely none. From a little Cessna trainer, through to Eurofighter Typhoon and the A380, the pilot flying takes off.

That's not because the technology can't do it, it's because of the basic rule that takeoff's are optional, but landings are mandatory. Convention requires that a human makes the decision to take off. I agree that it should stay that way as the technology isn't able (yet) to determine when something doesn't feel right.

Having said that, the decision to abort over V1 was the cause of the Katilla crash in Luxembourg despite the aircraft actually being totally safe to fly.

Landings, probably about 10% of airliner landings are automatic to some degree.

Most landings are hand flown, it's something the pilots enjoy doing.

I'd agree with you for Western airlines, Asian airlines tend to make a higher percentage of automated landings - that was listed as a contributory factor in the Asiana Airlines crash at SFO - apparently the crew hadn't performed many manual landings and the glideslope was out of service, which forced them to attempt to hand fly the landing.

Taxiing is done by the pilot, pushback is the only standard tug procedure.

Ironic that an airliner can do a full CAT 3C auto-landing but would be stuck out on the runway because the pilots can't see to taxi to the gate.

To bring it back to driverless trains - it's a similar picture: there's no technical reason that they can't happen, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Well that's a loaded post if I've ever seen one before.

No, I do not have a professional interest in automatical b*oody trains. There?

And I get the distinct impression that if I did, you'd just use it as an excuse to dismiss anything and everything I've said, which is why I refused to comment. Talk about bias...

Thank you for the reply.

Would I use it as an excuse to dismiss anything and everything you've said?

Clearly yes, as there would have been a massive conflict of interest.

But as you've cleared it up in such an adult manner, I will take your word that you don't.