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Drivers pay increases

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SPADTrap

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I had this discussion with a friend the other other day, who works for the emergency services. He can go on a blue light run after 13+ hours on duty, yet I can't work more than 12. Difference is, the *worst* he could do was hit a coach and kill (unlikely?) 50 or so people. Potentially, we could have 2 trains collide and looking at (again unlikely) upwards of 1500 people killed or seriously hurt. Plus, higher closing speeds on the railway, with sometimes many passengers standing and luggage and bikes possibly being thrown around

The fact that they can do a 13+ hour day and then respond blue lights only says to me that their industry needs some regulating and they (and others) need protecting!

Us not working more than 12 is sensible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I see it's now turned into bus drivers verses train drivers.Ha ha

Oh it will, train drivers vs nurses was the last one I saw in the metro, clever that eh! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Whilst I fully appreciate the pay that I'm on and am grateful I have this opportunity, I also find it rather tiring whenever train drivers pay comes up in conversations or in the media. It's the same thing over and over, "nurses, police and firefighters don't get paid that much". Just because people feel that they are underpaid for their jobs, doesn't mean that we are overpaid for our jobs. We are lucky to have strong unions that happily negotiate on our behalves for better pay and conditions (which are forever changing). Yes, that's NEGOTIATE, not hold the country to ransom.

If they wanted to raise their wages, all they have to do is use their right to negotiate through their union. Is it our fault that they don't? Nope.

There's too much "I want everything for giving nothing" going around. Why are people so apathetic to bettering themselves? I've done my fair share of low paid dreary jobs and wasn't happy. I didn't sit around moaning "people earn more, so unfair, they don't deserve it". I got off my butt and found something better.

If you don't like your job, don't whinge at others, go out there and find something that will make you happy and cover your bills. Don't have the right qualifications? Join up to night classes in a local college. Only you yourself can change your path, no point waiting for someone else to do it for you, as it won't happen.

My depot is rather new and a large percentage are drivers off the street. People who came from many different professions, backgrounds and countries. So many background stories but one thing in common. They weren't happy with what they were doing so they looked and found this job.

Exactly how I feel! So very well put. Too much time is spent comparing jobs that cannot be compared! Instead of doing something about it its easier to attack those who have more! Ignorance and nothing else.
 
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otomous

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Ah, so it's that time again is it? Open season on Driver's pay. Here we go again.

Some of the posters on here should remember that in BR days the basic driver salary was low but it had allowances eg DOO, night hours etc. The total pay increase has not gone up as dramatically as is always suggested.

And you know what, you couldn't give it away then because that headline figure was poor and all that was known was that the hours were dreadful. Far better to work 9-5 in a cushy warm office.

Well I came off the street from a cushy warm office to be a driver, and one of the reasons I did it was because I knew it was now a properly paid job, and that AFTER training (during which time I dropped over a third in pay) I would be properly rewarded.

I had no real idea what the job entailed and unlike many on here, I kept an open mind. I have been continually surprised by what I'm expected to shoulder. I am of the opinion that though it is well paid, every penny is earned.

Comparison with other jobs is pointless. It is pretty much unique. What we have in common with pilots and bus drivers is that we move people. It ends there.

Comparisons with nurses or firemen are pointless. When you compare apples and pears, they are DIFFERENT. If they are badly paid, it does not follow that train drivers are over paid.

Amongst those who criticise us, I can understand ignorance. As I say, I knew nothing except it involved shifts and moving people. But sadly there seems to be envy, snobbery - the old British disease - how dare a working class job earn good money, and for reasons unknown, some people seem to want a race to the bottom. Let's deskill and pay everyone so little that the fourth biggest economy in the world needs food banks.

I think most of my colleagues have covered WHY we get paid what we do, but I'll add my fourpence'worth:

Training - around a year, on a reduced salary, can't take leave, can't really be sick, learn and be tested on rules, traction, routes. With continual assessment during your entire career. And keep the knowledge updated because things keep changing and you just have to learn it and apply it, there's no spoon feeding.

Rules, Traction, Routes - putting them in a list makes it seem less than it is. Rules. I think sometimes we forget the reality of what we do - moving live people inside enormous metal hulks. A wrong direction movement looks straightforward enough on paper, but then you have to do it. And KNOW it. Don't care that you learned it at the school 5y ago and have never done it. Now you have to get on with it. Go in the wrong direction towards where trains usually come from. It's nerve wracking. Traction. Here's a brand new fleet of trains, we'll give you a handout or maybe a day or two training, after all, they're all the same aren't they? Can you sort this faulty door quick please, the procedure you only saw on a slide? There's four trains held up behind you. Routes. Every one is different. How many signals between stations? Three or four aspect? Is it uphill or downhill? Three junctions and three different speeds. This station can hold 9 coaches on the up and 10 on the down, don't get it the wrong way round will you? Don't forget the red round the corner even though you've had a lengthy station stop beforehand with punters asking why you're late. Foggy today? Never mind, we still expect you to stop in the right place from 80mph when you can't see what's in front of you. Oh, we rebuilt London Bridge last week - it's practically a new railway, you have remembered ALL of it already haven't you?

Hours - start at 3.30 today and 08.00 tomorrow. Then two days off. Just as you've got used to sleeping normally again, on at 4.40. Yeah we know you were spare at 6.00 but we've had someone go sick. And next day, start at 10.30. Four day weeks that become seven days with Sundays and about a third of the recommended time that your body clock needs to go from early to late between the shifts.

Lifestyle - irregular meals, sleep, can't socialise normally, can't even go to your friend's wedding cos we've got no-one spare. Make sure you eat and drink properly, even though we'll schedule your only break 2 hours into a 9.5 hour shift, and won't give you enough time to go to the toilet. Or a toilet! Keep yourself fit, cos if you don't pass the medical, you could lose your job. What d'you mean you don't want to go to the gym when you got home at 02.30? Yeah we know that shift work raises BP and makes it hard to keep weight down but that's your problem.

Mishaps - Don't do any of a growing number of things that we designate, or will designate, to be safety of the line incidents, some of which you didn't realise were dangerous. It's your job to concentrate the entire time. Don't care that you're tired. Or that we use different stop car marks at every platform to confuse you and hide reds behind bridges. Hit a tree? Hopefully it doesn't come through the windscreen and behead you. Make sure you get the trains stopped though. Someone jumped in front of you? Aw, shame, when you coming back to work though?

Responsibility - ready to deal with it when you've got ten cars fully loaded and someone decides to let themselves out on the fast line with a live rail humming away because they smelt dust on a heating element and then everyone follows them? Or ready to defend yourself when one of alleges you shut the doors on them because they ignored the rule about closing doors? Or accuses you of killing their children who thought it would be funny to get drunk and run along your train and you didn't see it when they fell in the gap? Or not able to defend yourself when one of them spits at you or vents their spleen at you? And if they decide to have a **** next to your cab window, well there's no toilet here is there, you're not a person, you're just a driver. Summon the staff to help, oh hang on there are none, you're on your own in the middle of nowhere.

Pressure - 140 perfect stops today please. Keep the passengers informed - although we know you can't use your phone to get information. Report any poor railhead conditions. And now tell us why you're late even though all you ever know is that you've got cautionary signals. We'll download the train to find out if you really slid through two sections and make you sweat in the meantime - but don't let that affect your concentration or sleep will you?

Prospects - assuming you survive all the above, fine. If not, welcome to being middle aged and jobless with skills that have only one use. You could become a DI, or a guard (if there are any left), or a driver manager (if we haven't re-organised them out of a job) - but actually that's only within this industry. It's golden handcuffs to some extent.

More than fourpence, but when my back is up...I fully expect to have to defend my well deserved pay again before the year is out...but let's also mention...it's the going rate for the job. Just like all jobs have a going rate. If you want the job, apply for it like me. I've been lucky enough to get the job. But I could lose it like that. And if you're not as lucky as me, don't say that we should get paid less, consider all that's above.
 
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ainsworth74

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Ah, so it's that time again is it? Open season on Driver's pay. Here we go again.

Err most people seem to be supportive or at least open to being persuaded so I'm not sure what you mean by this?
 

SPADTrap

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Err most people seem to be supportive or at least open to being persuaded so I'm not sure what you mean by this?

Supportive of what? Open to being persuaded about what? A tad perplexed as to why you take issue with that statement?
 
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21C101

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Whether or not drivers pay is deserved, and I don't particulary begrudge them their pay, lets be honest their current pay only partly to do with their responsibility or difficulty of job;

its because of the long training periods (making them difficult to replace quickly or with siginificant cost) combined with almost universal union membership and commendable solidarity/outrageous social pressure on everyone to conform with union dictat (delete as appropriate depending on your point of view) making them difficult to take on.

Otherwise people like bus drivers and signallers, or guards for that matter would be paid far nearer drivers pay rates.
 

Jamesb1974

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Whether or not drivers pay is deserved, and I don't particulary begrudge them their pay, lets be honest their current pay only partly to do with their responsibility or difficulty of job;

its because of the long training periods (making them difficult to replace quickly or with siginificant cost) combined with almost universal union membership and commendable solidarity/outrageous social pressure on everyone to conform with union dictat (delete as appropriate depending on your point of view) making them difficult to take on.

I partially agree with this post.

Long training periods (making them difficult to replace quickly or with siginificant cost) Most definitely a factor. A lot of companies issue new starters with a learning contract, which basically ties them into that company for a set period to a) discourage poaching of trained staff by other operators (weren't Virgin considered particularly bad for his kind of behavior at one time?) and b) set a kind of loyalty scheme to that particular employee and discourage them from sloping off to other operators. Part of that learning contract is to lay out the approximate training costs per individual and, if situation a) or b) arises, try to recover the costs from the individual breaching the contract. I think that currently runs at around the £50k mark per new driver. (It could even be higher).

combined with almost universal union membership and commendable solidarity/outrageous social pressure on everyone to conform with union dictat (delete as appropriate depending on your point of view) making them difficult to take on.

Slightly confused by that one. Are you implying that being part of a union would make a driver difficult to employ elsewhere? I don't believe that for one moment. Speaking personally, there has never been any pressure on me (outrageous or not) to join ASLEF. It was my personal choice that I joined, purely because I want that safety net there for if/when things go pear shaped. I would rather pay 20 years of union subs and never need union assistance than not pay and be up a certain creek without a paddle when the brown stuff hits the fan.

I had a talk from a Union rep who explained why it would be beneficial to join, but there was never any badgering or pressure from anyone to do so. There is a lot of guff talked about Union membership. For some it is a way of life and they end up being more a union man than they are a driver. This is not unusual. I have seen the same activities in my previous career, with people spending more time on staff organisation work than the actual work they are paid to do. For a lot, it means a natty diary to mark your shifts in, some back up for when it goes wrong and a nice badge every 5 years of union membership. Some people read the Union digest from cover to cover when it drops on the doormat, while a lot bin it. Some people choose to move towards union activism and away from driving, while some people choose to be happy to be a member but not take part in political or union activities. There is certainly no pressure at my depot to do anything more than I am happy to do with regards to my union membership.

I have worked in other industries and services outside of the railway where it was an offence almost punishable by death, NOT to be a member of the union or staff organisation. Not so on the railway (from my own personal experience). There does seem to be a mix in the driving grade. A lot of ASLEF men, some RMT and some who are neither.

But going back to pay, I think the issue that gets glossed over or ignored totally, is the legislation and procedure that goes on behind the scenes. Contrary to what some believe, you cannot just rock up with an interest in railways and be in the seat within a few weeks.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/724/pdfs/uksi_20100724_en.pdf

Now I don't expect anyone to read it all (unless you are suffering from incurable insomnia), but it does go a long way to pointing out why the pay of drivers is what it is. The document is primarily about the issue of licensing drivers, but it all slots into the same bigger jigsaw. (Page 21 onwards explains a lot, including why route knowledge is so important).

The ORR and above them, the European Railway Commission don't want any Tom, Dick or Harry driving trains. They want professional people. Professionalising an industry raises the pay level, so you cannot expect the governing bodies to expect professionalism and then pay peanuts.

When you read it, it starts to make sense. And it makes even more sense as to why trying to compare train drivers to other professions is fruitless.
 
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otomous

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Whether or not drivers pay is deserved, and I don't particulary begrudge them their pay, lets be honest their current pay only partly to do with their responsibility or difficulty of job;

its because of the long training periods (making them difficult to replace quickly or with siginificant cost) combined with almost universal union membership and commendable solidarity/outrageous social pressure on everyone to conform with union dictat (delete as appropriate depending on your point of view) making them difficult to take on.

Otherwise people like bus drivers and signallers, or guards for that matter would be paid far nearer drivers pay rates.

And it's posts like this that get my back up!

Clearly I bow to your superior knowledge on the nature of my job. I like to think I might have outlined some of the responsibilities and difficulties of the job in my previous post but clearly I'm singing in the wind.

Training is one of the factors resulting in the going rate for the job. It's market forces; long period of training required equals good pay because no one wants to lose the asset of an expensively trained employee. Unskilled or low skilled job with minimal training required equals low pay because they by their nature, are easy to replace. The training is what it is. It isn't extended by militant unions. If the TOCs could reduce that period, don't you think they would?

As for union membership, the unions represent us and negotiate our pay. They are recognised as such by our employers. If we don't join, we don't get any say in pay negotiations. Bit silly not to join really. Furthermore when there is a high chance of losing your job, your liberty or your life through your work, you need to be defended by a body that can bring resources to bear that an individual cannot.

We are not under "outrageous social pressure" to conform with union dictat. We work to the railway rule book and our TOC's professional driving policy. The union may ask us not to put ourselves in a position where we run counter to the above - and they would not defend us if we did. This is sensible protection.

As for guards getting paid as much as drivers if they had stronger unions, you may have heard of the RMT...
 

21C101

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We are not under "outrageous social pressure" to conform with union dictat.

Talk about taking what I said out of context. What I said was:

commendable solidarity/outrageous social pressure on everyone to conform with union dictat (delete as appropriate depending on your point of view)

Try getting your colleagues to support industrial action over poor treatment of a colleague if you work in the banking, retail or teaching professions.

The flip side of that is that if you personally didn't support industrial action and worked through it in those professions it wouldn't make much difference to relations with your colleagues. Cross picket lines and work through an official strike of your union if your a driver and I doubt it would be so unnoticed by your colleagues.

And I wouldn't say the RMT are strong, just militant. ASLEF seem rather more careful about choosing their battles but pretty tough if crossed.
 
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Jamesb1974

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Talk about taking what I said out of context. What I said was:



Try getting your colleagues to support industrial action over poor treatment of a colleague if you work in the banking, retail or teaching professions.

The flip side of that is that if you personally didn't support industrial action and worked through it in those professions it wouldn't make much difference to relations with your colleagues. Cross picket lines and work through an official strike of your union if your a driver and I doubt it would be so unnoticed by your colleagues.

And I wouldn't say the RMT are strong, just militant. ASLEF seem rather more careful about choosing their battles but pretty tough if crossed.

Being considered a scab for crossing a picket line is hardly unique to train driving! The FBU had quite a lot to say about scab labour in their dispute. And when it comes to teaching, you have about 12 different unions to choose from, some more militant than others! If you are of the mind to want to strike and consider crossing a picket line an unforgivable sin, you wouldn't choose one of the 12 that espouses appeasement and non striking!
 
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ANorthernGuard

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Traincrew in General have a lot of responsibility but myself being a Guard people just see myself as a "Ticketman". They don't see the fact I know about 3/4's of the route knowledge and rules that Drivers do. they don't see the fact that if (god forbid) there is an accident that it is usually the driver who is injured or killed and its the Guard that takes control but thats another issue. A lot of the reason the gap is considerably large between Guards and drivers is simple. percentage pay rises across the board. 4% to a guard is considerably less that 4% for a driver combine that with productivity payments etc. the gap gets bigger each year. When I started there was only a few thousand difference now 12/13 years later the gap is 16k. Regarding the Unions ASLE&F are there just for drivers and in a lot of ways they hold more power than the RMT as the RMT has a lot of other grades to consider as well.
 

21C101

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Being considered a scab for crossing a picket line is hardly unique to train driving!

It pretty well is for a private sector "professional" job paying £40k+, and is pretty rare in most fields these days.

And I'm not necessarily saying its a bad thing that they stand together either.
 
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SPADTrap

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Whether or not drivers pay is deserved, and I don't particulary begrudge them their pay, lets be honest their current pay only partly to do with their responsibility or difficulty of job;

its because of the long training periods (making them difficult to replace quickly or with siginificant cost) combined with almost universal union membership and commendable solidarity/outrageous social pressure on everyone to conform with union dictat (delete as appropriate depending on your point of view) making them difficult to take on.

Otherwise people like bus drivers and signallers, or guards for that matter would be paid far nearer drivers pay rates.

What do you suppose a driver learns during that long training period? Wouldn't have anything to do with responsibility and lots of information and skills culminating a rather difficult time would it? I'd be interested to hear about when you did it or what experience you speak from :)
 
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21C101

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What do you suppose a driver learns during that long training period? Wouldn't have anything to do with responsibility and lots of information and skills culminating a rather difficult time would it? I'd be interested to hear about when you did it or what experience you speak from :)

Look, I'm not arguing that Drivers don't deserve their pay, I'm arguing that there are lots of other jobs that are just as responsible as drivers but don't get paid nearly as much.

It therefore follows that drivers are paid what they are - not because of their responsibilities, which are just as onerous in many other jobs with far less pay - but because of their difficulty to replace without long time/cost implications and their collective unwillingness to let themselves be ****ed about by management.
 

Jamesb1974

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It pretty well is for a "professional" job paying £40k+, and is pretty rare in most fields these days.

Being a professional and being a member of a union are perfectly acceptable and not as rare as you would think. Some unions are unions, but call themselves associations. They are less prone to industrial action than others, but are still unions nonetheless.

The British Medical Association is a trade union.
The British Dental Association is a trade union.
The Criminal Bar Association is a union (and they took strike action for the first time EVER in 2014).

I could go on. There are plenty of unions out there that support professionals. Whether they are more or less inclined to strike and, therefore class a person as a scab/blackleg/strikebreaker for crossing the picket line is down to that particular profession and its historical origins. I'm pretty sure the a Barrister crossing the first ever Criminal Bar Association strike last year, would have been labelled with one of the above terms by his/her colleagues (probably under their breath) but at the same time you would hardly see hoardes of Barristers tearing it up in a Miner's strike style dispute over scab labour.

(Although personally I would love to see that as a spectator sport :D)


And I'm not necessarily saying its a bad thing that they stand together either.

It most certainly is not a bad thing to stand together. You are correct there. Having worked in a career where the staff organisation was totally useless and completely unwilling to tackle even the most basic of disputes (ie a***hole supervisors removing catering equipment to stop staff taking meal breaks back at the mess room), standing together in a powerful union is most definitely a plus point. It doesn't mark me out as some rabid trade unionist who wants to inflict socialism on the western world though. It just marks me out as someone who sees the benefit in having assistance from people who can fight my corner when (if) it comes to employer/employee disputes.
 
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SPADTrap

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Look, I'm not arguing that Drivers don't deserve their pay, I'm arguing that there are lots of other jobs that are just as responsible as drivers but don't get paid nearly as much.

It therefore follows that drivers are paid what they are - not because of their responsibilities, which are just as onerous in many other jobs with far less pay - but because of their difficulty to replace without long time/cost implications and their collective unwillingness to let themselves be ****ed about by management.

Fair cop. Something tells me becoming a paramedic ain't no walk in the park though. Nor a firefighter. Nor any of the ignorant comparisons made generally (not aimed at yourself)

Shame other good jobs see their staff treated in such a way.
 

21C101

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Fair cop. Something tells me becoming a paramedic ain't no walk in the park though. Nor a firefighter. Nor any of the ignorant comparisons made generally (not aimed at yourself)

Shame other good jobs see their staff treated in such a way.

I think its a lot to do with weak/incompetent/more interested in political grandstanding unions and staff unwillingness to stand together.

For example I really can't understand how teachers & their unions tolerate scroats who repeatedly assualt teachers then get a slap on the wrist and are let back in the school (even when they are expelled they are often let back in on appeal).

If they and their union were any good then the teachers would quite reasonably "refuse to work" with such a pupil on health and safety grounds unless security guards to restrain said pupil if necessary were in place.
 
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Jamesb1974

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I think its a lot to do with weak/incompetent/more interested in political grandstanding unions and staff unwillingness to stand together.

For example I really can't understand how teachers & their unions tolerate scroats who repeatedly assualt teachers then get a slap on the wrist and are let back in the school (even when they are expelled they are often let back in on appeal).

If they and their union were any good then the teachers would quite reasonably "refuse to work" with such a pupil on health and safety grounds unless security guards to restrain said pupil if necessary were in place.

I don't think it's a question of toleration, more of a question of misguided loyalties. You see it all the time in certain professions, especially public sector ones.

Rather than address the fundamental issues that cause the problem in the first place, there is a culture of 'keeping the wheel on'. In its most basic form, working past the end of your shift because the following shift is short of people. After a period of time, that kind of culture becomes the accepted norm and the more it goes on, the less inclined people are to challenge it. It just becomes "what we've always done". The more it goes on, the more things fall into that sphere. It starts with staying an extra hour, which then becomes two, then three. Then it moves to reducing staffing for certain activities, then substandard equipment, then no equipment. You challenge it, you get told "we are keeping the wheel on/its what we've always done".

Instead of tackling the root cause, the sticking plaster approach applies and so the problem rumbles on and on. So in your teacher/violent pupil example, someone somewhere will have made the decision that the violent pupil has a right to education and that it is far easier to "do what we've always done" and 'keep the wheel on', than employ expensive security guards or expel the little turd full stop.

So, back to the drivers union, ASLEF. I for one am glad they've got the balls to challenge this kind of stuff!
 

455driver

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Err most people seem to be supportive or at least open to being persuaded so I'm not sure what you mean by this?

Read some of the posts after yours! ;) :lol:
I see its the usual 'know-nothing but think they know everything' idiots again! :roll:

Drivers pay went up under BR because of productivity improvements such as flexible rostering etc but of course I am wrong and numb nuts is right because it all took place after privytisation! :roll:

Come on people, dont feed the troll, he will only be back for more!
It doesnt matter what anyone says, he has got his incorrect, blinkered view and isnt going to change it any time soon so save your fingers.
 
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muz379

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One thing not mentioned is that, provided you are willing to move, there is a career progression for drivers. The TOCs that train new driver tend to run harder diagrams to work, i.e. a stopper requires more 'work' than an express, but pay them less.
So, you train with Northern, drive a crappy pacer for a bit stopping at 50 stations a day, then move to Virgin, get paid more (because they can afford to pay more because they don't have to pay for training, in a better cab environment, with 10 stops a day.
This is one of the reasons that pay has gone up for drivers over other rail staff, the shortness of supply of qualified drivers for TOCs that aren't willing to train versus the retention rises for the drivers of TOCs that do train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's a something to to think about.
In BR days, drivers were paid far less. Has the job got proportionally harder compared to, for example, that of station staff who haven't seen the same rate of pay increase?
For example, the average driver now has to retain far less traction knowledge than in the past.
I would argue that the reason that the reason drivers get paid as much as they do now is almost entirely due to a combination of privatisation and a long expensive training time.
As to whether they weren't paid enough before, or they are paid too much now, or somewhere in between, I don't really know
Its not necessarily as simple as that . I know loads of drivers who drive "crappy pacers" who have no interest or desire to work for virgin,TPE,any other TOC that pays more .

There is more of a difference between Northern and Virgin drivers T's&C's than just the money . But so often people get blinkered and caught up by the fact that virgin drivers earn about £10k more basic a year . However there Terms and conditions are completely different . Arguably if Northern drivers sold some of their T's&C's they could get near to what Virgin drivers are on .
 

W230

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Rather than address the fundamental issues that cause the problem in the first place, there is a culture of 'keeping the wheel on'. In its most basic form, working past the end of your shift because the following shift is short of people. After a period of time, that kind of culture becomes the accepted norm and the more it goes on, the less inclined people are to challenge it. It just becomes "what we've always done". The more it goes on, the more things fall into that sphere. It starts with staying an extra hour, which then becomes two, then three. Then it moves to reducing staffing for certain activities, then substandard equipment, then no equipment. You challenge it, you get told "we are keeping the wheel on/its what we've always done".
My last job down to a T. And why I left to become a driver... :lol:

It's very interesting your point about "staying the extra hours". My mum always used to whinge at my dad for staying late at work - she had fixed hours and when she was done she was done. They could never see why the other worked the way they did!

OOI 21C101, may I ask what you do? This is not to attack your work/pay/background but merely as an interest from your point on view. I imagine you work in a white collar world (finance/banking maybe?) where doing the extra hour (or three) is expected and to not do so would be frowned upon, especially if one wants to progress... I'm probably wrong though!

Certainly in my previous employment (public sector) doing the extra "gratis" was expected. But as time went by, more and more was expected, just as Jamesb1974 highlights. It wasn't the helping out I begrudged it was that whatever you did it was never enough - could you just do a bit more please... Now, speaking to my previous colleagues they are miserable as the chipping away of their work/life balance continues in the same vein as when I still worked there.
 

notadriver

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It's possible that 21C101 is something to do with the bus industry as there is a Flickr stream account in that name with hundreds of bus photographs.
 

21C101

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It's possible that 21C101 is something to do with the bus industry as there is a Flickr stream account in that name with hundreds of bus photographs.

No thats not me. I'm an engineer. Best fit in railwayese is S&T.

Mostly white collar but with added boots hard hat and dirt at times.
 

muz379

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Rather than address the fundamental issues that cause the problem in the first place, there is a culture of 'keeping the wheel on'. In its most basic form, working past the end of your shift because the following shift is short of people. After a period of time, that kind of culture becomes the accepted norm and the more it goes on, the less inclined people are to challenge it. It just becomes "what we've always done". The more it goes on, the more things fall into that sphere. It starts with staying an extra hour, which then becomes two, then three. Then it moves to reducing staffing for certain activities, then substandard equipment, then no equipment. You challenge it, you get told "we are keeping the wheel on/its what we've always done".

Instead of tackling the root cause, the sticking plaster approach applies and so the problem rumbles on and on. So in your teacher/violent pupil example, someone somewhere will have made the decision that the violent pupil has a right to education and that it is far easier to "do what we've always done" and 'keep the wheel on', than employ expensive security guards or expel the little turd full stop.

Indeed this was the reason I left retail . The only way to gain promotion from the junior management role I was in was by being "more productive" but because the staff you had working for you didn't change and didn't care about your chances of promotion all that really meant was doing more work yourself running yourself into the ground often after hours . And cutting corners .

A prime example was working a shift where you as thee manager opened up . The company guidance was that it took 2 hrs in the morning to do all the pre opening tasks - This meant if your store opened at 08:30 you had a manager and another member of staff starting work at 06:30 . The norm was for the manager opening up to arrive anytime from 05:00 to 05:30 to allow at least an extra hour . This completely went against company guidance about not being at the store alone. However you had little choice because if your area manager turned up at the store at 08:30 to do an inspection they dont care about you not having enough time because the 15 other stores they oversee can open up with everything done so there clearly must be something wrong with you as a manager
 

Arglwydd Golau

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I think its a lot to do with weak/incompetent/more interested in political grandstanding unions and staff unwillingness to stand together.

For example I really can't understand how teachers & their unions tolerate scroats who repeatedly assualt teachers then get a slap on the wrist and are let back in the school (even when they are expelled they are often let back in on appeal).

If they and their union were any good then the teachers would quite reasonably "refuse to work" with such a pupil on health and safety grounds unless security guards to restrain said pupil if necessary were in place.

.....but it's not as simple as that! I was regularly assaulted in my career in Nursing (at least when I was a practising nurse). Using your criteria I should have refused to nurse them! Same applies to teachers!
 

21C101

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.....but it's not as simple as that! I was regularly assaulted in my career in Nursing (at least when I was a practising nurse). Using your criteria I should have refused to nurse them! Same applies to teachers!

Unless they were in danger of death or permanent disablement by you not nursing them, I reckon if Nurses were in RMT or ASLEF that is exactly what you would have been advised to do until sufficient security staff/police were on hand to restrain them and rightly so.

That probably comes over as a bit hyperbolic but, I'm guessing that most of the people who assault nurses are idiots who have drunk too much and fallen over cutting themselves open. Personally I would have no problem if they caused trouble in the hospital with sending them to the back of the queue without any painkillers. People mentally ill or with dementia is a bit different but whatever the reason, there ought to be security guards etc. on hand to restrain troublemakers if it is anywhere near a regular occurence or the nurses don't have a safe working environment which the hospitals have a duty to provide their employees under HASAW act. and if nurses started refusing to work on safety grounds in large numbers I suspect they would be provided very quickly, ditto teachers.
 
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ANorthernGuard

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No way does a guard have to know 3/4 of drivers route knowledge possibly 10% at most

So we don't need to know

Speed Limits
Junctions
Level crossings
Signals at Junctions and on Platforms
Line Names
up/down
Signal Boxes
Signalling Systems on each route
and a few other things that i am sure i have forgotten

10% ? I don't think so
 

bystander

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So we don't need to know

Speed Limits
Junctions
Level crossings
Signals at Junctions and on Platforms
Line Names
up/down
Signal Boxes
Signalling Systems on each route
and a few other things that i am sure i have forgotten

10% ? I don't think so

No, I'd say that those basic building blocks of driver's route knowledge probably constitute between 5% and 10% of the effective route knowledge that I require to safely work a route, quite apart from all the many hundreds of "Driver" sections of the rule book. So you're quite right - 10% probably isn't the right figure
 
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muz379

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Unless they were in danger of death or permanent disablement by you not nursing them, I reckon if Nurses were in RMT or ASLEF that is exactly what you would have been advised to do until sufficient security staff/police were on hand to restrain them and rightly so.

That probably comes over as a bit hyperbolic but, I'm guessing that most of the people who assault nurses are idiots who have drunk too much and fallen over cutting themselves open. Personally I would have no problem if they caused trouble in the hospital with sending them to the back of the queue without any painkillers. People mentally ill or with dementia is a bit different but whatever the reason, there ought to be security guards etc. on hand to restrain troublemakers if it is anywhere near a regular occurence or the nurses don't have a safe working environment which the hospitals have a duty to provide their employees under HASAW act. and if nurses started refusing to work on safety grounds in large numbers I suspect they would be provided very quickly, ditto teachers.

exactly right doctors and nurse in emergency departments do deserve the right to be protected at work .

I was in A&E just last week and saw security staff around the whole time I was there and this was a wednesday evening . Id expect on a friday and saturday night for more to be available but I dont know because the only way id be going to A&E on a friday or saturday night is on a stretched in an ambulance through no choice of my own .
 
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