Drivers pay increases

[TDK]

So we don't need to know

Speed Limits
Junctions
Level crossings
Signals at Junctions and on Platforms
Line Names
up/down
Signal Boxes
Signalling Systems on each route
and a few other things that i am sure i have forgotten

10% ? I don't think so

Speed limits? All you need is the maximum line speed and not all the speeds.
Junctions - possibly if there are any on the route
Level crossings - yes
Signals at Stations - yes
Signals at junctions - no
Line names - yes
Signal boxes - yes
Signalling systems on each route - no

Now for drivers route knowledge :_

Stations
Line names
Gradients
Junction indicators
Shunt moves
All line speeds
Junction names
Level crossing names
Level crossing types
Tunnel names
Points of access
All signalling types and what they mean including shunts
Speeds at AHBC-X
Braking points/areas for stations
Braking points areas for speeds
Viaducts
Platform lengths
Stopping points on platforms
Location of facing and trailing points
Where the train can be crossed over from one line to another.
Signal types (auto, controlled, Semi, Distant etc.)
Non AWS locations
Signals that are on the off side
Signals that are high risk
Signals that are multi-SPAD
Signals poorly sighted
Unusually short signal sections
Where the signalling goes from 3 - 4 aspect and visa versa
Location and amount of signals associated with AB signal boxes.
Signal boxes that can be locked out of use.
And you need to know all this in the dark and fog, sorry no way does a guard need to know 75% of drivers' route knowledge

 

[Monty]

We do need to know what signalling system is in use on any given route though. Afterall there would be very little point trying to use track circuit operating clips if the line is controlled using absolute block signalling or axle counters. Things such as offside signals (at stations anyway) and viaduct are also things we need to know and are tested on.

 

[Bellbell]

Speed limits? All you need is the maximum line speed and not all the speeds.
Junctions - possibly if there are any on the route
Level crossings - yes
Signals at Stations - yes
Signals at junctions - no
Line names - yes
Signal boxes - yes
Signalling systems on each route - no

Now for drivers route knowledge :_

Stations
Line names
Gradients
Junction indicators
Shunt moves
All line speeds
Junction names
Level crossing names
Level crossing types
Tunnel names
Points of access
All signalling types and what they mean including shunts
Speeds at AHBC-X
Braking points/areas for stations
Braking points areas for speeds
Viaducts
Platform lengths
Stopping points on platforms
Location of facing and trailing points
Where the train can be crossed over from one line to another.
Signal types (auto, controlled, Semi, Distant etc.)
Non AWS locations
Signals that are on the off side
Signals that are high risk
Signals that are multi-SPAD
Signals poorly sighted
Unusually short signal sections
Where the signalling goes from 3 - 4 aspect and visa versa
Location and amount of signals associated with AB signal boxes.
Signal boxes that can be locked out of use.
And you need to know all this in the dark and fog, sorry no way does a guard need to know 75% of drivers' route knowledge

From your list of things guards don't need to know, I had to learn (as a guard):

Junction names
Level crossing names
Level crossing types
Tunnel names
Signalling systems
Viaducts
Platform lengths
Theatre boxes
Areas of bidirectional working


Of course we don't need to know everything you need to know, as you don't need to know many aspects of what we do. And as you've ably demonstrated, you probably don't always know what you don't know about our jobs, as we probably don't always know what we don't know about yours.

More generally, I echo those who say that comparisons with other jobs such as nurses/firefighters etc don't prove anything other than that those occupations are woefully underpaid. It shouldn't be the race to the bottom that so many seem to want.

Everything I want to say has been said before but the responsibility, shifts, lack of social life, implications for health and longevity, niche skills which are a tie to the industry etc are all reasons why drivers are not overpaid.

I came off the street (into a guard's role rather than driving) from a corporate job which I doubt anyway would argue was overpaid but was essentially paper pushing. I weighed up the pros of railway work (not taking work home with you, either literally or figuratively; paid overtime, pension, etc) vs the cons (antisocial hours, health issues, lack of transferable skills etc) and decided that at the salary offered, the trade off was worth it. At a different salary level the trade off may not have been worth it. The same will no doubt go through the minds of current and prospective drivers.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Unless they were in danger of death or permanent disablement by you not nursing them, I reckon if Nurses were in RMT or ASLEF that is exactly what you would have been advised to do until sufficient security staff/police were on hand to restrain them and rightly so.

That probably comes over as a bit hyperbolic but, I'm guessing that most of the people who assault nurses are idiots who have drunk too much and fallen over cutting themselves open. Personally I would have no problem if they caused trouble in the hospital with sending them to the back of the queue without any painkillers. People mentally ill or with dementia is a bit different but whatever the reason, there ought to be security guards etc. on hand to restrain troublemakers if it is anywhere near a regular occurence or the nurses don't have a safe working environment which the hospitals have a duty to provide their employees under HASAW act. and if nurses started refusing to work on safety grounds in large numbers I suspect they would be provided very quickly, ditto teachers.

No, it wasn't A&E where I worked, don't really want to get into a discussion about it on this thread but Security staff and/or police were certainly not the answer. Many nurses are subjected to violence or threats of violence, but to refuse to help, support, care and treat such people is not the answer and certainly would go against the reasons why I, and many others, went into Nursing. Anyway, as BellBell has just stated, comparisons between jobs should not be made, thankfully there are still people who wish to nurse....however, it is interesting to note that whilst Driver's pay has gone up in the 'market', for those working in Health and Social care at shop floor level, pay and conditions have deteriorated.

 

[notadriver]

Is there not the possiblity of getting a pay increase by climbing the payscales?

 

[Greenback]

Is there not the possiblity of getting a pay increase by climbing the payscales?

Payscales, as they are seen in other jobs, is not a feature of the railway especially in regard to drivers. There tends to be a trainee rate, and a full rate, and that's it.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Speed limits? All you need is the maximum line speed and not all the speeds.
Junctions - possibly if there are any on the route
Level crossings - yes
Signals at Stations - yes
Signals at junctions - no
Line names - yes
Signal boxes - yes
Signalling systems on each route - no

Now for drivers route knowledge :_

Stations
Line names
Gradients
Junction indicators
Shunt moves
All line speeds
Junction names
Level crossing names
Level crossing types
Tunnel names
Points of access
All signalling types and what they mean including shunts
Speeds at AHBC-X
Braking points/areas for stations
Braking points areas for speeds
Viaducts
Platform lengths
Stopping points on platforms
Location of facing and trailing points
Where the train can be crossed over from one line to another.
Signal types (auto, controlled, Semi, Distant etc.)
Non AWS locations
Signals that are on the off side
Signals that are high risk
Signals that are multi-SPAD
Signals poorly sighted
Unusually short signal sections
Where the signalling goes from 3 - 4 aspect and visa versa
Location and amount of signals associated with AB signal boxes.
Signal boxes that can be locked out of use.
And you need to know all this in the dark and fog, sorry no way does a guard need to know 75% of drivers' route knowledge

this where you are very wide of the mark TDK

Out of your own list the average Northern Guard will know
Stations
Line names
Junction indicators
Shunt moves
All line speeds
Junction names
Level crossing names
Level crossing types
Tunnel names
Viaducts
Platform lengths
Stopping points on platforms
Location of facing and trailing points
Where the train can be crossed over from one line to another.
Signal types (auto, controlled, Semi, Distant etc.)
Signals poorly sighted

The only major things we dont need to know are multi spad signals etc etc

and we know the majority of braking points just by experience (approaches to stations mostly obviously). I bet almost any experienced guard has avoided a failure to call because the driver hasn't braked in the usual area. Yes Drivers Route Knowledge is thorough but Guards are not as far behind as you think. (maybe not 75% but certainly 65%+ a revised conclusion)

So.... what were you saying?

 

[SPADTrap]

I was expecting drivers vs just about every job but not drivers vs guards! Stick together guys!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I was expecting drivers vs just about every job but not drivers vs guards! Stick together guys!

we do (mostly) lol just think drivers sometimes forget how much we do actually know, its usually a lot more than people think.

 

[455driver]

I do love the way a thread having a dig at us over-paid button pushers turns into a slanging match between drivers and guards, all rather sad really, fight the common enema* people!


* not a spelling mistake, they are a load of sh#t!

Edit-
SPADTrap beat me too it.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Speed limits? All you need is the maximum line speed and not all the speeds.
Junctions - possibly if there are any on the route
Level crossings - yes
Signals at Stations - yes
Signals at junctions - no
Line names - yes
Signal boxes - yes
Signalling systems on each route - no

Now for drivers route knowledge :_

Stations
Line names
Gradients
Junction indicators
Shunt moves
All line speeds
Junction names
Level crossing names
Level crossing types
Tunnel names
Points of access
All signalling types and what they mean including shunts
Speeds at AHBC-X
Braking points/areas for stations
Braking points areas for speeds
Viaducts
Platform lengths
Stopping points on platforms
Location of facing and trailing points
Where the train can be crossed over from one line to another.
Signal types (auto, controlled, Semi, Distant etc.)
Non AWS locations
Signals that are on the off side
Signals that are high risk
Signals that are multi-SPAD
Signals poorly sighted
Unusually short signal sections
Where the signalling goes from 3 - 4 aspect and visa versa
Location and amount of signals associated with AB signal boxes.
Signal boxes that can be locked out of use.
And you need to know all this in the dark and fog, sorry no way does a guard need to know 75% of drivers' route knowledge

Agree with that. Our guards are required to be "familiar" with the route. Nothing like the level of detail needed by a driver. Think six weeks for a guard to gain their "route knowledge"; nearer six months for a qualified driver transferring across.

Drivers don't need to know tickets, or sort out passenger issues. Two totally different roles, often requiring different attributes.

 

[GB]

this where you are very wide of the mark TDK

Out of your own list the average Northern Guard will know
Stations
Line names
Junction indicators
Shunt moves
All line speeds
Junction names
Level crossing names
Level crossing types
Tunnel names
Viaducts
Platform lengths
Stopping points on platforms
Location of facing and trailing points
Where the train can be crossed over from one line to another.
Signal types (auto, controlled, Semi, Distant etc.)
Signals poorly sighted

The only major things we dont need to know are multi spad signals etc etc

and we know the majority of braking points just by experience (approaches to stations mostly obviously). I bet almost any experienced guard has avoided a failure to call because the driver hasn't braked in the usual area. Yes Drivers Route Knowledge is thorough but Guards are not as far behind as you think. (maybe not 75% but certainly 65%+ a revised conclusion)

So.... what were you saying?

In that list, is there a difference between need to know to be able to do your job, need to know because you get assessed on it in the same vein as drivers or is it just stuff you have picked up over the years through your own job?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

In that list, is there a difference between need to know to be able to do your job, need to know because you get assessed on it in the same vein as drivers or is it just stuff you have picked up over the years through your own job?

When we go on compass Route and rules questions come up and you can be asked about anything in that list.

 

[ComUtoR]

Stations - Agree (for dispatch purposes)
Line names
Junction indicators - Why ? (you never see them from the back cab)
Shunt moves - Why ?
All line speeds
Junction names
Level crossing names
Level crossing types
Tunnel names
Viaducts
Platform lengths - Agree
Stopping points on platforms - Agree
Location of facing and trailing points
Where the train can be crossed over from one line to another.
Signal types (auto, controlled, Semi, Distant etc.) - Why ?
Signals poorly sighted - Why ? (unless they are starters you don't needs them)

Some I agree on and others I can see that in an emergency you may need them but a few I have pointed out I really can't see why.

Without throwing any stones. I am genuinely interested in why they are route knowledge for a Guard. I can say that ours do not have such a high degree of route knowledge. Is it TOC specific ?

Cheers in advance.

 

[notadriver]

I get the impression that guards up north or guards that have the responsibility of both opening and closing the doors seem to have more operational knowledge than those who don't.

 

[313103]

Right lets get this straight in the privatisation era the Guard and the Driver are not required to know as much as they did under British Rail.

The Guards knowledge has been eroded out of the rule book at more or less every rule book change since the first introduction of Driver Only Operation trains, so we are more or less at this impasse where they are required to know next to nothing. Rules testing as always been there for Guards, for Drivers it is a fairly modern one I think introduced under the traincrew concept (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

A lot of what drivers had to know has also been reduced (albeit not the same level as a Guard). Drivers were required to know the inner most workings of a diesel locomotive (and possibly electric locos, I never did these) and had to explain this in explicit detail to the Traction Inspector on passing out, if you didn't know you was failed.

The drivers course work whilst in detail today compared to a Guards is also much easier to do then in the days of British Rail, it has to be to get Drivers of the streets in New Year and have them fully qualified in 8 to 9 months. Drivers previously were Drivers Assistants and picked a lot of knowledge during this period and also did a fair amount of driving as well.

I get sick and tired of this I am better then you malarkey purely and simply because one is a driver and one is a guard, they are both important but differing roles and often need each other in difficult situations. I found working with a driver from BR days or early traincrew concept days much easier, there appeared never to be this hierarchy that we see so prevalent nowadays.

 

[notadriver]

Right lets get this straight in the privatisation era the Guard and the Driver are not required to know as much as they did under British Rail.

The Guards knowledge has been eroded out of the rule book at more or less every rule book change since the first introduction of Driver Only Operation trains, so we are more or less at this impasse where they are required to know next to nothing. Rules testing as always been there for Guards, for Drivers it is a fairly modern one I think introduced under the traincrew concept (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

A lot of what drivers had to know has also been reduced (albeit not the same level as a Guard). Drivers were required to know the inner most workings of a diesel locomotive (and possibly electric locos, I never did these) and had to explain this in explicit detail to the Traction Inspector on passing out, if you didn't know you was failed.

The drivers course work whilst in detail today compared to a Guards is also much easier to do then in the days of British Rail, it has to be to get Drivers of the streets in New Year and have them fully qualified in 8 to 9 months. Drivers previously were Drivers Assistants and picked a lot of knowledge during this period and also did a fair amount of driving as well.

I get sick and tired of this I am better then you malarkey purely and simply because one is a driver and one is a guard, they are both important but differing roles and often need each other in difficult situations. I found working with a driver from BR days or early traincrew concept days much easier, there appeared never to be this hierarchy that we see so prevalent nowadays.

Back in BR days did not guards and drivers have separate messrooms ? Drivers could wander into that guards but not vice-versa allegedly.

 

[21C101]

Back in BR days did not guards and drivers have separate messrooms ? Drivers could wander into that guards but not vice-versa allegedly.

I recall reading there was on occasion similar friction between drivers and firemen in steam days, not least after the 1955 two week drivers (and firemen) strike when the union settled after an offer that was very generous to drivers and very ungenerous to Firemen.

 

[Legzr1]

Right lets get this straight in the privatisation era the Guard and the Driver are not required to know as much as they did under British Rail.

The Guards knowledge has been eroded out of the rule book at more or less every rule book change since the first introduction of Driver Only Operation trains, so we are more or less at this impasse where they are required to know next to nothing. Rules testing as always been there for Guards, for Drivers it is a fairly modern one I think introduced under the traincrew concept (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

A lot of what drivers had to know has also been reduced (albeit not the same level as a Guard). Drivers were required to know the inner most workings of a diesel locomotive (and possibly electric locos, I never did these) and had to explain this in explicit detail to the Traction Inspector on passing out, if you didn't know you was failed.

The drivers course work whilst in detail today compared to a Guards is also much easier to do then in the days of British Rail, it has to be to get Drivers of the streets in New Year and have them fully qualified in 8 to 9 months. Drivers previously were Drivers Assistants and picked a lot of knowledge during this period and also did a fair amount of driving as well.

I get sick and tired of this I am better then you malarkey purely and simply because one is a driver and one is a guard, they are both important but differing roles and often need each other in difficult situations. I found working with a driver from BR days or early traincrew concept days much easier, there appeared never to be this hierarchy that we see so prevalent nowadays.

I like your final two paragraphs - I caught the back end of BR days and whilst there were drivers who hated guards, disliked secondmen and would have put an axe through the head of a foreman if they didn't have DOO and mileage to worry about, they were great times - poor wages, excellent T&C'S and the banter!!

However, I worked with drivers who wouldn't get off their arses to turn a point, didn't have a clue how to isolate a wagon with dragging brakes and would wait three hours for a fitter to check coolant and oil levels.

Perhaps it's different in passenger companies but, with freight at least, drivers do FAR more now than in BR days.

I commented earlier in the thread about reading up on DRI agreements in the late 80s and early 90s - this is where the vast majority of the wage and increase in productivity comes from (together with infinitely variable, short-notice turns with minimum rest periods...).
Whether you agree with what happened or not, the facts remain - A freight driver basically does the job of two or three men with terms that would have had drivers in the late 70s passing out in shock.

Sure, the money is good but it's not the end of the story!


I'd wager that a driver with 30 years service starting in, for example 1999, will have just as much knowledge as a similar driver with similar service starting in 1969.

It isn't the fault of a newly qualified driver that some think the rule book has been 'dumbed down'

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I can tell you with my double digit years of experience, that I can just about slaughter any of the newer generation (2002 onwards) of drivers when it comes to traction & route knowledge.

I was trained to deal with & change shoe fuses, cartridge fuses, valves & couplings etc, they're now told that they're not allowed to touch anything below the solebar, that's a fitters job. Me, I just get on with it, once they know that I'm trained to do it!

 

[beavercreek]

I can tell you with my double digit years of experience, that I can just about slaughter any of the newer generation (2002 onwards) of drivers when it comes to traction & route knowledge.

I was trained to deal with & change shoe fuses, cartridge fuses, valves & couplings etc, they're now told that they're not allowed to touch anything below the solebar, that's a fitters job. Me, I just get on with it, once they know that I'm trained to do it!

Times have changed and the recruitment process has changed now from the "days of Black and White".
Could you pass the current driver assessments?

 

[SPADTrap]

I can tell you with my double digit years of experience, that I can just about slaughter any of the newer generation (2002 onwards) of drivers when it comes to traction & route knowledge.

I was trained to deal with & change shoe fuses, cartridge fuses, valves & couplings etc, they're now told that they're not allowed to touch anything below the solebar, that's a fitters job. Me, I just get on with it, once they know that I'm trained to do it!

Not that any would hang around long enough to want to hear it though..!

Are you surprised that you know the job more than someone just out the school?

Drivers vs Drivers now. Ah well.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Some I agree on and others I can see that in an emergency you may need them but a few I have pointed out I really can't see why.

Without throwing any stones. I am genuinely interested in why they are route knowledge for a Guard. I can say that ours do not have such a high degree of route knowledge. Is it TOC specific ?

Cheers in advance.

No idea its what we got taught back in the early 2000's and from what i can gather from newbies route knowledge is even more important now than when i passed out. I don't know if its TOC specific or not. I just know what I have been taught (and what I have picked up over the years)

 

[ComUtoR]

I can understand why some things have been "eroded" over the years and knowledge isn't "like what it used to be"

A lot of what you have posted is surplus to requirement. Even for Drivers I do understand why the new boil in th... Trainees have a lot less knowledge. We Drive in different times and in a more connected age you can access information at the click of a button or a telephone call to the fitters. Less responsibility can be a good thing. Technology is there to make our lives easier and safer.

Personally I want to get to a point where I will never need to leave the cab to "fix" my train and it can all be done remotely via th Mitrac (or equivalent)

 

[2Dogbox]

For all those who moan continually about drivers pay, please do not forget that like any job you can apply for the job yourselves. We are well paid for what we do, but having just got to the stage of passing out after just under a years driver training it is not something that can be learned in 5 minutes. The course was intense and mentally draining, even though most of us had previous rules knowledge from being guards for many years. The rules culminated in an 8 hour exam which was the most demanding thing I have had to do for a long time. Even A-Level exams were nowhere near that draining. We are still expected to know a lot of the traction details and operations and had to complete exams on this too.

As a driver you are monitored continually to via competancy monitoring and data recorder downloads and any mistake or mishap can result in you loosing your job. I might only have 50 or so people at the most on my trains as I am in dogbox land but some of my colleagues in the South East can have hundreds. They are all relying on me to get them where they are going safely. Leaf-fall can be horrendous, as can driving at linespeed in thick fog where you can't see anything in front of you.

I would like to see a lot of the people who moan about pay trying to do the course and then driving and see how you get on.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Times have changed and the recruitment process has changed now from the "days of Black and White".
Could you pass the current driver assessments?

No, probably not, never tried it, don't have to either, although I do get frustrated with the simulators, as I find the touch screen interface too slow, I'm waiting for it to catch me up. :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not that any would hang around long enough to want to hear it though..!

Are you surprised that you know the job more than someone just out the school?

Drivers vs Drivers now. Ah well.

They should be trained to deal with HT systems such as shoe & cartridge fuses and how to change them quickly & safely. I was many years ago & it has stood me in good stead. Route knowledge is key and when I teach it, I teach them to use minimum or no braking to get the correct speed and use power judiciously and how to get just enough to hold your speed exactly where you want it. Rocket science it ain't and a little forward thinking can save time, money and problems later.

 

[ComUtoR]

They should be trained to deal with HT systems such as shoe & cartridge fuses and how to change them quickly & safely. I was many years ago & it has stood me in good stead.

I too was also trained to remove shoe fuses but it is no longer required. This is down to the fact we will NEVER change a fuse again. Spare fuses are also no longer required on prep and neither is the shoe fuse key.

Call the fitter and they will change the fuse. Even they pretty much never change the fuse on the running line. Assistance from the rear/front continue in service. or drive with out it; we have 3 others They know where they are and can identify when they are at fault.

I was also shown how to fit a schrader (spelling ?) hose and couple up to a 400 but that too isn't gonna happen any time soon. Even tightlock to delner requires a fitter with a wheelbarrow and they will be fully trained to fit it. I'd just bang it together, check for brake continuity and Robert's your mothers brother.

It is training and knowledge we don't need anymore so its been removed.
Conversely on a 319 I was taught how to change the fuse in the cupboard (still not a shoe fuse)

Chuck in various safety constraints and you can further understand why some knowledge is removed. Another quick thought is new traction. On a 376 I can press the lift shoes button so knowledge like paddling up is no longer required.

I hope that highlights some of the reasoning behind newer Drivers not having your level of knowledge.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

ll this better than you Malarky still goes on in Leeds Messroom (So I have been told) Where no one must sit at the "Top Link" table or some such strangeness. Even now we have the odd driver that looks down on guards (Until the s*it hits the fan) Then they want to be best mates lol

 

[TDK]

I do love the way a thread having a dig at us over-paid button pushers turns into a slanging match between drivers and guards, all rather sad really, fight the common enema* people!


* not a spelling mistake, they are a load of sh#t!

Edit-
SPADTrap beat me too it.

It's not a slanging match 455 but a response to a guard quoting they need to know 75% of driver's route knowledge which you and I know is an incorrect statement, the post is about drivers' pay and it has diverted once again into an "us and them" situation that to be honest is not how I work! I feel strongly on the importance of route knowledge because this is the most important part of a drivers role except the hiring in of a HIAB crane to carry our wage slip home

 

[ANorthernGuard]

It's not a slanging match 455 but a response to a guard quoting they need to know 75% of driver's route knowledge which you and I know is an incorrect statement, the post is about drivers' pay and it has diverted once again into an "us and them" situation that to be honest is not how I work! I feel strongly on the importance of route knowledge because this is the most important part of a drivers role except the hiring in of a HIAB crane to carry our wage slip home

Maybe 75% was a little way off the mark so I adjusted it to around 65% but this figure does seem to be TOC dependent as well. It certainly wasn't a "dig" at anyone. It was just stating a fact that quite a few drivers seem to think that guards don't actually know much route knowledge which is completely untrue.