Drivers refuse to work overtime ?!

[ainsworth74]

I've deleted a post which caused us to veer off into a very off topic discussion about driverless trains. If members wish to discuss driverless trains (the practicalities or otherwise of them for example) they are welcome to do so on a new thread in an appropriate sub-forum.

 

[plastictaffy]

we can't have the fat cats losing their carton of cream.

Oh dear me, no. The shareholders need their few million quid!!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sunday working conditions we have on the west side are the last thing we will let go. I mean it.

Same at my place. Sundays for us pay time and a half. For years, they've wanted Sundays to be part of the working week, or "committed sundays" like Virgin and probably some others do. However, we are still able to throw our sundays in. Sundays are overtime. Always have been. I do my booked Sundays, and no more. If the job I have is really pants, I'll throw it in. There's always plenty of money grabbing gits that will have the Sundays going begging - even the really crap jobs get covered easily enough.

 

[whoosh]

Ah, fair enough, I generally take the money!

Me too!

 

[Juniper Driver]

I can't say I like the idea of getting on a train with a driver who hasn't had the appropriate amount of rest. I don't want any micro-sleeps through a red signal.

That is interesting and I very rarely work a restday now as the normal shifts are longer and more intense than they ever were apart from the early days of privatisation and the eleven hour shifts.

 

[dk1]

Are we allowed to comment on this subject now?

 

[ExRes]

There's always plenty of money grabbing gits that will have the Sundays going begging - even the really crap jobs get covered easily enough.

Perhaps you are financially in no need of working extra hours, not everyone is so lucky, 'money grabbing gits' is a totally thoughtless comment and fails to take individual circumstances into account

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Perhaps you should live within your means, "cut your cloth" accordingly.

I do. I don't do overtime or rest days, especially as a rest day is worth less than a standard days pay. :roll:

 

[NI 271]

Perhaps you should live within your means, "cut your cloth" accordingly.

I do. I don't do overtime or rest days, especially as a rest day is worth less than a standard days pay. :roll:

Perhaps, as has happened to some of us in the past, our 'means' changed due to circumstances beyond our control? From 2009 to 2013 I had to work almost every hour I could due to my wife developing a medical condition (and not all career-ending conditions fall within insurers' "critical illness" cover - hers didn't) which meant from bringing £300 a week home working part time, she went to never being able to work again (and has only very recently started getting some help from the government). Not everyone is skint purely because they choose to live like rock stars.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Perhaps, as has happened to some of us in the past, our 'means' changed due to circumstances beyond our control? From 2009 to 2013 I had to work almost every hour I could due to my wife developing a medical condition (and not all career-ending conditions fall within insurers' "critical illness" cover - hers didn't) which meant from bringing £300 a week home working part time, she went to never being able to work again (and has only very recently started getting some help from the government). Not everyone is skint purely because they choose to live like rock stars.

Nail, hit, head.

Working overtime is a personal choice. You want it, you work it. No one should be made to feel bad about working or not working o/t.

 

[A-driver]

Nail, hit, head.



Working overtime is a personal choice. You want it, you work it. No one should be made to feel bad about working or not working o/t.

I agree. Although I also do see the argument that anyone who relies on OT to make ends meet needs to recognise they are on very dodgy ground as at any time the OT could stop (if nothing else then by being off sick or having an incident and coming off road). THAT SAID, I do sympathise with the example given and obviously if the OT is up for grabs there is no reason why you shouldn't take advantage of it.

I know a few who get itchy fingers if they don't get enough RDW or extra Sunday's as they get quite nasty about fellow drivers who have 'nicked their RDs' and as a result they will struggle to pay their bills etc that month and I don't agree with that. If you rely on OT you need to accept that from time to time you may have to get by on flat money alone.

I do believe, however, that if there is OT going then no one should feel in anyway bad about working it to line their own pockets. I have known times when OT is on tap at my depot and you can take home an extra £1500 by almost living at work. If you are happy doing that then why feel bad? It could pay for your holiday or redecorating your house, new computer etc.

I don't agree with drivers criticising colleagues for working lots of OT however I do recognise that some are over dependant on it and this can lead to major financial issues if they are unable to continue working that amount of OT.

 

[causton]

I agree. Although I also do see the argument that anyone who relies on OT to make ends meet needs to recognise they are on very dodgy ground as at any time the OT could stop (if nothing else then by being off sick or having an incident and coming off road). THAT SAID, I do sympathise with the example given and obviously if the OT is up for grabs there is no reason why you shouldn't take advantage of it.

I know a few who get itchy fingers if they don't get enough RDW or extra Sunday's as they get quite nasty about fellow drivers who have 'nicked their RDs' and as a result they will struggle to pay their bills etc that month and I don't agree with that. If you rely on OT you need to accept that from time to time you may have to get by on flat money alone.

I do believe, however, that if there is OT going then no one should feel in anyway bad about working it to line their own pockets. I have known times when OT is on tap at my depot and you can take home an extra £1500 by almost living at work. If you are happy doing that then why feel bad? It could pay for your holiday or redecorating your house, new computer etc.

I don't agree with drivers criticising colleagues for working lots of OT however I do recognise that some are over dependant on it and this can lead to major financial issues if they are unable to continue working that amount of OT.

It happens in all grades. Some people moaning they are 'forced' to take overtime several weeks in a row to avoid short staffing some areas, and colleagues swearing about their managers who tried to balance out how many rest day work shifts people were doing to give them out more equally, rather than a few people getting them all! The money is nice, yes, but unless you are guaranteed the work (i.e. for me, Sunday counts as Rest Day Work, but I will get a certain number in the roster booked) it's not good to rely on it too much!

 

[bramling]

It happens in all grades. Some people moaning they are 'forced' to take overtime several weeks in a row to avoid short staffing some areas, and colleagues swearing about their managers who tried to balance out how many rest day work shifts people were doing to give them out more equally, rather than a few people getting them all! The money is nice, yes, but unless you are guaranteed the work (i.e. for me, Sunday counts as Rest Day Work, but I will get a certain number in the roster booked) it's not good to rely on it too much!

Where I work we have a couple of individuals who aggressively chase overtime, and scrutinise sheets to the point of knowing more about who is working what than the people themselves.

It's these sorts of individuals who cause a lot of problems, so you end up with (for example) spare drivers having to be sent home strictly in the same order they booked on just to avoid someone throwing toys out of the pram "he got 2 and a half hours cutaway and I only got 2 and a quarter hours".

I'm glad I don't need or want overtime and therefore don't do it, however I know there are a few who will do it just to stop certain individuals getting it all the time.

 

[tony6499]

Where I work we have a couple of individuals who aggressively chase overtime, and scrutinise sheets to the point of knowing more about who is working what than the people themselves.

It's these sorts of individuals who cause a lot of problems, so you end up with (for example) spare drivers having to be sent home strictly in the same order they booked on just to avoid someone throwing toys out of the pram "he got 2 and a half hours cutaway and I only got 2 and a quarter hours".

I'm glad I don't need or want overtime and therefore don't do it, however I know there are a few who will do it just to stop certain individuals getting it all the time.

I think that is the same at a lot of depots, the other side of the view as a roster clerk was that certain people could be relied on 100% to do anything they were asked to do so it wasn't fair to bypass them to give a rest day work to someone who 99/100 would tell you to poke it as they didn't want to work overtime.

The whole business of rest day working and agreements have always been trouble and maybe one day the staff levels will be such that it is eliminated.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think that is the same at a lot of depots, the other side of the view as a roster clerk was that certain people could be relied on 100% to do anything they were asked to do so it wasn't fair to bypass them to give a rest day work to someone who 99/100 would tell you to poke it as they didn't want to work overtime.

The whole business of rest day working and agreements have always been trouble and maybe one day the staff levels will be such that it is eliminated.

That will never happen my depot is always at least 10% short on Drivers and Guards (Soon to be RPI's if politicians have their way) In over a decade I have not once NOT been marked up for RDW sometime during the month when I am available to do so.

 

[grid56126]

There's always plenty of money grabbing gits

I take it these are the same "gits" who allow you to have time off because you don't fancy doing a slightly more difficult turn.

How pleasant.

 

[Robertj21a]

That will never happen my depot is always at least 10% short on Drivers and Guards (Soon to be RPI's if politicians have their way) In over a decade I have not once NOT been marked up for RDW sometime during the month when I am available to do so.

Difficult to claim that anything will NEVER happen. Change of franchise, or change of funding criteria, or change of things that can't possibly be foreseen at present, might lead to a 100% staffing level.

 

[bramling]

I take it these are the same "gits" who allow you to have time off because you don't fancy doing a slightly more difficult turn.

How pleasant.

Unfortuntely, from my experience these "gits" also tend to be the ones most likely to blow out during such times as summer weekends, half-term weeks, Christmas and Easter holidays, or if there's a big football match on.

Overtime and weekend working, always a poisonous subject in messrooms!

 

[dk1]

I still help out sometimes for those with leave declined but on the whole don't really enjoy & don't need the money so pick & choose what I do over & above. A rather nice place to be I might hasten to add.

 

[grid56126]

People need to understand the reasons why we are where we are with this. If it was more economic for the TOC/FOC (anyone at all who pays overtime on a regular basis) to be fully staffed and not want to make overtime payments, then there would be a lot more companies around aspiring to this goal. The fact that there are not gives you the answer you need.

There are quite simple economics in progress. For every member of staff you employ you take up administrative time in the recruitment process, often these days employing agencies to whittle out the favorites prior to formal interviews. External applicants will take up HR staff time, internal applicants line managers time. And so you are on the books, welcome to your new company and we are now paying you to be non productive for anything from a few weeks to a good few months. Training courses to attend, run by another agency or internal staff. The cost to a TOC employer just to get a person booking on for their first full day of duty for the lowest graded staff is thousands, go up into management and driver grades (signallers are similar) and you don't get much change out of 30 - 40 grand.

A lot of people think Sundays should be part of the working week and RDW eradicated. My roster pattern allows for 2 x 12 hour Sundays every 4 weeks. There are 4 of us on the roster so that is 96 hours every 4 weeks that now needs to be covered by somebody else. Remember I am still doing a 37 hour week, these Sundays are extra, so I can still do my normal job but you need to employ 2 and half more people just to do my grades Sundays. There are six more grades in my office (just my TOC) with identical shift patterns, So you will need to employ an additional 18 members of staff in total to eradicate reliance on overtime.

Now continue to pay their NI, Pensions to sort out and suddenly a few RDWs / Extra Sundays with existing staff appears to help the balance sheets. Other commentators have recently said the staffing costs to a TOC pail into insignificance compared to track access charges. That may be true, but the railways have been privatised for a very long time and I see little evidence of any TOC attempting to staff up to full 7 day a week working with no overtime. There are a few exceptions I know, but LM were led to the situation because the staff were not doing the overtime and they now have a mish mash of staff on old contracts still doing overtime and new staff on 7 day contracts. I am guessing that is a nightmare to roster !

 

[A-driver]

Difficult to claim that anything will NEVER happen. Change of franchise, or change of funding criteria, or change of things that can't possibly be foreseen at present, might lead to a 100% staffing level.

Well let's face it my depot had apparently been a year away to an end of OT and full establishment since the 1970s...yet it still runs on OT. So I'm guess I'm if we are a year away for the past 45years 'never' is a fair claim. 100% staffing level just isn't how railway companies work at some locations-BR or private TOCs.

 

[notadriver]

People need to understand the reasons why we are where we are with this. If it was more economic for the TOC/FOC (anyone at all who pays overtime on a regular basis) to be fully staffed and not want to make overtime payments, then there would be a lot more companies around aspiring to this goal. The fact that there are not gives you the answer you need.

There are quite simple economics in progress. For every member of staff you employ you take up administrative time in the recruitment process, often these days employing agencies to whittle out the favorites prior to formal interviews. External applicants will take up HR staff time, internal applicants line managers time. And so you are on the books, welcome to your new company and we are now paying you to be non productive for anything from a few weeks to a good few months. Training courses to attend, run by another agency or internal staff. The cost to a TOC employer just to get a person booking on for their first full day of duty for the lowest graded staff is thousands, go up into management and driver grades (signallers are similar) and you don't get much change out of 30 - 40 grand.

A lot of people think Sundays should be part of the working week and RDW eradicated. My roster pattern allows for 2 x 12 hour Sundays every 4 weeks. There are 4 of us on the roster so that is 96 hours every 4 weeks that now needs to be covered by somebody else. Remember I am still doing a 37 hour week, these Sundays are extra, so I can still do my normal job but you need to employ 2 and half more people just to do my grades Sundays. There are six more grades in my office (just my TOC) with identical shift patterns, So you will need to employ an additional 18 members of staff in total to eradicate reliance on overtime.

Now continue to pay their NI, Pensions to sort out and suddenly a few RDWs / Extra Sundays with existing staff appears to help the balance sheets. Other commentators have recently said the staffing costs to a TOC pail into insignificance compared to track access charges. That may be true, but the railways have been privatised for a very long time and I see little evidence of any TOC attempting to staff up to full 7 day a week working with no overtime. There are a few exceptions I know, but LM were led to the situation because the staff were not doing the overtime and they now have a mish mash of staff on old contracts still doing overtime and new staff on 7 day contracts. I am guessing that is a nightmare to roster !

In another industry I work in (coach driving) it seems to cost them next to nothing to keep casual staff on their books. They simply call drivers in to work at times of higher demand. Cpc training is the responsibility and cost to the individual and as casual staff there seems to be no need to pay NI, holidays, sick pay etc - all that is the responsibility of the employee. It's a scary thought that this might creep into the rail industry - it has in some places I fear.