Dunblane - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen electrification updates

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thank you!

Those articles are quite sensationalist - specifically when they imply works on specific bridges will take 7 years, which seems very unlikely. They do truly seem to be exaggarating the impact quite a lot.

seeing as Scotrail won't have any BEMUs till 2027 no need to rush it

 

[Davester50]

Must be a slow news day.

I guess you've never read The Courier before?

 

[snowball]

Thanks to Morayshire for obtaining the text of the articles.

I was wondering whether some recent action by Network Rail lies behind the appearance of these articles, but my tentative conclusion is that it doesn't. Everything mentioned in the articles seems to be based on info that's been available for a few months, since the initial applications to councils for a screening opinion, that led to the creation of this thread.

 

[Rick1984]

Some quality arm folding in that article! What's the point in scaremongering over a project that will only benefit the area and Scotland in general?
The media really are the worse!

 

[Waverleystu]

As a native of Dundee I didn’t bother to read the article as it would be so inaccurate anyway! Great news for the area and at last electrification of a mainline that should have been electrified decades ago. I remember an electrification campaign group in the 90’s pushing for the Edinburgh to Aberdeen upgrade. Sad to think that thirty years later two major cities in Scotland (Dundee and Aberdeen) are still waiting for work to begin!

 

[NE_ABZ]

Looking at the list of works needing full planning permission, the real difficult area will be the notorious Do Nothing Tories on the Kincardine & Mearns Area Planning Committee of Aberdeenshire Council. Network Rail will have to appeal many planning refusals to the Planning Inspectors. An example of these councillors is seen at
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...wn-out-by-councillors-amid-plane-crash-fears/ Network Rail might be advised to use an Act of Parliament to get permission rather than wasting money and time on Planning Applications and appeals.

 

[Wynd]

Sir, you cant possibly be bringing the functioning's of local authority, the shire council, into disrepute?!

 

[kkong]

I remember an electrification campaign group in the 90’s pushing for the Edinburgh to Aberdeen upgrade.

Ah yes - CREATE (Campaign for Rail Electrification from Aberdeen to Edinburgh).

Nicol Stephen (later Scottish Lib Dems leader) was the figurehead for a while.

 

[NE_ABZ]

Sir, you cant possibly be bringing the functioning's of local authority, the shire council, into disrepute?!

They don't need my help for that. I was just pointing out the "little ways" of the council to a wider audience. I try and vote these councillors out .......

 

[najaB]

First article

Somewhat disappointing that Dock Street Tunnel needs lowering, given that much of it was rebuilt within the last decade.

 

[Davester50]

Somewhat disappointing that Dock Street Tunnel needs lowering, given that much of it was rebuilt within the last decade.

There wasn't much that much rebuilt. Above Crichton Street to City Quay never saw anything done.

 

[najaB]

There wasn't much that much rebuilt. Above Crichton Street to City Quay never saw anything done.

It's been a while, but ISTR that the whole section along Dock Street as far as the bottom of Commercial Street was rebuilt. Remember that the off-ramp from the Tay Road Bridge used to go in that big loop and the whole thing got redone to realign the roads.

Edit: This image of the work in progress definitely looks like it's further than Crichton Street. https://www.google.com/search?q=doc...Ag&biw=360&bih=524&dpr=3#imgrc=zagYtKLnRVgzoM

 

[Davester50]

It's been a while, but ISTR that the whole section along Dock Street as far as the bottom of Commercial Street was rebuilt. Remember that the off-ramp from the Tay Road Bridge used to go in that big loop and the whole thing got redone to realign the roads.

Edit: This image of the work in progress definitely looks like it's further than Crichton Street. https://www.google.com/search?q=doc...Ag&biw=360&bih=524&dpr=3#imgrc=zagYtKLnRVgzoM

How would any work done only from above would help with Overhead Wire clearances below without opening the lid?

Unlike back in the 1960s when the approach roads were built over the section at Custom House was opened up so you could see in, (Seen below in the photo from Dundee City Archives on Flickr)

Dock Street Tunnel Work in 1968 from Dundee City Archives on Flickr

There was no structural work affecting any clearances done, other than the weak bridge that was at the front of the station ( Seen here) that was rebuilt completely.

 

[najaB]

How would any work done only from above would help with Overhead Wire clearances below without opening the lid?

Again, I may well be misremembering, but ISTR that the whole roof was removed and replaced.

 

[Davester50]

Again, I may well be misremembering

Well your google search you provided earlier didn't show any links to an open tunnel in the last few years, but did for the 1968 scheme, so you very well may be misremembering.

 

[AVK17]

Again, I may well be misremembering, but ISTR that the whole roof was removed and replaced.

I’m afraid you are misremembering. The last lot of work was drainage and track renewals. The roof hasn’t been off since the ‘60s, just as the poster above says. You might be getting confused with the removal and remodelling of overbridge 189-1 which exposed the south portal of the tunnel for a while.

 

[Davester50]

I’m afraid you are misremembering. The last lot of work was drainage and track renewals. The roof hasn’t been off since the ‘60s, just as the poster above says.

Thanks for confirming.

You might be getting confused with the removal and remodelling of overbridge 189-1 which exposed the south portal of the tunnel for a while.

Is that the one just to the north/east of the station that took you round to the old taxi rank at the front of the station?
I remember a lot of work getting done over the festive periods before the new station was built.

 

[Morayshire]

To resurrect the thread once more...

I believe that the first of the bridge works begins next week.

Attached image was posted onto an Angus Roads facebook page and details the proposed works programme for the demolition and replacement of an existing rail overbridge located between Inverkeilor and Cauldcots.

Morayshire

 

[snowball]

To resurrect the thread once more...

I believe that the first of the bridge works begins next week.

Attached image was posted onto an Angus Roads facebook page and details the proposed works programme for the demolition and replacement of an existing rail overbridge located between Inverkeilor and Cauldcots.

Morayshire

Thanks. Absolutely brilliant to see physical work starting on this project.

It appears to be this bridge on a farm access road (one view from the A92 and one from above):

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

Inverkeilor · Arbroath DD11 5RN

Arbroath DD11 5RN

www.google.co.uk

 

[numtot12345]

Just a thought - as the scheme extends on from Dunblane, presumably services to/from Glasgow will the first to run on the overheads. When would the connection with the fife circle be anticipated to happen (whether via tay Bridge or Perth and Newburgh line)?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Just a thought - as the scheme extends on from Dunblane, presumably services to/from Glasgow will the first to run on the overheads. When would the connection with the fife circle be anticipated to happen (whether via tay Bridge or Perth and Newburgh line)?

The plan is to get battery EMUs to allow services to switch from diesel before the wiring is complete. The Fife wires will radiate from Thornton Junction out towards Kirkcaldy, Lochgelly, Ladybank and Leven. I don't know if some wires around Perth and Dundee will be needed to allow BEMUs to charge up for the return journey.

Filling in the gaps between the wired-up sections is less important than enabling BEMU operation, so I wouldn't expect continuous electrification for quite some time.

 

[najaB]

I don't know if some wires around Perth and Dundee will be needed to allow BEMUs to charge up for the return journey.

I believe that is the case - they will wire out from Dundee for some distance, likely as far as Errol and Carnoustie (or Arbroath) I would imagine. The advantage of getting as far as Arbroath is that the Dundee local shuttles could operate in EMU mode all the way. They've already starting putting out publicity that some of the roads into Broughty Ferry will have to close for bridge rebuilding.

The Tay Bridge is an obvious obstacle to wiring to the south.

 

[tbtc]

The Fife wires will radiate from Thornton Junction out towards Kirkcaldy, Lochgelly, Ladybank and Leven

(Not intending to “shoot the messenger”, but…) is there any train for the wires to stop at Ladybank?

I thought it was fairly open countryside from there to the Tay Bridge, seems odd to me not to continue electrification to at least Leuchars (if not Wormit, since presumably there’d be the capacity to switch modes on the move)?

(I can understand Kirkcaldy being a limit due to the tunnel at Kinghorn, for example)

Is this purely a cost thing, or are there obstacles I’ve forgotten about in old age?

 

[najaB]

Is this purely a cost thing, or are there obstacles I’ve forgotten about in old age?

I'd expect that Wormit to Cupar will be fed from Dundee, even if they don't wire the Tay Bridge in this phase.

 

[tbtc]

I'd expect that Wormit to Cupar will be fed from Dundee, even if they don't wire the Tay Bridge in this phase.

Ah, that’s a good point

(And i appreciate that there needs to be some “end point” for the first stage of any project, I’m happy that this is going ahead, it’s just that Ladybank seemed a surprising place to stop given the fairly unchanging geography north of there, but maybe the economics dictate that they are best focusing on the higher frequency south of Ladybank - just seems a shame that Fife is only getting modest improvements after service cuts whilst the line north of a Stirling gets bigger benefits on top of the recent frequency improvements)

 

[snowball]

The approach they seem to be following is to initially wire only the minimum amount to allow battery trains to take over a route (subject presumably to some prior design assumptions concerning off-wires capability). Thus on the Borders line they are only wiring from Tweedbank to the south end of Bowshank tunnel, and from Newcraighall to an arbitrary point north of the City Bypass bridge. Then presumably they move on to do somewhere else.

I'm hoping for at least two events in 2023 that should clarify the proposed sequence of events:

1) the first review of the overall decarbonisation strategy, which in the original document was scheduled for spring 2023.

2) further details on the procurement of "suburban" EMUs and BEMUs.

In possible partial answer to @numtot12345 's question, it was recently reported in the Haymarket-Dalmeny thread that the Forth Bridge is expected to be fully electrified by 2030. It's a reasonable guess that that means continuous electrification of at least Edinburgh-Dundee via Kirkcaldy and the Tay Bridge by that date.

 

[numtot12345]

Thanks all for the responses - very useful.

On another note - seen this article but behind a paywall. Not looking for anyone to post the article contents, however hopefully it's just a slow news day story.

Dundee Minecraft entrepreneur 'stunned' by rail electrification plan

Dundee gaming entrepreneur Chris van der Kuyl has said he is “stunned and amazed” bosses created rail electrification plans without giving communities a

www.thecourier.co.uk

 

[92002]

Thanks all for the responses - very useful.

On another note - seen this article but behind a paywall. Not looking for anyone to post the article contents, however hopefully it's just a slow news day story.

Dundee Minecraft entrepreneur 'stunned' by rail electrification plan

Dundee gaming entrepreneur Chris van der Kuyl has said he is “stunned and amazed” bosses created rail electrification plans without giving communities a

www.thecourier.co.uk

There're no gain for electrification and faster more modern trains without having some pain to provide it.

One of the many .problems is lifting bridges thay can't provide clearances for OHL. In many cases the structures are due for replacement in many cases. So the opportunity will be taken to replace it with a more modern structure suitable for higher axle loads. In other cases the existing structure may be suitable to be lifted and kept in service.

 

[gingertom]

There're no gain for electrification and faster more modern trains without having some pain to provide it.

One of the many .problems is lifting bridges thay can't provide clearances for OHL. In many cases the structures are due for replacement in many cases. So the opportunity will be taken to replace it with a more modern structure suitable for higher axle loads. In other cases the existing structure may be suitable to be lifted and kept in service.

is this Dundee Games Guy seriously suggesting we shouldn't be electrifying unless he personally gives it the ok?

 

[snowball]

Is Dundee's Elon Musk concerned about the same issues as in the second quoted article in #58?