E-scooter & hoverboard ban on GTR

[E27007]

Two articles and data on electric vehicle fires:
One point is the smoke from a battery resembles steam, but the smoke is not steam it is a highly toxic gas discharge

EV fires

EV fire risk

 

[Ediswan]

Two articles and data on electric vehicle fires:
One point is the smoke from a battery resembles steam, but the smoke is not steam it is a highly toxic gas discharge

Most articles stop at saying "highly toxic". This one digs deeper, the main culprit being hydrogen fluoride (HF), which is definitely to be avoided.

Nature: Toxic fluoride gas emissions from lithium-ion battery fires

Lithium-ion battery fires generate intense heat and considerable amounts of gas and smoke. Although the emission of toxic gases can be a larger threat than the heat, the knowledge of such emissions is limited. This paper presents quantitative measurements of heat release and fluoride gas emissions during battery fires for seven different types of commercial lithium-ion batteries. The results have been validated using two independent measurement techniques and show that large amounts of hydrogen fluoride (HF) may be generated, ranging between 20 and 200 mg/Wh of nominal battery energy capacity. In addition, 15–22 mg/Wh of another potentially toxic gas, phosphoryl fluoride (POF3), was measured in some of the fire tests. Gas emissions when using water mist as extinguishing agent were also investigated. Fluoride gas emission can pose a serious toxic threat and the results are crucial findings for risk assessment and management, especially for large Li-ion battery packs.

 

[E27007]

Most articles stop at saying "highly toxic". This one digs deeper, the main culprit being hydrogen fluoride (HF), which is definitely to be avoided.

Nature: Toxic fluoride gas emissions from lithium-ion battery fires

Is the HF the same powerful chemical which readily etches glass?, Imagine the effect of HF gas on your lungs or skin.

 

[43066]

I suppose the issue will only be fully resolved when private E-scooters are or aren't allowed on the public highway in the same way E-bikes are. You know, those other electrically propelled, two wheeled contraptions that are also limited to 15.5 mph

I expect so.

Not to stereotype too much but, looking at some of the scruffs who ride them (the type who often smell strongly of herbal tobacco), I hope the ban stays in place for as long as possible!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expect so.

Not to stereotype too much but, looking at some of the scruffs who ride them (the type who often smell strongly of herbal tobacco), I hope the ban stays in place for as long as possible!

They certainly do at present seem to be chavmobiles, though no doubt that's because most people aren't willing to break the law and risk points on their driving licence (the offence is of driving/riding a non type approved motor vehicle without licence or insurance) and confiscation, but people of the noted demographic are usually not concerned with such things. Were they to become permitted I think the demographic of users will widen, particularly if taking them on peak trains folded becomes allowed, they take up even less space folded than a Brompton.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Is the HF the same powerful chemical which readily etches glass?, Imagine the effect of HF gas on your lungs or skin.

It's a very long time since I studied chemistry but does not Hydrogen Fluoride react with any available water and form Hydrofluoric acid?
The latter is the infamous liquid which is difficult to store because it dissolves almost every known material.

 

[najaB]

It's a very long time since I studied chemistry but does not Hydrogen Fluoride react with any available water and form Hydrofluoric acid?
The latter is the infamous liquid which is difficult to store because it dissolves almost every known material.

That about sums it up, yes.

The white smoke is usually not just HF itself, but a mixture with acid formed from the moisture in the air.

 

[talldave]

CS are a bit of a special case. Fire regs are tighter on sleeper trains because people are asleep so may not notice a fire developing.

However, they did climb down from a ban, they are now permitted but only if the battery has an isolator switch (which does rule out some integrated designs like VanMoofs).

The isolator switch requirement shows ignorance of the actual risk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The isolator switch requirement shows ignorance of the actual risk.

The risk occurs mostly when charging or discharging. If totally switched off, only physical damage would cause issues, the batteries don't generally randomly combust when totally idle. It also mitigates the risk stemming from a short in the bike itself.

 

[talldave]

The risk occurs mostly when charging or discharging. If totally switched off, only physical damage would cause issues, the batteries don't generally randomly combust when totally idle. It also mitigates the risk stemming from a short in the bike itself.

Well it won't be charging and, if it's not moving, unlikely to be discharging at any measurable level.

So we’re into the micro managing of risks by people who don't fully understand them to create rules that will be enforced by people who don't understand what it is they're enforcing.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I expect so.

Not to stereotype too much but, looking at some of the scruffs who ride them (the type who often smell strongly of herbal tobacco), I hope the ban stays in place for as long as possible!

E-bikes are, and always have been road-legal, and are subject to the same rules as pedal cycles, provided that

• The pedals must be in motion for electric assistance to be provided (starting assistance up to 6kph is allowed without pedalling)
• A maximum power output of 250W
• Electric assistance must cut out over 15.5mph (if you can pedal faster than that without assistance, that's fine)

However, you have to be over 14 years old to ride one.

Are electric bikes legal? UK law explained (March 2024 update)

Electric bikes are classified as ‘electrically assisted pedal cycles’, or EAPCs so are perfectly legal to ride as long your ebike meets the DVLA's EAPC rules. The key ones to obey are: The pedals must be in motion for electric assistance to be provided A maximum power output of 250W No electric...

electroheads.com

If they don't meet those requirements, they are classified as mopeds and must be taxed, registered and insured, and the rider must be over 16, have a licence, and wear a crash helmet, and obey the same rules as any other moped.

Note that as an e-scooter has no pedals it cannot qualify as an ebike. An unpowered scooter is a pedestrian-powered vehicle like a perambulator or handcart.

 

[Ediswan]

E-bikes are, and always have been road-legal, and are subject to the same rules as pedal cycles, provided that

• The pedals must be in motion for electric assistance to be provided (starting assistance up to 6kph is allowed without pedalling)
• A maximum power output of 250W
• Electric assistance must cut out over 15.5mph (if you can pedal faster than that without assistance, that's fine

Frequently misquoted. 250W is the maximum continuous rated power allowed. Peak power can be considerably higher.

 

[Wezz]

e-bikes are essentially electric mopeds. Other mopeds aren't allowed on trains

not entirely true, the only e-bikes that are legal are pedal assist, all other types of e-bike are illegal and will be confiscated by police if seen.

 

[Joe Paxton]

not entirely true, the only e-bikes that are legal are pedal assist, all other types of e-bike are illegal and will be confiscated by police if seen.

Theory / reality collision incoming!

 

[jon0844]

not entirely true, the only e-bikes that are legal are pedal assist, all other types of e-bike are illegal and will be confiscated by police if seen.

They really won't. If they were doing that, Deliveroo and other delivery services would be ensuring their riders weren't using them. A recent visit to Cambridge quickly saw how many were zipping around without pedalling, and I wasn't purposely looking for them (rather trying to avoid them).

 

[norbitonflyer]

The only e-bikes that are legal are pedal assist,

Until 1977, a vehicle only qualified as a moped if it had pedal assistance

 

[Meerkat]

If an e-scooter is dangerous on a train I'm not so keen on being on a Eurotunnel shuttle with several large electric SUVs - those ridiculous things must have huge batteries that would create a LOT of heat and toxic smoke

 

[Wezz]

They really won't. If they were doing that, Deliveroo and other delivery services would be ensuring their riders weren't using them. A recent visit to Cambridge quickly saw how many were zipping around without pedalling, and I wasn't purposely looking for them (rather trying to avoid them).

I've seen quite a few get confiscated by BTP, and it's always highly amusing when it happens.

 

[Supercoss]

Is the railway keeping up with technology then? Do major stations and indeed onboard trains Have the necessary fire extinguishers to deal with any issue in the vital minutes before fire brigade arrive or mor3 likely remote locations in middle of knowhere ?
most trains have a Foam fire extinguisher but reading about battery fires some state treat as metal fire, others say treat as flammable liquid, so reaching for a water extinguisher not to good.
this is also an issue with vandalism with traincrew and track staff being involved with a simple train hits bike issue that is far more serious with Lithium -ion battery attached

 

[Wezz]

Is the railway keeping up with technology then? Do major stations and indeed onboard trains Have the necessary fire extinguishers to deal with any issue in the vital minutes before fire brigade arrive or mor3 likely remote locations in middle of knowhere ?
most trains have a Foam fire extinguisher but reading about battery fires some state treat as metal fire, others say treat as flammable liquid, so reaching for a water extinguisher not to good.
this is also an issue with vandalism with traincrew and track staff being involved with a simple train hits bike issue that is far more serious with Lithium -ion battery attached View attachment 132591

This issue with the batteries is thermal runaway, where the battery keeps re-igniting no matter how much you spray with with foam, e-scooter batteries are extremely low to the ground and any impact with the kerb whilst riding can damage it causing a runaway, plus they're not legal to own privately so there's no real reason to allow them on trains.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I know slightly someone who is a firefighter and he said that if an electric car's battery ignites 10 fire engines are sent and the car has to be monitored for a week in case of re-ignition versus an i.c.e. car, one fire engine and a few hours. Don't know if this is an exaggeration though.

 

[jon0844]

Many cars are now starting to use ithium Ion Phosphate batteries which are considered safer, although I believe there are some compromises in terms of range and charging capabilities.

I am sure some high end e-scooters will already be pretty safe and well designed, but the county lines crew are probably not shelling out a grand or two on one of those, but getting something more akin to a wish.com special.

Sadly, there are now many very cheap and very suspect e-bikes on sale via wish and AliExpress etc. Plus of course a growing number of custom builds, mostly to get around the regulations and limits on a regular e-bike.

I've seen some sellers actually show how to remove the limits on their sales page, although at least these are certified bikes and not custom builds that aren't.

Not that we can necessarily be sure anything imported is certified as China will stamp CE and UKCA on anything and we're not actively checking imports right now...

It's all a bit of a mess really.

 

[talldave]

This issue with the batteries is thermal runaway, where the battery keeps re-igniting no matter how much you spray with with foam, e-scooter batteries are extremely low to the ground and any impact with the kerb whilst riding can damage it causing a runaway, plus they're not legal to own privately so there's no real reason to allow them on trains.

There is no law against owning e-scooters. It's riding them in public that's illegal.

 

[mikeg]

Just had a guy get kicked off a tpe service from York to saltburn for having an e scooter, which apparently is not permitted due to its battery. Is this a national policy on all operators now?

 

[KJCross1983]

Just had a guy get kicked off a tpe service from York to saltburn for having an e scooter, which apparently is not permitted due to its battery. Is this a national policy on all operators now?

TPE banned them from the 1st March 2023

 

[CFRAIL]

Same applies to Southeastern from 1st June

 

[jon0844]

Every TOC will be banning them from June 1st I think, if they hadn't already.

 

[Wezz]

Merseyrail banned e-scooters, Hoverboards and e-skateboards on 30th January, I was thankful as we'd had numerous issues with people becoming abusive when told to stop riding them on the station.

There is no law against owning e-scooters. It's riding them in public that's illegal.

Most still ride them in public, so I think a whole ban on private sales should be brought in.

 

[jon0844]

It's a decades old problem where things are sold that can't be legally used in many cases. There are always get-out clauses by retailers to say 'for personal use' or whatever, even if they then actively promote all the illegal uses.

Before scooters we had the hover boards, and before that the mini motos. And we also had the cards used to hack Sky and Digital TV services in the late 90s and early 00s - which were sold with only one purpose in mind, often with the software and link to codes/ROMs, but with the claim that they were for development purposes.

I can't see how a Government can legislate against such things that a retailer will create a legitimate, if obviously unlikely, use.

What they COULD and SHOULD do is go after the uncertified and unsafe products being imported. Having a CE/UKCA mark does not make something safe when any Chinese company will put this on something for a small fee.

 

[Ediswan]

Before scooters we had the hover boards, and before that the mini motos. And we also had the cards used to hack Sky and Digital TV services in the late 90s and early 00s - which were sold with only one purpose in mind, often with the software and link to codes/ROMs, but with the claim that they were for development purposes.

Or this once popular regulatory bodge.