E Tickets

[Deafdoggie]

In contrast, I could only find Apple Wallet link in the confirmation email sent from Trainline.

I can't remember about the email, but certainly in the app there is a simple button to press to add to wallet.

 

[paul1609]

I'm pretty shocked at SE potentially accommodating this given their ultra right hard-line stance against them, though I suspect they may have had a gun held to their heads when if/when they agreed to it.

There are a few well known exceptions where E/M-tickets can be legitimatly tested onboard SE services and from experience most of their conductors couldn't give a monkeys fart about them and just say "yep, thanks" and carry on. There's a few examples obviously on services between Ashford and Tonbridge where you might legitimatly use an E-ticket in these circumstances like Marshlink from stations to Gatwick or similar where the route Edenbridge/Polegate is permitted and generally this is rarely a problem or any trouble for the passenger. Obviously during disruption on Southern when ticket acceptance is in place with SE then obviously again there's no issue.
The big problem I've experienced and others on here too have in past is when you start/end your journey short at either Hastings or Ashford and revenue staff on the gatelines are less than hospitiable to them. I got refused entry to Ashford with a return portion Rye to Durrington on Sea issued on GWRs app. I normally print my tickets out too but didn't on this occasion. They even tried citing the incorrect quote on the GWR app that states "break of journey not permitted"
In the end to save missing my train, which was hourly I just bought a super off peak single from Ashford to Durrington and immediately logged it as mis-selling on Barclaycard app and the transaction got blocked.
I read a similar instance on here where somebody at Hastings was refused exit from station to break journey.


Would an Anytime single/return any permitted route that's available as an E-ticket not be accepted by Merseyrail then?
Not got any desire to test this out but the walk up fare seems the same between Liverpool SP and Liverpool LS regardless of operator.

Ashford International on a Durrington to Rye ticket is a difficult one because it fails the fare check. The routing point calculator will tell you that Ashford is not an appropriate routing point for a Durrington to Rye route Edenbridge/Polegate because the fare in NFM 64 was higher to Ashford so its quite likely the SE staff were right.

 

[JB_B]

Ashford International on a Durrington to Rye ticket is a difficult one because it fails the fare check. The routing point calculator will tell you that Ashford is not an appropriate routing point for a Durrington to Rye route Edenbridge/Polegate because the fare in NFM 64 was higher to Ashford so its quite likely the SE staff were right.

That's true for the Durrington to Rye taken as a whole but journey planners will divide the journey at the (alternate) via points. For Edenbridge to Rye, Ashford is an appropriate destination routeing point.

 

[paul1609]

That's true for the Durrington to Rye taken as a whole but journey planners will divide the journey at the (alternate) via points. For Edenbridge to Rye, Ashford is an appropriate destination routeing point.

That's why I said it's difficult. However where the routing point calculator has an option to include the route via a specific point which it does in this case it would imply that the fares check must override the routing points applicable to via points, otherwise there would be no point in carrying out a fares check from destination.
Obviously if the OP had an intinary via Edenbridge and Ashford that would override the fares check but its an awful long way round and includes a 1 tph shuttle in the middle (Redhill-Tonbridge) as well as the 1tph Marshlink Train. Its only ever going to come up for a normal if one leg of the Polegate route is closed for whatever reason.

 

[JB_B]

That's why I said it's difficult. However where the routing point calculator has an option to include the route via a specific point which it does in this case it would imply that the fares check must override the routing points applicable to via points, otherwise there would be no point in carrying out a fares check from destination.
Obviously if the OP had an intinary via Edenbridge and Ashford that would override the fares check but its an awful long way round and includes a 1 tph shuttle in the middle (Redhill-Tonbridge) as well as the 1tph Marshlink Train. Its only ever going to come up for a normal if one leg of the Polegate route is closed for whatever reason.

Yes, I can imagine that gateline staff might look askance at this ticket at Ashford.

This is one of the areas where the two parallel routeing-guide worlds diverge (by which I mean the public-facing RG versus the RG data feed/guidance to developers/developer choices.) Very often they're in sync but in some important cases they're not. As we know, if an accredited retailer will sell a ticket for a particular itinerary - as in the OP's case - they should be able to rely on that regardless.

For info, I don't think that "the fares check must override the routing points applicable to via points". I'm pretty certain that rp_calc takes absolutely no account of the semantics of the route code - ie the via points, avoid points, etc.

(Given that rp_calc simply listing the origin and destination RP/RPGs which pass the fares check, and many include/avoid points aren't RPs nor group members, that would be difficult to achieve.)

As far as I know, rp_calc only uses the route code entered so that it can give higher priority (where possible) to route-matched fares.

 

[yorkie]

Oh thank you. I now feel happier using e-ticket especially if it is for a through journey, as against a split ticket.

What puts you off split tickets with e-tickets?

What sort of journeys do you do?

A split ticket retailer will issue all e-tickets in one document, so it's very easy. (Certainly the one I use does; presumably they all do)

 

[mattdickinson]

TfL plan to fit barcode readers to certain gate lines.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ticketing_and_revenue_update_138#incoming-2062279

Over the last couple of years, there have been a few issues raised about barcode format tickets being issued by various Train Operators (TOCs).

It was subsequently confirmed that TOCs should not be issuing barcoded format tickets for through journeys to LU destinations, as we don't currently have the capability to process these on our gates, or to be able to check the validity of a particular barcode.

As TOCs continue to move away from reliance on magnetic stripe ticketing and switch to barcode format tickets, we have recently started to explore the potential installation of barcode readers on gates at around 20 LU stations which are stations that are directly served by NR services:

At this stage Cubic are being engaged to initially develop a design study to identify the best solution for how barcode readers could be integrated into our gates and at the same time, also link to the relevant NR systems that validate each code.

It is likely that we would opt not to fit the equipment to every gate on a particular gateline and at some of the outlying stations this is likely to be combined with plans to remove the magnetic ticket acceptance from certain gates.

At some of the larger sites from the list above, we plan to only upgrade the gates on certain gatelines, where they are most likely to be used by NR customers entering or leaving the station.

 

[XAM2175]

TfL plan to fit barcode readers to certain gate lines.

Well that's nice to see.

I also notice that page 15 of that same document appears to provide information about the new "sTicket" format that one or two members here have been dropping hints about recently, unless they were referring to something else by the same name.

 

[jfollows]

Well that's nice to see.

I also notice that page 15 of that same document appears to provide information about the new "sTicket" format that one or two members here have been dropping hints about recently, unless they were referring to something else by the same name.

Trainline readies barcode season tickets (sTickets)

RAIL 957 May 18 to May 31 pp. 12&13 Trainline has launched its new sTicket product that provides passengers with digital barcode season tickets for the first time. Following a successful trial with Govia Thameslink Railway, the sTicket is due to gain full industry accreditation from the Rail...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[XAM2175]

Trainline readies barcode season tickets (sTickets)

RAIL 957 May 18 to May 31 pp. 12&13 Trainline has launched its new sTicket product that provides passengers with digital barcode season tickets for the first time. Following a successful trial with Govia Thameslink Railway, the sTicket is due to gain full industry accreditation from the Rail...

www.railforums.co.uk

Ah thanks, I'd managed to overlook that.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Ashford International on a Durrington to Rye ticket is a difficult one because it fails the fare check. The routing point calculator will tell you that Ashford is not an appropriate routing point for a Durrington to Rye route Edenbridge/Polegate because the fare in NFM 64 was higher to Ashford so its quite likely the SE staff were right.

Was buses between Ashford and Hastings on the day in question plus there was a tight connection at Hampden Park. The fare from both Ashford and Rye is the same. Did a quick check now. Single without railcard £18.90 anytime or £18.10 off peak. Even set it to route via Ashford/Edenbridge and it will still offer it up as an eticket where as originating it at Ashford obviously won't. It's not just Ashford. People at Hastings have experienced similar on a regular basis being refused entry/exit from station to break journey or start/end journey short.

Considering some ticket retailers now charge a fee to opt for a cardboard ticket if etickets are available, then why should people need to pay extra just to negate possible trouble from belligerent Southeastern gateline staff.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Just tried to buy Eastbourne to Victoria and no option for e ticket?

 

[Argyle 1980]

Just tried to buy Eastbourne to Victoria and no option for e ticket?

Which retailer? It shows as etickets on all the apps I have. It would probably be route specific that one though (via Haywards Heath) Not sure if it's a London Victoria ticket or London Terminals but if it's the latter then won't it also be valid to Charing Cross aswell via and changing London Bridge? Again throwing up the SE eticket anomaly.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not sure I'd say M-Tickets on buses have been entirely without problems. First certainly had an issue a few years ago where there back end provider ended up failing (a ransomware attack from memory) and no M-Tickets could be activated on there Android app. Took a couple of days for it to be completely resolved but people on that first day were definitely refused travel with perfectly valid tickets through no fault of there own. Effectively the customers were told "tough luck" as drivers weren't aware of the problem and the tickets just showed as not activated. By the evening First, at least in West Yorkshire, were effectively allowing free travel to prevent further reputational damage.

There was also a glaring flaw in some of the bus apps that were written by a company called Core3 or something, in that if you did a copy of the Android app + data from one phone to another, or simply back to the same phone, any m-tickets you'd not used at the time of the backup could be used over and over again.

M-tickets probably had their place when operators didn't have live connected devices, which these days is not going to be very many (buses are connected so people/the bus operator can track their location in real-time). Maybe that's why Scotrail is behind if they have staff in very rural locations with poor to no signal on their phones?

My other problem with M-tickets was that if the bus machine time was out, the ticket wouldn't scan. A security measure was that the code keeps changing and encodes the time - and if it doesn't match (within a specific window) that of the bus it shows as invalid! I had great fun convincing the driver it was valid, and establishing that the bus time was out by over 10 minutes.

 

[Argyle 1980]

There was also a glaring flaw in some of the bus apps that were written by a company called Core3 or something, in that if you did a copy of the Android app + data from one phone to another, or simply back to the same phone, any m-tickets you'd not used at the time of the backup could be used over and over again.

M-tickets probably had their place when operators didn't have live connected devices, which these days is not going to be very many (buses are connected so people/the bus operator can track their location in real-time). Maybe that's why Scotrail is behind if they have staff in very rural locations with poor to no signal on their phones?

My other problem with M-tickets was that if the bus machine time was out, the ticket wouldn't scan. A security measure was that the code keeps changing and encodes the time - and if it doesn't match (within a specific window) that of the bus it shows as invalid! I had great fun convincing the driver it was valid, and establishing that the bus time was out by over 10 minutes.

Ticketer bus machines are live to an extent, but it is rather delayed. When you buy a ticket on a ticketer machine on say Plymouth City Bus/Transport for Cornwall or on First Kernow it can take upto half an hour for your payment to be taken off your card or the statutory initial £1 in cases of credit cards. Know it technically makes it possible for a card with insufficient funds to be used. I know it's standard practice for the bus companies to block and hotlist the card for future travel if this happens. Just curious if somebody bought a zone 1 to 4 week ticket off the driver which subsequently bounced, would the bus company block the QR code on the ticket from scanning?
Notice Stagecoach tickets both paper and mobile are not scan ones. Their machines also process cards offline and a merchant voucher is only sent to back once machine is downloaded so no money leaves account for a day or two, longer if a weekend is involved. Also the machines still accept online full auth debit cards but aren't all debit cards technically full auth now?

 

[jon0844]

Uno uses Ticketer and you can watch the buses moving on a map, so I assume they are polling at regular intervals - like every 10-30 seconds. Perhaps operators can customise this, or it is down to the signal quality in an area.. or it's to limit data usage?

I doubt it's the latter as networks can offer SIM cards with unlimited data for £2+VAT per month (e.g. Three) for business accounts, and other networks most likely do similar plans. I assume these are in use to offer Wi-Fi on buses.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Southern..

 

[paul1609]

Was buses between Ashford and Hastings on the day in question plus there was a tight connection at Hampden Park. The fare from both Ashford and Rye is the same. Did a quick check now. Single without railcard £18.90 anytime or £18.10 off peak. Even set it to route via Ashford/Edenbridge and it will still offer it up as an eticket where as originating it at Ashford obviously won't. It's not just Ashford. People at Hastings have experienced similar on a regular basis being refused entry/exit from station to break journey or start/end journey short.

Considering some ticket retailers now charge a fee to opt for a cardboard ticket if etickets are available, then why should people need to pay extra just to negate possible trouble from belligerent Southeastern gateline staff.

I had a period of using e tickets from Appledore down to Portsmouth every week. I've never had a problem with staff letting me out at Ashford or Hastings or with conductors on Southeastern. I have given up using e tickets and returned to Ccst because I had constant problems with the tickets being read on Southern and/or at SWR stations this seems to be especially so for the return portion of Off Peak returns.
In terms of the connections at Hampden Park these are always tight as result of a consequence of trying to maintain the journey times of the previous through service to Brighton but it always works in my experience.
If there is a bus Hastings to Ashford it will always be much quicker for travel to Coastway stations from Rye to go along the coast. Ashford and Edenbridge is an awful long way round. Hastings to Rye also has 2 buses an hour ( Stagecoach 100/101)that go from Rye to Hastings stations often with ticket acceptance.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Southern..

From experience in the early days of Etickets on Southern/Gatwick Express I used to find gated stations without scanners sometimes didn't offer up etickets where as ungated ones did. Worthing was an exception though. No scanners but etickets were available. Probably because the staff there had already seen them for 10 years from First Great Western services.
I know a lot of East Coast way stations were initially excluded from etickets including Eastbourne.
Almost a couple of years ago at Angmering I had an off peak return outward from St Budeaux to Angmering on bog roll ticket and the revenue on the gateline looked at it like "What the hell is that" and he then joked at me and said "what am I supposed to do with that? Wipe my back side with it?" He laughed when I told h they are effectively know as bog roll tickets anyway.
Unless the Southern site and App has been upgraded since I last used it, I seldom use it because in the past it didn't have an option to add tickets to the app. Their customer service were adamant they could be added to wallet on phone. Yes that might of been case with Apple but certainly couldn't add them to Google pay like you can with LNER and Avanti so it was just the pdf you had. The only reason i use the Southern site is because it's the only one that will offer and sell a Plymouth-Worthing/Durrington ticket route Salisbury and allow it to be an itinerary via Clapham Junction from Exeter. All other sites use to throw up the any permitted fare if you tried routing it this way.

I had a period of using e tickets from Appledore down to Portsmouth every week. I've never had a problem with staff letting me out at Ashford or Hastings or with conductors on Southeastern. I have given up using e tickets and returned to Ccst because I had constant problems with the tickets being read on Southern and/or at SWR stations this seems to be especially so for the return portion of Off Peak returns.
In terms of the connections at Hampden Park these are always tight as result of a consequence of trying to maintain the journey times of the previous through service to Brighton but it always works in my experience.
If there is a bus Hastings to Ashford it will always be much quicker for travel to Coastway stations from Rye to go along the coast. Ashford and Edenbridge is an awful long way round. Hastings to Rye also has 2 buses an hour ( Stagecoach 100/101)that go from Rye to Hastings stations often with ticket acceptance.

GWR app gave me the itinerary as fastest route that day, probably because the Victoria-Worthing services were on divert because of quarry line being closed so were stopping at Redhill. From experience in past the connections on the journey in opposite direction say from West Coast way stations to Kent were a hell of a lot more favourable than in the opposite direction where there were 58 and 29 minute connections at Tonbridge and Redhill respectively where as on the opposite direction it was only a few minutes at each, though the Tonbridge connection was tight at 4 minutes IIRC.
Use to use the 100 from Hastings to Hythe/Folkestone a lot if I missed the marshlink connection anyway as I've got a Cornwall Council pass and can travel free.

 

[paul1609]

From experience in the early days of Etickets on Southern/Gatwick Express I used to find gated stations without scanners sometimes didn't offer up etickets where as ungated ones did. Worthing was an exception though. No scanners but etickets were available. Probably because the staff there had already seen them for 10 years from First Great Western services.
I know a lot of East Coast way stations were initially excluded from etickets including Eastbourne.
Almost a couple of years ago at Angmering I had an off peak return outward from St Budeaux to Angmering on bog roll ticket and the revenue on the gateline looked at it like "What the hell is that" and he then joked at me and said "what am I supposed to do with that? Wipe my back side with it?" He laughed when I told h they are effectively know as bog roll tickets anyway.
Unless the Southern site and App has been upgraded since I last used it, I seldom use it because in the past it didn't have an option to add tickets to the app. Their customer service were adamant they could be added to wallet on phone. Yes that might of been case with Apple but certainly couldn't add them to Google pay like you can with LNER and Avanti so it was just the pdf you had. The only reason i use the Southern site is because it's the only one that will offer and sell a Plymouth-Worthing/Durrington ticket route Salisbury and allow it to be an itinerary via Clapham Junction from Exeter. All other sites use to throw up the any permitted fare if you tried routing it this way.


GWR app gave me the itinerary as fastest route that day, probably because the Victoria-Worthing services were on divert because of quarry line being closed so were stopping at Redhill. From experience in past the connections on the journey in opposite direction say from West Coast way stations to Kent were a hell of a lot more favourable than in the opposite direction where there were 58 and 29 minute connections at Tonbridge and Redhill respectively where as on the opposite direction it was only a few minutes at each, though the Tonbridge connection was tight at 4 minutes IIRC.
Use to use the 100 from Hastings to Hythe/Folkestone a lot if I missed the marshlink connection anyway as I've got a Cornwall Council pass and can travel free.

Personally I think that if you were genuinely travelling to Rye even with the Worthing to Victoria train calling at Redhill it would be quicker going via Polegate. Obviously you can force a via Edenbridge route but this is not what a normal traveller would do. To suggest that large numbers of people are being inconvienced because you are forcing an obscure route that is permitted by electronic route planners but not technically the routing guide and then suggesting that its a crusade by Southeastern against e tickets is a little silly imho. I'd suggest that what you are actually doing is trying to force an eTicket issue for a journey to Ashford a flow that's not set up for e tickets. The reason Southeastern haven't enabled e tickets is that without TfL acceptance its going to be a real niche market for them. A niche market that nobody was willing to fund.
Now that Southeastern is a brand operated by OLR like LNER and Northern that stance will likely change.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Personally I think that if you were genuinely travelling to Rye even with the Worthing to Victoria train calling at Redhill it would be quicker going via Polegate. Obviously you can force a via Edenbridge route but this is not what a normal traveller would do. To suggest that large numbers of people are being inconvienced because you are forcing an obscure route that is permitted by electronic route planners but not technically the routing guide and then suggesting that its a crusade by Southeastern against e tickets is a little silly imho. I'd suggest that what you are actually doing is trying to force an eTicket issue for a journey to Ashford a flow that's not set up for e tickets. The reason Southeastern haven't enabled e tickets is that without TfL acceptance its going to be a real niche market for them. A niche market that nobody was willing to fund.
Now that Southeastern is a brand operated by OLR like LNER and Northern that stance will likely change.

Like I've alluded. The day in question was replacement buses between Ashford and Hastings so I sensibly checked journey planners and took the fastest option that was valid for my ticket which was from Ashford. No route or via a station was entered.
If you search a journey Ham Street to Gatwick it will offer you XX33 via Eastbourne and XX02 via Ashford and Edenbridge, both with similar journey times. Again without a via/avoid route being entered and again another example of etickets being offered for SE services and potential for trouble. Though that is probably unlikely now as SE are now selling etickets for other operators. There were several twitter feeds in the past plus posts here where people were experiencing trouble with etickets and Southeastern so definitely not a crusade.
You say it's a niche market for SE but several operators have even closer ties and station connections with TFL than SE do (GWR, Greater Anglia, Chiltern, LNWR/WMT etc) and it isn't too much of an issue for them neither is it for GTR and SWR

 

[paul1609]

I rather think you are moving the Goal posts from Durrington to Rye to Ham Street to Gatwick but most Journey Planners will show connections on the up Marshlink train at xx 02 to Gatwick as via St Pancras or London Bridge as that is the fastest route. This requires a more expensive ticket which is not available as an e ticket. Yes it is possible to go via Edenbridge but that requires changes at Ashford, Tonbridge and Redhill and apart from a couple of connections to school trains takes over 3 hours.

 

[BingMan]

That's not the case. Ticket inspections can and do take place mid-journey on buses.

In ten years of regular bus travel on High Peak Buses I have never seen a ticket inspector.

Oh at least a few thousand more...

How do I buy an e-ticket form my Norther Journey?

 

[ainsworth74]

How do I buy an e-ticket form my Norther Journey?

Trainsplit.co.uk is quite a good website to use and sells e-tickets, you can use Northern's own website, or pretty much any TOC you like like LNER, TPE and similar. I'd avoid Trainline for anything other than on the day travel as whilst their interface is very slick they charge a booking fee for buying in advance. Trainsplit will charge but only a portion of any saving they make for you through split tickets (so you're still saving money just not as much as doing the legwork yourself). If there's no saving then there is no charge.

 

[miklcct]

you can use Northern's own website

Northern doesn't sell e-tickets last time I used it. It only does m-tickets and TOD.

 

[Deafdoggie]

How do I buy an e-ticket form my Norther Journey?

It's often worth using trainline for an intial search, as their website and app is far superior to any TOC offering, particularly if you're not used to looking for rail tickets. They will offer e-tickets on any journey that permits them (they aren't available on all journeys). They also offer split tickets and will do it without the need to apply any special requests or permissions.
In some circumstances they charge a modest booking fee, (but never for sameday travel), the fee also varies depending on if you're on the website or app, if you want to avoid this (if they're charging you one), simply note their ticket selection and buy it from any TOC website, none of whom charge any fees. LNER is probably the best, particularly if you want e-tickets. If there are no advance tickets in your journey, there's no advantage in buying before the day, only disadvantages, so it's best to wait till the day of travel. Of course, if Advance tickets are involved, this isn't always possible.
E-tickets from most (all?) providers can be downloaded to your device, stored in Google/Apple wallet, printed off, shown in the app or shown in the email. So they're very flexible. Just don't get confused and buy m-tickets! However, m-tickets are not offered by Trainline or LNER.

 

[mmh]

I see. From what I could see the screenshot looked the same as the e-tickets I get from LNER. What do Northern m-tickets look like?

The TFW app, on Android at least, disables the ability to take screenshots.

I was a big sceptic about all forms of electronic tickets. I've changed my mind since using them regularly. I was welded to the opinion I needed a paper ticket in case I lost my phone, but if I lose my phone I'll have also lost my paper tickets as they'll be in my phone case! So if I've printed out an e-ticket, that will be gone too.

My own experience is that e-tickets are more awkwardly delivered. I bought one once from trainsplit, and from one of the two emails (why?) I received I chose the option to add to Google Wallet, or whatever it's called. Which worked, but then when I came to look at the ticket I found I had no app called Wallet, and it appears to be some magical thing which I don't understand at all. Perhaps iPhones give a better user experience.

Conversely, I have had zero problems using all manner of tickets as M-tickets in the TFW app. I bought 2 this afternoon, in the past I would have invariably used TOD.

 

[BingMan]

The TFW app, on Android at least, disables the ability to take screenshots.

I was a big sceptic about all forms of electronic tickets. I've changed my mind since using them regularly. I was welded to the opinion I needed a paper ticket in case I lost my phone, but if I lose my phone I'll have also lost my paper tickets as they'll be in my phone case! So if I've printed out an e-ticket, that will be gone too.

The fact that most trains and buses have charging points removes the worry of loosing power

 

[miklcct]

The fact that most trains and buses have charging points removes the worry of loosing power

This is not true in my experience. For example, I see no charging points on London Overground trains. There are also some Southern trains without charging points as well.

 

[Alex365Dash]

This is not true in my experience. For example, I see no charging points on London Overground trains. There are also some Southern trains without charging points as well.

London Overground's Class 710 Aventras have USB charging points at the ends of the through coaches, whilst Southern's Electrostar refurbishment program is fitting USB charging points and plug sockets in standard class (on the unrefurbished 377s, charging points can only be found in First Class, consisting solely of a plug socket).