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East Coast Open Access decisions made: First Group and VTEC win whilst GC lose

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IanXC

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Just to clear up a couplenof things, the fill transcript of a meeting held as part of this determination states that First's East Coast Trains Ltd, will accept interavailable tickets, will not price walk on TOC specific tickets, but will operate on an 'Advance on demand' basis as its business model.

Additionally the stock will apparently have a similar layout to existing IEP proposals, except the lack of First Class.
 
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absolutelymilk

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First's East Coast Trains Ltd will accept interavailable tickets, will not price walk on TOC specific tickets, but will operate on an 'Advance on demand' basis as its business model.

Could you clarify what this means exactly? So if someone has an anytime ticket with Virgin, will they be able to use it on the First services?
 

ainsworth74

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Could you clarify what this means exactly? So if someone has an anytime ticket with Virgin, will they be able to use it on the First services?

If you have a ticket routed 'VTEC Only' then you will not be able to use it on First (or any other operator). If you have a ticket routed 'Any Permitted' then you will be able to use it on First. What is being said is that the new First Group operator won't price its own 'First Edinburgh Only' walk on tickets (i.e. Anytime, Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak) which would, due to the restriction, only be valid on their own services. Instead they'll be doing Advance Purchase tickets (so tied to a specific train).
 

HH

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If you have a ticket routed 'VTEC Only' then you will not be able to use it on First (or any other operator). If you have a ticket routed 'Any Permitted' then you will be able to use it on First. What is being said is that the new First Group operator won't price its own 'First Edinburgh Only' walk on tickets (i.e. Anytime, Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak) which would, due to the restriction, only be valid on their own services. Instead they'll be doing Advance Purchase tickets (so tied to a specific train).

Which means that they won't be breaking any moulds. If you were cynical (god forbid) then you might think that it suggested that they didn't think they could fill their trains with their own offer, and therefore needed the inter-available passengers to make up the numbers.

I was hoping that someone had the guts to go "airline stylee".

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Secondly won't this abstract revenue from VTEC and by offering a budget service possibly cause a race to the bottom as VTEC try to compete. Lowering their fares on that route, increasing them on others, axing buffets, lowering staff numbers, higher density seating to cram more people in etc etc.

It will abstract revenue. But it will also grow revenue. According to ORR it won't be mostly abstractive (it easily beat their measure last I looked).

Moreover, what it abstracts will be the cheapest seats, i.e. those generating the least revenue. It would be very foolish for VTEC to compete by reducing their quality and competing on price only. Even more so given that they are already struggling on the revenue front.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Rather a strange take on this from the RMT:http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-first-group-runing-trains-on-east-coast120516/

The RMT appear to believe that the introduction of a new "low-cost" service with an average fare of £25 is "the green light to wack up fares"??

They also appear to be most unhappy with Open Access generally. Do Grand Central and Hull Trains not employ RMT members? Would RMT like these TOC's to be closed down and their members sacked?

Confusing stuff!

They've always been opposed to Open Access. The reason is that there are no historic agreements, no hangovers from BR days. It's all new, clean and approved by lawyers. Small outfits tend to have great relations with staff and many employees don't see the point of union. From RMT's POV, what's to like about OA?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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They've always been opposed to Open Access. The reason is that there are no historic agreements, no hangovers from BR days. It's all new, clean and approved by lawyers. Small outfits tend to have great relations with staff and many employees don't see the point of union. From RMT's POV, what's to like about OA?

It also keeps the ECML at least partially "out of public hands" until 2031.
The Corbynistas will not like that.
 

WatcherZero

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Industry opinion today seems to be this is an ORCATS raid and the Open Access brigade in Government have defeated the pragmatists.

Issue seems to be that even if the train ran empty between the couple of stations it calls at that it would rate so much higher in the ORCATS formula due to speed and low ticket price that it would receive a hefty chunk of fares sold by Stagecoach. They don't even have to advertise or actively try and sell tickets just operate the train services for as low a cost as possible and the money just rolls in.

Lawyers are being consulted.
 
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Simon11

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Industry opinion today seems to be this is an ORCATS raid and the Open Access brigade in Government have defeated the pragmatists.

Issue seems to be that even if the train ran empty between the couple of stations it calls at that it would rate so much higher in the ORCATS formula due to speed and low ticket price that it would receive a hefty chunk of fares sold by Stagecoach. They don't even have to advertise or actively try and sell tickets just operate the train services for as low a cost as possible and the money just rolls in.

Lawyers are being consulted.

Low ticket price has nothing to do with ORCATS......:roll:

How many people travel between Edinburgh and London, travelling on an off-peak/ Anytime ticket? People making that journey are more likely to plan in advance due to the distance/ time of journey, thus reducing the size of the ORCATS pot.
 

Bletchleyite

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Just to clear up a couplenof things, the fill transcript of a meeting held as part of this determination states that First's East Coast Trains Ltd, will accept interavailable tickets, will not price walk on TOC specific tickets, but will operate on an 'Advance on demand' basis as its business model.

Interesting. What that of course means is that their fares are capped at the Super Off Peak Return. Which might make the business model a bit difficult, as the "low cost airline" model also involves being able to crank the fares right up at times of high demand. And if they take the "sly" route of their website only selling the Advances, people will get cross when they find out they have overpaid for an inferior ticket.

Are they going to have compulsory reservations to avoid overcrowding of the short trains, or are they just going to trust that those with walk-ups are likely just to use VTEC?
 
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Failed Unit

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Although it doesn't help Scunthorpe but Grimsby may be worth focusing its efforts on getting the Lincoln service extended.

I would hope that when this all gets completed the Grimsby - Newark shuttle will end and be replaced with Grimsby - Nottingham (and beyond) with a good connection for London at Lincoln.

However sadly experience tells us that won't happen. All you need to do is look at Peterborough - Lincoln - Doncaster which still is the same timetable as the 1990s despite line improvements and a recast of the ECML

One for a different thread I suspect, but why doesn't the TPE service stop at Cramlington and replace the Northern one?
 

Failed Unit

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From a personal point of view it will be purely product drive to if I use first or stagecoach. Often do Stevenage - Edinburgh. First would tick the box perfectly, but if the experience isn't good i will still use Virgin. It is a circa 4 hour journey after all. Just like with air travel of a similar time duration. Prefer to pay more for better leg room.
 

IanXC

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Are they going to have compulsory reservations to avoid overcrowding of the short trains, or are they just going to trust that those with walk-ups are likely just to use VTEC?

The question wasn't asked specifically, but my reading was, the only "(First) East Coast Only" tickets will be Advances with mandatory reservations. They did confirm they would accept interavailable tickets, but whether one could purchase one with a reservation wasn't covered.
 

Bletchleyite

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The question wasn't asked specifically, but my reading was, the only "(First) East Coast Only" tickets will be Advances with mandatory reservations. They did confirm they would accept interavailable tickets, but whether one could purchase one with a reservation wasn't covered.


Or whether a reservation would be required to use one? Would that affect the ORCATS raid?
 

HH

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Industry opinion today seems to be this is an ORCATS raid and the Open Access brigade in Government have defeated the pragmatists.

Issue seems to be that even if the train ran empty between the couple of stations it calls at that it would rate so much higher in the ORCATS formula due to speed and low ticket price that it would receive a hefty chunk of fares sold by Stagecoach. They don't even have to advertise or actively try and sell tickets just operate the train services for as low a cost as possible and the money just rolls in.

Lawyers are being consulted.

This is rubbish. The First trains are running slower so ORCATS is not going to favour them. Also it's always open to challenge ORCATS, get counts made and then ORCATS will be adjusted.

First will abstract some revenue, but they'll do it mostly by offering cheaper tickets, which is nothing to do with ORCATS. Some of the remainder is by offering improved journey opportunities from some stations, like the Stevenage-Edinburgh pairing.

Now the Alliance bids were a different matter.
 

IanXC

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Or whether a reservation would be required to use one? Would that affect the ORCATS raid?

From the context of the discussion it was clear that a reservation was not mandatory, and if that were restricting the ORCATS that would have been used as a defence to VTEC concerns.
 

londonbridge

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One of my friends who's not all that clued up on the railways wants to know why it will take five years to start the service. Any laymans terms in which I could explain it to him?
 

pemma

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One of my friends who's not all that clued up on the railways wants to know why it will take five years to start the service. Any laymans terms in which I could explain it to him?

If you acquired the land to build a shop and received planning permission, how long before it's up and running? You need to get the shop built, buy the stock, recruit the staff and train them before you can open to the public. It's similar with railways.
 

Bletchleyite

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One of my friends who's not all that clued up on the railways wants to know why it will take five years to start the service. Any laymans terms in which I could explain it to him?

There's a long waiting time for AT300s to be built, as the order books are full. I'd imagine most of the other business functions could be put in place within a year or so.
 

Observer

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Obviously got a lack of route knowledge here but will these be good under the wires at all time or will they be procuring bi-modes instead?
 

Tetchytyke

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Industry opinion today seems to be this is an ORCATS raid and the Open Access brigade in Government have defeated the pragmatists.

How many people travel on the East Coast route using fully inter-available tickets? I'm guessing not that many, with the majority of leisure tickets being Advance tickets whose revenue doesn't go anywhere near ORCATS.

First should have to accept inter-available tickets, it is supposed to be a national rail network, and it is only right that they get paid for that acceptance.

VTEC will simply have to be more astute with their pricing, rather than the current price-gouging practice of setting Advance singles at half the Super OffPeak Return price, less £1. The more people VTEC tempt on to Advance tickets, the less revenue they lose through ORCATS.

Stagecoach are currently so uncompetitive on price that British Airways routinely undercut them from Newcastle, Edinburgh and Leeds/Bradford, never mind the low-cost carriers. First's offering will help rail be more competitive against air and road travel. That's only a good thing for the industry. The only person who's against it is Martin Griffiths because he won't be able to price-gouge his way to another Aston Martin.
 
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GrimsbyPacer

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Surely the Alliance Rail plan was better?
It had two branches in the North & an extension to Edinburgh aswell.
So the Edinburgh only option was clearly the worst for passengers.
Clearly the government doesn't care about their 'Northern Powerhouse' plan.
 

NotATrainspott

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Obviously got a lack of route knowledge here but will these be good under the wires at all time or will they be procuring bi-modes instead?

Yes, Edinburgh to London Kings Cross has been electrified fully for around 25 years now. The electric Class 801 trains being bought for use on this service will be equipped with one diesel engine but this will only be used in the event of service disruption, or to shunt around non-electrified sidings.
 

D6975

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VTEC will simply have to be more astute with their pricing, rather than the current price-gouging practice of setting Advance singles at half the Super OffPeak Return price, less £1. The more people VTEC tempt on to Advance tickets, the less revenue they lose through ORCATS.
Where did you get that formula from?

KGX - LDS is 104.30 Super off peak return.
halve it and take a pound off and you get roughly 51.00
An advance single to Leeds goes down to 14.50 at its cheapest.
 

43074

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Now we need the First service to stop at York.

Their product is about tempting people off low cost airlines between Edinburgh, Newcastle & London, so I don't think it should - OK there isn't a huge time penalty involved in stopping but I should think rail already has a pretty high market share of the York to London market anyway - the main competitor is the car in any case, there isn't a convenient airport nearby - and going North there will be plenty of other options available: 2 TPE, 2 XC & 3 VTEC to Newcastle every hour, 4 of which will go to Edinburgh.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely the Alliance Rail plan was better?
It had two branches in the North & an extension to Edinburgh aswell.
So the Edinburgh only option was clearly the worst for passengers.
Clearly the government doesn't care about their 'Northern Powerhouse' plan.

The VTEC services will benefit a large part of the North anyway - Bradford, Middlesbrough & Harrogate will each get through services to London every other hour, Leeds services will be faster, and Skipton, Huddersfield and Sunderland will keep their VTEC services; there are plenty of benefits across the North without the Alliance proposal.
 

FQTV

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Where did you get that formula from?

KGX - LDS is 104.30 Super off peak return.
halve it and take a pound off and you get roughly 51.00
An advance single to Leeds goes down to 14.50 at its cheapest.

I think that what ArcticTroll is talking about is the real-world situation, which is this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7hxf56tpv-CQUdLQnc1dE9nMjg/view?usp=sharing

It's not the hypothetical lowest Advance fare; it's what they're actually charging.

The screengrab shows services on which a Super Off Peak Return at £104.30 is valid next Monday (except the down 18:03 and 18:33). However, already, most of the ups and some of the downs are £51 ADV, ie half the SOPR less £1.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This is rubbish. The First trains are running slower

How do you know that?
The ORR letter mentions a plan for First trains to be overtaken by VTEC but then dismisses it as a likely outcome.
They'll have to be pretty quick to get to Edinburgh by 1000 as promised in their PR.
Which begs the question: why don't VTEC offer an first arrival earlier than 1122?
VTWC will have you in Glasgow by 1036.
 

sprinterguy

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They'll have to be pretty quick to get to Edinburgh by 1000 as promised in their PR.
The first First departure of the day from King's Cross is proposed to be at 05:30. From the CH2M report, page 6-52:
Stakeholders have additionally questioned the viability of First’s proposed 05:30 departure from King’s Cross. Our modelling suggests an average weekday load factor (ratio of passengers to seats) on departure from Stevenage of around 67 per cent (just under 270 people). We think that is a reasonable estimate given that there is a significant current Anglo-Scottish airline market at that time of day, and given that the First service would be the only available rail departure at the same time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The ORR letter mentions a plan for First trains to be overtaken by VTEC but then dismisses it as a likely outcome.
Under option 16, considered in detail in appendix H of the CH2M report, which removes the overtaking of First open access services by VTEC ones in the southbound direction, First services have been timed at either 4 hours 5 minutes or 4 hours 2 minutes, depending on whether 2 or 3 intermediate stops are included, between London and Edinburgh against the 3 hours 59 minutes of the fast VTEC service as part of the full IEP timetable (option 8). The difference is minimal, although they were proposed to typically be 9 (northbound) and 10 (southbound) minutes slower under option 7 which as you rightly say, has been largely disregarded.
 
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ainsworth74

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Surely the Alliance Rail plan was better?
It had two branches in the North & an extension to Edinburgh aswell.
So the Edinburgh only option was clearly the worst for passengers.
Clearly the government doesn't care about their 'Northern Powerhouse' plan.

Okay, I think you've been told this before but, for the avoidance of doubt, the ORR are not a part of Government they are operationally independent from Government. This decision was not made by the Government. The Government are represented by the DfT in the consultation and discussion exercises undertaken by ORR. Are you now clear on that?

So then we turn your question. The ORR reasoning (as laid out here) is very clear and understandable but to aid your understanding I shall pullout some key parts. Firstly with regards to GNER to Edinburgh:

This application was modelled as option 2 in the CH2M report. The results for this option excluded the costs of necessary investment in tilt capability. GNER suggested these costs might be around £30-35m (this and other values being in 2010 prices, unless stated otherwise). Network Rail declined to offer a view. Our view was that this was likely to be a very low estimate. When the NPV (+£46m) was adjusted for these costs, it was likely the option would have a near-zero or negative NPV. Further, we considered other operators would be unlikely to make use of the tilt capability for the foreseeable future, we did not identify any further material positive impacts that were excluded by the modelling, and we considered a less frequent service (as suggested by GNER to us as potentially viable) would probably have a lower NPV, due to the fixed nature of the necessary infrastructure costs.

(My bold)

So, as we can see, GNER to Edinburgh, due to the capital investment required by their bid, were most likely going to, at best, represent a break even in terms of the value added by their operation. Hardly a ringing endorsement when once considers that First Edinburgh on the other hand:

The NPV for option 16 was significant (+£77m) and the NPA ratio was above our 0.3 threshold. NPV per path was also comparable to other options, which was notable given off-peak paths are typically used for less valuable services.

So First Edinburgh are going to be bringing a boost of £77m to the network rather than, at best, breaking even.

Then if we look at Cleethorpes and West Yorkshire:

This application was modelled as option 1 in the CH2M report. The option had a strong positive NPV (+£185m), in part reflecting new direct services between London and Cleethorpes, Grimsby and Scunthorpe, and services to a new station proposed for East Leeds. The NPV was of a comparable scale to the VTEC core (option 3, +£198m) and the additional net benefits from moving from VTEC’s core to its full application (an increase of £182m). The benefits per path used were also similar. These differences did not provide a strong basis for preferring any of these options over the others, in light of inevitable modelling uncertainties.

(My bold)

On the face of it good so far! Big positive value so things are looking good but when we drill down into it:

However, our view was that option 1 would result in significant absolute levels of revenue abstraction, modelled at £44m p.a. On franchise expiry and re-franchising, this would probably affect the Secretary of State’s funds by several hundred million pounds in NPV terms. Shorter-term, the franchise agreement could lead to these costs falling to VTEC, for the last few years of the franchise (noting uncertainties around when services would start).

So it does add value bit it does this by nabbing £44m of revenue from VTEC and when you consider the ORR's statutory duties to protect the Secretary of States funds they are left with little choice but to reject. Particularly when you consider that a lot of the West Yorkshire benefits will be delivered by VTEC in any case.

Plus the ORR make, what I think, is a very telling statement about Cleethorpes:

These financial impacts would have been reduced had the application focused on serving (say) just the Cleethorpes line – this line has no direct services to London at the moment and we have previously approved applications whose main impact is to provide such new direct services.

If that isn't the ORR saying 'if they had bid for paths to serve Cleethorpes separate to the bid for West Yorkshire we would have approved the Cleethorpes service' then I don't not what they were saying there!

So GNERs services were either a) not going to add value or b) abstract large amount of revenue whilst First Edinburgh are adding significant value and whilst they do abstract the level isn't too high (more than the 0.3 ratio that the ORR require).

Therefore it seems perfectly clear to me that GNERs applications would have been, by far, the worst choice to approve by the ORR.
 

Tetchytyke

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Where did you get that formula from?

KGX - LDS is 104.30 Super off peak return.
halve it and take a pound off and you get roughly 51.00
An advance single to Leeds goes down to 14.50 at its cheapest.

I am talking about what VTEC are routinely charging in the real world, which may or may not have any relevance to the cheapest AP tiers.

I've attached a screengrab for Newcastle to London return, next weekend. As you'll see, all the AP tickets are priced at £64 single, which is £128 return, or £2.30 less than the super off-peak return.
 

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FQTV

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I think that what ArcticTroll is talking about is the real-world situation, which is this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7hxf56tpv-CQUdLQnc1dE9nMjg/view?usp=sharing

It's not the hypothetical lowest Advance fare; it's what they're actually charging.

The screengrab shows services on which a Super Off Peak Return at £104.30 is valid next Monday (except the down 18:03 and 18:33). However, already, most of the ups and some of the downs are £51 ADV, ie half the SOPR less £1.

I am talking about what VTEC are routinely charging in the real world, which may or may not have any relevance to the cheapest AP tiers.

I've attached a screengrab for Newcastle to London return, next weekend. As you'll see, all the AP tickets are priced at £64 single, which is £128 return, or £2.30 less than the super off-peak return.

Same hymnsheets; different sermon :D.
 
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